Broker experiences?

[geoleo]

Just like in any other profession, there are above overage and below average brokers. I just came back from another boat hunting trip and most brokers were frank and open. One even volunteered major accident history that was not obvious.

My beef is more with the absentee owners not fixing even small issues that detract from the overall appearance of the boat. For example a major leak destroying expensive woodwork. And its going to rain for the next 6 months here in the PNW. Another owner professionally redecorated the interior and removed all hour meters for both engines and both generators. There were none in the engine room either.
Nobody seems to be keeping maintenance logs anymore. I'd be happy with a simple Excel spreadsheet or some of the recent major bills. Nope, owners can't be bothered.

Many maintenance logs are faked and made up all at once.

 

[geoleo]

If you walk into a restaurant and ask---"Is the food good here"?

 

[sunchaser]

Wow! Preaching to the choir on that one. When I inquired about maintenance logs, at sea logs and operator manuals, I may have well been speaking gibberish. And when I insisted on cycling every component on board, I was greeted with outright disbelief. I walked.

Unless there is a bonfide offer, I would not allow any cycling or on off by tire kickers. Each boat is different and serious damage can occur by lookers with unknown skills.

Regarding logs, they should be easily available upon request by a serious looker. I know boats for sale where on board records have disappeared when lookers were onboard. For larger vessels with complex systems, a disappearance of records can be a disaster.

Six years ago I had a serious offer on our vessel. All records were available. But, no broker was involved. A yard manager who knows our vessel very well showed the vessel, no broker. No worries about damage or theft with the yard guy there. It was a partial trade for a larger vessel that did not pass muster.

My point in all of this BS is a serious buyer can be discerned very quickly with the information gates then opened. It is not unusual that a bonfide offer says all equipment is in good working order, except X Y and Z. Anything else found not working at time of sea trial will be fixed by seller.

 

[salishpaddler]

Unless there is a bonfide offer, I would not allow any cycling or on off by tire kickers. Each boat is different and serious damage can occur by lookers with unknown skills.

Regarding logs, they should be easily available upon request by a serious looker. I know boats for sale where on board records have disappeared when lookers were onboard. For larger vessels with complex systems, a disappearance of records can be a disaster.

Six years ago I had a serious offer on our vessel. All records were available. But, no broker was involved. A yard manager who knows our vessel very well showed the vessel, no broker. No worries about damage or theft with the yard guy there. It was a partial trade for a larger vessel that did not pass muster.

My point in all of this BS is a serious buyer can be discerned very quickly with the information gates then opened. It is not unusual that a bonfide offer says all equipment is in good working order, except X Y and Z. Anything else found not working at time of sea trial will be fixed by seller.

I should have been more clear. I had expressed my intent to have all of those issues addressed in the course of the survey, by the professional surveyor, after the seller received my deposit. My contingencies stated that all safety or Immediate Action shortcomings would be rectified by the seller or there would be a commensurate reduction in the sales price; all other less critical shortcomings would be addressed separately. The fact that the seller's broker was so taken aback by my intention to conduct a rigorous survey of every system on my dime and examine all documentation was sufficient for me to abandon that boat. This was a boat that was, and still is, being represented as in "Bristol Condition". And still remains unsold.

 

[JustBob]

We got so lucky. Our broker is probably the most professional sales person I have ever met in ANY industry let alone the marine industry. I now consider him a good friend and he continues to help us out with the boat. And everyone I have talked with that works with him says the same. Scott Hauck of Hampton Yacht Group in Seattle (but he works with buyer/sellers all over the country).

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

We are currently looking for another boat. when a boat that is of interest to us is located our buyers broker will review the listing then send us sold boat data on similar boats. If everything checks out we do a facetime inspection of the boat with him. If the boat still passes muster I fly up and inspect the boat in person if we make an offer on the boat, our broker works with us to determine the offering price. Even though I've owned boats for well over 40 years and do most of my own maintenance my knowledge base as an owner is no where close to his knowledge base, he has been around all manner of boats 5 days a week for at least 30 years. He has attended literally thousands of surveys so he knows what to look for and areas of concern and has a very realistic sense of the value of an given boat.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

ok, I'll play. We recently purchased our first big boat, and used a buyers broker - Jim Cash with Turner Marine in Mobile. We were very satisfied with the attention and follow up we received - this was not a 'pricey' boat, but Jim was very professional and patient with us as we looked at several boats. And we were successful in getting the boat we wanted, with his help. We are satisfied customers

 

[sunchaser]

Salish
A few days ago when you mentioned the word "Bristol" I thought really. Few are, and those at are sell very quickly and often are never listed.

In the past year two vessels I wanted to chase truly were Bristol and had pending offers within a week, before I could even view them. One in fact sold sight unseen to a party in England.

 

[Salish Nomad]

My wife and I are working on our third transaction with Chuck Seaman @ Seattle Yachts, Anacortes WA brokerage. Chuck is first class, and I would recommend him without reservation. I have worked with three other brokers in Anacortes who were also excellent.

 

[salishpaddler]

Salish
A few days ago when you mentioned the word "Bristol" I thought really. Few are, and those at are sell very quickly and often are never listed.

In the past year two vessels I wanted to chase truly were Bristol and had pending offers within a week, before I could even view them. One in fact sold sight unseen to a party in England.

Right you are! Which is why my survey was going to be so intense with stringent contingencies. The fact that the selling broker at Port Gardner balked was a red flag to me. I challenged him to demonstrate it's what he represented it to be, stating that a reputable broker selling a boat that's labeled "Bristol" should be eager to demonstrate it. He refused and rejected the sales contract. I called him out as fraudulently representing the boat. The boat still sits in the slip with no takers.

 

[Antares]

I have known the brokers a Port Gardner for several years and have sold a boat through them. I was very happy with the way things were represented as I wanted to make sure any prospective buyers had an accurate sense of the condition of my boat. I made it clear I also would reject any offer that was way lowball or had unrealistic conditions.

Survey findings are subject to negotiation but I would not agree to fix any findings prior to the survey. Anything can happen but it sounds like Salish Paddler may be unfamiliar with the norms of the survey and buying process or perhaps there was a seller like me that would not even accept an offer that was not within reasonable parameters.

 

[Donsan]

Which is why my survey was going to be so intense with stringent contingencies. The fact that the selling broker at Port Gardner balked was a red flag to me. I challenged him to demonstrate it's what he represented it to be, stating that a reputable broker selling a boat that's labeled "Bristol" should be eager to demonstrate it. He refused and rejected the sales contract. I called him out as fraudulently representing the boat. The boat still sits in the slip with no takers.

Do not believe a broker can reject a sales contract offer unless the seller has directed him to do so if they are not up to the sellers criteria of reasonable offer and conditions. You should not be blaming the broker for that.

 

[ghost]

I have known the brokers a Port Gardner for several years and have sold a boat through them. I was very happy with the way things were represented as I wanted to make sure any prospective buyers had an accurate sense of the condition of my boat. I made it clear I also would reject any offer that was way lowball or had unrealistic conditions.



Survey findings are subject to negotiation but I would not agree to fix any findings prior to the survey. Anything can happen but it sounds like Salish Paddler may be unfamiliar with the norms of the survey and buying process or perhaps there was a seller like me that would not even accept an offer that was not within reasonable parameters.

This. I kind of detected the same tone, but was not sure and did not want to suggest it initially.

There is a difference in finding survey issues and making an adjusted offer and specifying in the contract that every last “as of yet unknown” thing will be fixed. I don’t ever want to get into a contractual pissing match with someone that is intent on simply making a point on top of ambiguous language.

I think in your zeal to demonstrate that the seller should not try to take advantage of you, you may have unintentionally, but solidly crossed the line into the territory of not being someone who is going to respond in good faith.

Plenty of owners have some notion of their depreciating asset up on a pedestal. Often they won’t let it go at the right price, sometimes for years. But that doesn’t mean that you can somehow trick him into a contractual war because the seller used the word “Bristol”. Sorry, no. Nobody is going to agree with that, ever. You have to get the seller to agree that his boat is worth less, and it has to be his idea, and a single step no-negotiation just discount contract is not going to do it. It only makes you look equally unreasonable, not just on this boat, but if I was that broker I would be advising my other clients that they might want to be careful too.

I once had a house I was selling come back with an initially higher offer but their appraisal came back with not too many items but one of their negotiating points was to call out the broken light bulb in a closet. Their agent even chuckled and said something like “not to be unreasonable, but...”. I rejected the offer with no counter. The money would have worked. I just won’t ever get into a contract with someone trying to make a point. That’s not what we were there for, and it’s only going to cloud the real issues.

 

[sunchaser]

In my boat buying experiences the seller plays a bigger role in the inevitable film flam than the broker. About a month ago we were seriously interested in a vessel that upon viewing was not acceptable. The questions we had were tossed back to the owner. The responses were, well, strange. The broker did his best to cover the owner. Not an easy job.

 

[BandB]

A lot of sellers and a lot of buyers don't engage in what I'd call "Good Faith Negotiations."

As a seller, if I felt a buyer was playing games and had plans going in to seek a drastic reduction after survey even though the boat was fairly represented, I wouldn't waste my time with them.

As a buyer, if I felt a seller was knowingly misrepresenting the condition of the boat but was not going to be willing to adjust after survey, then I wouldn't waste my time or money.

While there are troublesome brokers, there are a lot of troublesome sellers and buyers.

 

[salishpaddler]

This. I kind of detected the same tone, but was not sure and did not want to suggest it initially.

There is a difference in finding survey issues and making an adjusted offer and specifying in the contract that every last “as of yet unknown” thing will be fixed. I don’t ever want to get into a contractual pissing match with someone that is intent on simply making a point on top of ambiguous language.

I think in your zeal to demonstrate that the seller should not try to take advantage of you, you may have unintentionally, but solidly crossed the line into the territory of not being someone who is going to respond in good faith.

Plenty of owners have some notion of their depreciating asset up on a pedestal. Often they won’t let it go at the right price, sometimes for years. But that doesn’t mean that you can somehow trick him into a contractual war because the seller used the word “Bristol”. Sorry, no. Nobody is going to agree with that, ever. You have to get the seller to agree that his boat is worth less, and it has to be his idea, and a single step no-negotiation just discount contract is not going to do it. It only makes you look equally unreasonable, not just on this boat, but if I was that broker I would be advising my other clients that they might want to be careful too.

I once had a house I was selling come back with an initially higher offer but their appraisal came back with not too many items but one of their negotiating points was to call out the broken light bulb in a closet. Their agent even chuckled and said something like “not to be unreasonable, but...”. I rejected the offer with no counter. The money would have worked. I just won’t ever get into a contract with someone trying to make a point. That’s not what we were there for, and it’s only going to cloud the real issues.

I appreciate your observations and take them to heart. However, if the boat is overtly advertised as in Bristol Condition, in my opinion the selling broker has an obligation to ensure that's indeed the case. Otherwise, he's misrepresenting it. If the boat had been advertised as very clean, meticulously maintained, turnkey or similar descriptives, I wouldn't have been so demanding.

One of the engines had experienced a catastrophic failure at 1500 hours and was replaced, so now there's a 1500 hour discrepancy in the pair. The broker refused to provide details concerning the nature of the failure. That led me to believe there had been a maintenance issue. So I stated I would be paying particular attention to the engines with a separate mechanical survey. Not to prove a point, but to ensure the condition.

Also, I failed to note this is a long distance transaction, and my communication was though my buyer's broker at that time. In anticipation of the sale, I had already made flight reservations to be present for the survey. The contingencies were stated in the agreement prior to final signature and the broker was free to negotiate the terms in advance, rejecting those he felt to be unrealistic. Instead, not only did he reject the offer altogether, he sent a scathing letter to my broker, personally insulting both of us. Rather than eliminating my contingencies to make it acceptable, I walked. Afterward, I provided copies of my contingencies to other boat owners, including those who had recently purchased boats of similar style, for their review and comment. To a person, they agreed these were strict, but not unreasonable considering how the boat is being represented. Why would I undertake the expense of travel and lodging, haul out, survey and sea trial, without some expectation that this as going to be a clean transaction? My financing had been arranged, documentation and insurance prepared, and check in hand.

Afterward, I learned first hand of at least one other would-be buyer who personally inspected the boat and walked because it didn't meet the broker's description. Another couple from Canada had nearly bought the boat, conducted a survey, and refused the boat. And it continues to sit, apparently unattended, gathering mounds of seagull droppings, more than a year now, "Bristol Condition" in a seller's market for boats of this type. And, as I had noted in earlier posts, this particular broker, who is the exclusive listing agent, has a reputation as arrogant and condescending.

At any rate, this served as an invaluable learning experience for me, as does this discussion. Maybe I was too strident in my concern to protect my interests. Perhaps someone else will find this boat to be satisfactory and will hit it off with the seller's broker. I wish them luck. But it's no longer on my radar, other than a wistful regret that it hadn't been offered by someone else.

 

[smitty477]

I appreciate your observations and take them to heart. However, if the boat is overtly advertised as in Bristol Condition, in my opinion the selling broker has an obligation to ensure that's indeed the case. Otherwise, he's misrepresenting it. If the boat had been advertised as very clean, meticulously maintained, turnkey or similar descriptives, I wouldn't have been so demanding.

One of the engines had experienced a catastrophic failure at 1500 hours and was replaced, so now there's a 1500 hour discrepancy in the pair. The broker refused to provide details concerning the nature of the failure. That led me to believe there had been a maintenance issue. So I stated I would be paying particular attention to the engines with a separate mechanical survey. Not to prove a point, but to ensure the condition.

Also, I failed to note this is a long distance transaction, and my communication was though my buyer's broker at that time. In anticipation of the sale, I had already made flight reservations to be present for the survey. The contingencies were stated in the agreement prior to final signature and the broker was free to negotiate the terms in advance, rejecting those he felt to be unrealistic. Instead, not only did he reject the offer altogether, he sent a scathing letter to my broker, personally insulting both of us. Rather than eliminating my contingencies to make it acceptable, I walked. Afterward, I provided copies of my contingencies to other boat owners, including those who had recently purchased boats of similar style, for their review and comment. To a person, they agreed these were strict, but not unreasonable considering how the boat is being represented. Why would I undertake the expense of travel and lodging, haul out, survey and sea trial, without some expectation that this as going to be a clean transaction? My financing had been arranged, documentation and insurance prepared, and check in hand.

Afterward, I learned first hand of at least one other would-be buyer who personally inspected the boat and walked because it didn't meet the broker's description. Another couple from Canada had nearly bought the boat, conducted a survey, and refused the boat. And it continues to sit, apparently unattended, gathering mounds of seagull droppings, more than a year now, "Bristol Condition" in a seller's market for boats of this type. And, as I had noted in earlier posts, this particular broker, who is the exclusive listing agent, has a reputation as arrogant and condescending.

At any rate, this served as an invaluable learning experience for me, as does this discussion. Maybe I was too strident in my concern to protect my interests. Perhaps someone else will find this boat to be satisfactory and will hit it off with the seller's broker. I wish them luck. But it's no longer on my radar, other than a wistful regret that it hadn't been offered by someone else.

The engine hour discrepancy is stated in the listing for the boat - was that listing changed or was that still the case when you initially posted on the boat?

 

[sunchaser]

Salish
Possibly your expectations for a 30 year old vessel are too high. Add to that the "to be expected" over zealous promotion. It can get discouraging. Suggest you disregard brokers' sales BS and advertising and just do the drudgery (or fun) of boat inspections and form your own quiet opinion.

 

[salishpaddler]

The engine hour discrepancy is stated in the listing for the boat - was that listing changed or was that still the case when you initially posted on the boat?

Thanks for asking. The engine hour discrepancy was noted in the description from the first time I saw the advertisement.

 

[salishpaddler]

I had even secured mooring! Lucked out on a cancellation for a 50' end tie at Foss Harbor Marina.

Moreover, I had made tentative arrangements with Anacortes Yacht Charters to add this boat to their fleet during high season. I knew they are unsparing in their assessment of every boat they add to their charter fleet. Hence my decision to ensure its acceptability beforehand, rather than wait for them to identify a shortcoming that I had failed to notice during the survey.

So, this was a disappointment on multiple levels that in my belief would have had a happier ending with a different broker.

 

[ghost]

Buying remote is at best a chore. I wouldn’t spend the money either without some sort of shall we say calibration. Somehow you need to get a local agent that you can communicate at an advanced level with few words and have them do a high level check with lots of pictures. Don’t force a situation that does not feel right. I’m literally a data guy for a living, but for boat shopping I’ve learned to trust my instincts.

 

[salishpaddler]

Buying remote is at best a chore. I wouldn’t spend the money either without some sort of shall we say calibration. Somehow you need to get a local agent that you can communicate at an advanced level with few words and have them do a high level check with lots of pictures. Don’t force a situation that does not feel right. I’m literally a data guy for a living, but for boat shopping I’ve learned to trust my instincts.

Great recommendation, hard learned. I'm confident my current broker, Alan Powell of Capital City Yacht Sales, is going to steer me in the right direction, temper my expectations and help me find the boat that's right for me. Along with advice so freely shared by the folks in this forum.

 

[NightCrawler]

I like Chuck Grice at Virginia Yacht Brokers i Chesapeake, Va. just visit there web site and see how well they list boats with accurate information and great photos. First class folks to deal with IMHO.

Chuck and Kelsey are first class. Bought our trawler from them. They were engaged and most informative (no BS.) They arranged surveyors and made the entire transaction easy peasy.

 

[smitty477]

I should have been more clear. I had expressed my intent to have all of those issues addressed in the course of the survey, by the professional surveyor, after the seller received my deposit. My contingencies stated that all safety or Immediate Action shortcomings would be rectified by the seller or there would be a commensurate reduction in the sales price; all other less critical shortcomings would be addressed separately. The fact that the seller's broker was so taken aback by my intention to conduct a rigorous survey of every system on my dime and examine all documentation was sufficient for me to abandon that boat. This was a boat that was, and still is, being represented as in "Bristol Condition". And still remains unsold.

It is unclear from all these posts whether or not you actually got to see the boat in question yourself.
Did you get to visit and see the boat in questions yourself?
Were all the pictures posted in the add of that exact boat?
Did the boat look like those pretty hi res pictures or were there obvious discrepancies?

 

[salishpaddler]

It is unclear from all these posts whether or not you actually got to see the boat in question yourself.
Did you get to visit and see the boat in questions yourself?
Were all the pictures posted in the add of that exact boat?
Did the boat look like those pretty hi res pictures or were there obvious discrepancies?

All fair questions, Smitty! Here's full book. In 1986-87 I was assigned to Madigan Army Medical Center at Fort Lewis, now Joint Base Lewis McChord, for the residency portion of my US Army-Baylor University graduate program in health care administration. Fell in love with the PNW and felt like I had found my spiritual home. I had a follow-on assignment waiting for me at Madigan. But our family had only the year before returned to the US from four years in Belgium. Assigned to Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio for the didactic year of the graduate program. Enrolled the kids in school, began the reorientation to the USA process etc and when the residency phase commenced, I went to Madigan unaccompanied. No worries. Returned home monthly for the weekend. But when the time came for the follow-on assignment, the family was by now settled in San Antonio and balked at relocating again. I turned it down with heartfelt regret and ended up serving as the XO of the last remaining MASH in Korea, another unaccompanied year, in exchange for a return assignment at our major command HQ in San Antonio. Loved the assignment, but hated the separation and hated even more my absence from the PNW. I've been trying to get back ever since, and regularly visit at least annually for a couple of weeks.

Finally decided the most feasible and affordable way to return is buy a boat as a vacation destination and park it in a nice full service marina where I can visit as frequently as I want without the need to pack a bag every time, with the benefit of cruising the PNW waters from Olympia to Alaska. Made friends among boat owners, some of whom are liveaboards. So my first foray was to look at a 40 ft Tolly Sundeck berthed at Shilshole Bay Marina with transferable liveaboard slip. No buyer broker. Just me dealing with the selling broker, He was fine, no complaints. The day I arrived we conducted the haul out survey and the sea trial. The Crusader gas engines were powerful and the boat would turn on a dime and fly over its own wake at WOT. Had never set foot on a boat this size until that morning. I was smitten and agreed on the spot to buy it. Had already surrendered my 10% deposit and we agreed on a close 5 days later and in the meantime I could remain on the boat. For the next 2 days I took lessons in seamanship and boat handling. It was challenging and I began to appreciate the boats in the marina that slid into their slips with ease with the use of their bow thrusters while I was limited to manipulating the twin screws to overcome tide and wind. Began to have second thoughts about my hasty decision made with little prior research. Recognized I would probably have preferred diesel engines and a boat that offered more interior space. And I was frustrated when I went to take a shower and found the faucet wasn't operational, but sprayed all over the entire head. That, and other shortcomings I discovered while onbaord that weren't in the survey findings convinced me to belatedly decide this wasn't the boat for me and if I closed the sale I would probably regret it. So I disembarked, notified the broker, and forfeited the deposit.

Now, the owner actually got the better part of the deal, because in addition to the deposit, I had paid to have the hull powerwashed, flushed the blackwater tank, filled the fresh water tank, and most importantly, filled both fuel tanks and added fuel stabilizer on top of that. That was when I discovered the fuel gauges were inaccurate and a small top up became $800 in fuel. So, this was a costly venture, but in spite of the financial pain I don't regret it because it was a learning experience for me. I had to return to san Antonio and resumed my search online, with the help of the friends I had made. My friends had wanted to steer my to a larger Tolly, but I still couldn't find anything that inspired me.

Instead, I found this particular Camargue myself with no aid from anyone else. I made inquiries about it but no one had a clue of its history. Because of my distance, I engaged a buyer's broker. He visited the boat and confirmed the photos in the ad are faithful representations and the boat appeared to be in very good condition aside from bilge stink and mildew and the pervasive odor of diesel. But the seller's broker wouldn't even allow him, a licensed broker representing a client, to crank the engines or do anything other than conduct a visual walk through and wouldn't share details of the engine replacement or provide any documentation at all to review. Selling broker did say he had results of a previous survey, but wouldn't provide that prior to the receipt of an offer and earnest money. My broker encouraged me to fly back out to the coast and see it for myself, but also informed me the seller broker could be difficult to deal with. I instructed him to begin negotiations on my behalf and it we could come to terms I would fly out there and personally inspect it prior to the survey. Just prior to sending the earnest money, I asked my broker to ensure the availability of the promised documentation. Curiously, he came back a short while later, puzzled, to relate to me the selling broker denied he had ever said such a thing.

So, very long story short, I had not actually laid hands on the boat because the deal blew up literally hours before I was going to send the deposit. After their broker sent a scathing note essentially questioning my parentage, I returned fire with a note directly to him stating my conditions stood as written and questioning his apparent challenged relationship with ethics. I also sent a letter to the owner expressing dissatisfaction with her broker, his misrepresentation of the boat and his apparent disinterest in selling it at all. That was more than my broker could deal with. Rather than getting into a protracted pissing and legal contest with the broker and owner, mine washed his hands of the affair. My current broker, who was recommended to me by one of my friends who owns a larger Tolly at Shilshole, is fully aware of my travails and my sights are set elsewhere. As for the other buyer broker, I'm referring him to the NW Yacht Brokers Association Ethics Committee for unprofessional conduct and fraudulent misreprentation of the boat.

 

[BruceK]

Hi folks, is there a forum for discussion of experiences as buyer or seller with yacht brokerages or individual brokers? I've heard horror stories of experiences as well as very positive interactions, and it might be helpful to learn who are the good guys and who to avoid.

As the thread developed, it became clear the OP`s concerns were way beyond the opening post. He`d not just "heard horror stories", he`d been in the midst of one, and I think gradually gained the confidence to say so.
There are wonderful brokers, as the replies attest. There are the other kind too,and it can take time to suss out the disasters. Things don`t add up, statements are inconsistent, nothing hangs together, BS emerges, confidence and faith disappear. That you trusted the guy initially only makes it worse when you see no basis for trust. It`s a judgement call, always. The best you can say of some brokers statements is "The boat is for sale",and even that can be in doubt sometimes.
I bailed on a boat when I could not get straight answers. He referred me to people who he said could confirm things, they didn`t,they said different things, and were not even quite who he said they were. I had concerns which were not being allayed,and decided to leave it. You can`t take everything you are told as gospel,but it has to hang together and be consistent.
We don`t normally have "buyers brokers" here,you make your own advice and decisions, I`m ok with that.Main thing is you are buying a boat, not a broker,so concentrate on the boat. Even a spiv broker could list a good boat,but, one of the rules of appointing a broker/agent is if you like him the buyers probably will, if you don`t like him the buyers probably won`t either, so don`t.

 

[Dforce]

Great experience

We just purchased our first boat. We entered the process a year ago with no experience, few contacts, and so many questions. We stumbled across John Baier at Oceanic Yachts. He guided us through the process, provided knowledgeable and invaluable experience, and proved to be our advocate start to finish. But it's the finish part we found so remarkable. His support has continued long after the "sale". He has gone above and beyond anything we expected. I can't say enough how much confidence we have in his judgement and how easy and pleasant he has made this experience.

 

[JOY-SEA]

I listed my boat last week with broker at my marina .
Owing 3 years
I use my boat too often, few days of every week . At times sleep aboard
Many Mini voyages,
Boat is a Weekender
Has New engines .
Retired couple wanting more than a gas eating, weekender can offer
Leaning towards a trawler , for voyages around FL were we reside
Always owing some sort of boat , even sailed in past ( leaning towards a sail for room and little fuel burn . ) ISSUE WITH ME
As I stated always had a boat but never had twin gas FEED ME ENGINES . 1 gallon a mile fuel burn . I CRY AT FUEL DOCK . As I said I use weekly , stay local off coast too conserve fuel .
At my young age of 71 I was told in a nice way , OLD MAN GUYS your age are getting out of sailing purchasing TRAWLERS . THEY LOOK NICE, ROOMY Know little about them

I figured let broker do the screening Deal with tire kickers , time wasters
He is on property. I am 75 miles from marina, LET HIM DEAL WITH THE CRAP
He knew boat from marina but knew nothing other then what I told him
Asked basic questions too list , few picks
THAT WAS IT

He has movement on fishing boats , sport cruisers, yachts
He did say twin gas weekend cruisers don't do well
They sell but sellers dropping pricing too move
With recent Hurricanes good clean boats are in short supply , Waiting list on new too be delivered
He has local listings, also part of multiple listings with other brokers.
This opens the door too view other boats rather then doing it myself on the blind
With his help get a education on trawlers, type too seek, hull displacement, diesel
fuel burn , lay out etc etc .
3 years of ownership of present boat I had my share of repairs
Including new long block engines , almost a new boat ,
I priced the boat too reflect new items ,
I have spoken with a number of brokers, all had stories and lines of bull **** . I zone out when they start talking on how great they are.
I don't have the desire or energy too start that repair process all over

 

[South of Heaven]

We just purchased our first boat. We entered the process a year ago with no experience, few contacts, and so many questions. We stumbled across John Baier at Oceanic Yachts. He guided us through the process, provided knowledgeable and invaluable experience, and proved to be our advocate start to finish. But it's the finish part we found so remarkable. His support has continued long after the "sale". He has gone above and beyond anything we expected. I can't say enough how much confidence we have in his judgement and how easy and pleasant he has made this experience.

What did you buy?

 

[smitty477]

All fair questions, Smitty! Here's full book. In 1986-87 I was assigned to Madigan Army Medical Center at Fort Lewis, now Joint Base Lewis McChord, for the residency portion of my US Army-Baylor University graduate program in health care administration. Fell in love with the PNW and felt like I had found my spiritual home. I had a follow-on assignment waiting for me at Madigan. But our family had only the year before returned to the US from four years in Belgium. Assigned to Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio for the didactic year of the graduate program. Enrolled the kids in school, began the reorientation to the USA process etc and when the residency phase commenced, I went to Madigan unaccompanied. No worries. Returned home monthly for the weekend. But when the time came for the follow-on assignment, the family was by now settled in San Antonio and balked at relocating again. I turned it down with heartfelt regret and ended up serving as the XO of the last remaining MASH in Korea, another unaccompanied year, in exchange for a return assignment at our major command HQ in San Antonio. Loved the assignment, but hated the separation and hated even more my absence from the PNW. I've been trying to get back ever since, and regularly visit at least annually for a couple of weeks.

Finally decided the most feasible and affordable way to return is buy a boat as a vacation destination and park it in a nice full service marina where I can visit as frequently as I want without the need to pack a bag every time, with the benefit of cruising the PNW waters from Olympia to Alaska. Made friends among boat owners, some of whom are liveaboards. So my first foray was to look at a 40 ft Tolly Sundeck berthed at Shilshole Bay Marina with transferable liveaboard slip. No buyer broker. Just me dealing with the selling broker, He was fine, no complaints. The day I arrived we conducted the haul out survey and the sea trial. The Crusader gas engines were powerful and the boat would turn on a dime and fly over its own wake at WOT. Had never set foot on a boat this size until that morning. I was smitten and agreed on the spot to buy it. Had already surrendered my 10% deposit and we agreed on a close 5 days later and in the meantime I could remain on the boat. For the next 2 days I took lessons in seamanship and boat handling. It was challenging and I began to appreciate the boats in the marina that slid into their slips with ease with the use of their bow thrusters while I was limited to manipulating the twin screws to overcome tide and wind. Began to have second thoughts about my hasty decision made with little prior research. Recognized I would probably have preferred diesel engines and a boat that offered more interior space. And I was frustrated when I went to take a shower and found the faucet wasn't operational, but sprayed all over the entire head. That, and other shortcomings I discovered while onbaord that weren't in the survey findings convinced me to belatedly decide this wasn't the boat for me and if I closed the sale I would probably regret it. So I disembarked, notified the broker, and forfeited the deposit.

Now, the owner actually got the better part of the deal, because in addition to the deposit, I had paid to have the hull powerwashed, flushed the blackwater tank, filled the fresh water tank, and most importantly, filled both fuel tanks and added fuel stabilizer on top of that. That was when I discovered the fuel gauges were inaccurate and a small top up became $800 in fuel. So, this was a costly venture, but in spite of the financial pain I don't regret it because it was a learning experience for me. I had to return to san Antonio and resumed my search online, with the help of the friends I had made. My friends had wanted to steer my to a larger Tolly, but I still couldn't find anything that inspired me.

Instead, I found this particular Camargue myself with no aid from anyone else. I made inquiries about it but no one had a clue of its history. Because of my distance, I engaged a buyer's broker. He visited the boat and confirmed the photos in the ad are faithful representations and the boat appeared to be in very good condition aside from bilge stink and mildew and the pervasive odor of diesel. But the seller's broker wouldn't even allow him, a licensed broker representing a client, to crank the engines or do anything other than conduct a visual walk through and wouldn't share details of the engine replacement or provide any documentation at all to review. Selling broker did say he had results of a previous survey, but wouldn't provide that prior to the receipt of an offer and earnest money. My broker encouraged me to fly back out to the coast and see it for myself, but also informed me the seller broker could be difficult to deal with. I instructed him to begin negotiations on my behalf and it we could come to terms I would fly out there and personally inspect it prior to the survey. Just prior to sending the earnest money, I asked my broker to ensure the availability of the promised documentation. Curiously, he came back a short while later, puzzled, to relate to me the selling broker denied he had ever said such a thing.

So, very long story short, I had not actually laid hands on the boat because the deal blew up literally hours before I was going to send the deposit. After their broker sent a scathing note essentially questioning my parentage, I returned fire with a note directly to him stating my conditions stood as written and questioning his apparent challenged relationship with ethics. I also sent a letter to the owner expressing dissatisfaction with her broker, his misrepresentation of the boat and his apparent disinterest in selling it at all. That was more than my broker could deal with. Rather than getting into a protracted pissing and legal contest with the broker and owner, mine washed his hands of the affair. My current broker, who was recommended to me by one of my friends who owns a larger Tolly at Shilshole, is fully aware of my travails and my sights are set elsewhere. As for the other buyer broker, I'm referring him to the NW Yacht Brokers Association Ethics Committee for unprofessional conduct and fraudulent misreprentation of the boat.

After reading this I spent a good deal of time reading the listing for the 48 and inspecting the pictures.
- I do not know you
- I do not know the seller of the 48 boat in question
- I do not know the boat in question
- I am not even on the west coast

Here are my observations from someone who has bought and sold a few larger boats with and without a broker.
- The listing was detailed and accurate
- The pictures were very good and plentiful with a 'button' to request more
- You never saw the boat
- The boat is 30 years old
- The boat appears in fantastic condition

My guess's from these observations:
- 95% + of the boats you see that age will be in worse condition
- Most of the listings for boats such as these will be less accurate
- I would never let a broker start or fiddle with my engines and/or machinery
- I never take a potential buyers efforts as serious unless/until they see the boat in question
- Folks that are presented with a genuinely good to great example of a boat model need to then see the boat or move on
- When potential buyers of my boats did not decide to visit the boat themselves but wanted machinery turn-on's rides hauls and the like without a deposit the answer was 'no'.
-Potential buyers of a 'good example' boat the engaged in emails looking for issues even though they had no expertise and did not see the boat were labeled a 'waste or time".

From a buyers perspective I would have determined that this potential transaction was not in my best intertest and ended it as well.

Where you are now:
- apparently looking for a boat that is in great condition
- spending a lot of time speaking poorly about a boat that you had seen
- wishing that owner and broker have a poor future experience and life


I would suggest that you focus on what you really want and how it is you can achieve that. The rest of this is really unnecessary drama and although you maybe very knowledgeable in your field you are not equipped to assess these boats and would be best suited to engage a good surveyor for a quick walk thru or a complete survey when one pops up on your radar.