Broker experiences?

[salishpaddler]

After reading this I spent a good deal of time reading the listing for the 48 and inspecting the pictures.
- I do not know you
- I do not know the seller of the 48 boat in question
- I do not know the boat in question
- I am not even on the west coast

Here are my observations from someone who has bought and sold a few larger boats with and without a broker.
- The listing was detailed and accurate
- The pictures were very good and plentiful with a 'button' to request more
- You never saw the boat
- The boat is 30 years old
- The boat appears in fantastic condition

My guess's from these observations:
- 95% + of the boats you see that age will be in worse condition
- Most of the listings for boats such as these will be less accurate
- I would never let a broker start or fiddle with my engines and/or machinery
- I never take a potential buyers efforts as serious unless/until they see the boat in question
- Folks that are presented with a genuinely good to great example of a boat model need to then see the boat or move on
- When potential buyers of my boats did not decide to visit the boat themselves but wanted machinery turn-on's rides hauls and the like without a deposit the answer was 'no'.
-Potential buyers of a 'good example' boat the engaged in emails looking for issues even though they had no expertise and did not see the boat were labeled a 'waste or time".

From a buyers perspective I would have determined that this potential transaction was not in my best intertest and ended it as well.

Where you are now:
- apparently looking for a boat that is in great condition
- spending a lot of time speaking poorly about a boat that you had seen
- wishing that owner and broker have a poor future experience and life


I would suggest that you focus on what you really want and how it is you can achieve that. The rest of this is really unnecessary drama and although you maybe very knowledgeable in your field you are not equipped to assess these boats and would be best suited to engage a good surveyor for a quick walk thru or a complete survey when one pops up on your radar.

Smitty, I appreciate the time you took to formulate your judgment. You asked and I replied to the best of my ability.

However, I believe you're being overly harsh.

" . . . speaking poorly about a boat I had seen . . . " What? Are you referring to the time I spent on the Tolly for which I paid dearly without regret after determining it wasn't the boat for me? I spoke factually about a boat I departed with no ill will toward the boat, the seller or the owner.

Since when is it impermissible to grant a licensed broker representing an out-of-town buyer the opportunity to crank the engines, in the slip, in the presence of the selling broker? Since when is it good marketing to refuse to share the details of an engine failure and replacement prior to the receipt of a 10% deposit from an out-of-town buyer whose broker is representing him on site? Since when is it ethical for the selling broker to state he can share previous survey results upon receipt of a 10% deposit and then days later deny the existence of such documentation?

As for your assertion that I do not hold this broker in high regard, you are 100 per cent correct about that. But "wishing that owner and broker have a poor future experience and life" is somewhat over the top and completely out of line. BTW, in reference to your recommendation that I would be best served if I engage a surveyor for a quick walk through, my broker in this transaction is a retired US Navy officer, an engineer with a degree in warship marine mechanical systems. He's a rated 100T skipper. He's eminently qualified to ascertain the quality of a boat. He buys and sells boats in his own right. He's not one who suffers buyer brokers who are demonstrably uncooperative.

There is frankly something amiss about the boat or the broker when a quality boat that would appear at first blush to meet most owners' desires in the PNW, still sits unsold after more than a year, unpromoted, unshown in numerous venues, in a seller's market, and when a legitimate interest is exhibited, the broker insists on seeing cash before turning on the engine. Makes one wonder when was the last time the engines were turned on at all. Or does it just sit in the water like sleeping beauty. I did note earlier one prospective buyer who, upon in-depth inspection of the boat, walked because he felt it didn't live up to its representation.

No doubt, you have the benefit of years of experience as an owner, a buyer and a seller and I respect that. I noted from the outset I'm a newbie with much to learn in a short time. So, with respect, I disagree with your judgment.

At this point, I don't believe there is anything more to be gained by continued discussion of my experience with this boat. I'm moving on in a different direction and will no longer publicly reply to further posts concerning this particular issue. However, I do believe in the value of this thread in its stated purpose in general, that is, to discuss the experiences, positive and negative, of dealing through brokers. Thanks.

 

[Baker]

It is not uncommon to prevent "lookers" from activating systems or starting engines. I have bought and sold 6 "big" boats and would never expect to be aloowed to crank engines until the survey came around(ie after offer was made). And I tell a broker representing my boat for sale not to allow such a thing. When I am the buyer, I do not expect to be able to do such things as well. ALso as it relates to a previous survey, I get it. That survey cost somebody some money. And until you show you are serious by putting an offer down, I will not show you that "asset". And if you want to see a survey, get(pay for) your own!

Now not sharing info on why the other engine was replaced would have scared me off. It is difficult to buy a boat like that anyway since one can easily assume that the "surviving" engine might have been subjected to the same thing that made the other engine fail.

In summary, it is fairly common to not allow engine start up for a "looker"...Just for future reference. It is certainly fair to ask but don't go off the deepend if they deny you that "privilege". And a survey is something that someone paid for. So don't expect someone to show it to you for "free". I was buying a house once and had the inspection done and I turned down the house based on inspection. The seller asked me if they could have a copy of the inspection. I said I would be happy to provide the copy for what it cost me. I mean why should they get it for free when I paid for it? I actually think I offered it for half the cost since I am a fair guy like that.

Thank y'all for being civil. You do not agree with one another but the discussion is respectful!!!

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

I've been reading about your boat buying journey for awhile now. It appears that you have run into a few boats and brokers that have not been 100% forth right in their representation of a vessel that has been of interest to you. I would not expect less remember that Yachtworld are ads they all have the purpose to generate interest in the boat by showing the well varnished brightwork not the leaky fuel tanks. The Yachtworld listings say more about what is not shown than what is.



Traditional transactions seem to follw the same path: tour the boat, if it works for the buyer negotiate a price,write good faith check sea trial, surveys, adjust price based on survey results. This is where I believe you have some mia culpa... you appeared to want to start renegotiating the accepted price without the deposit.( the earnest money makes you a crediable buyer without it your just another tire kicker.)
When we were selling our boat if you were a potential buyer look all you want where ever you wanted just so no tool needed to be used to gain access. A earnest money check was required to start the engines or to move the boat out of the slip. When we are looking to purchase a boat I know that 10% check is the price to start the engines and move the boat.


Just another thought to prevent a possible headache for you. Make sure you have moorage for any boat you get prior to buying it... 50ft slips are getting hard to find in this area.... Good luck with your search

 

[smitty477]

Smitty, I appreciate the time you took to formulate your judgment. You asked and I replied to the best of my ability.

However, I believe you're being overly harsh.

" . . . speaking poorly about a boat I had seen . . . " What? Are you referring to the time I spent on the Tolly for which I paid dearly without regret after determining it wasn't the boat for me? I spoke factually about a boat I departed with no ill will toward the boat, the seller or the owner.

Since when is it impermissible to grant a licensed broker representing an out-of-town buyer the opportunity to crank the engines, in the slip, in the presence of the selling broker? Since when is it good marketing to refuse to share the details of an engine failure and replacement prior to the receipt of a 10% deposit from an out-of-town buyer whose broker is representing him on site? Since when is it ethical for the selling broker state he can share previous survey results upon receipt of a 10% deposit and then days later deny the existence of such documentation?

As for your assertion that I do not hold this broker in high regard, you are 100 per cent correct about that. But "wishing that owner and broker have a poor future experience and life" is somewhat over the top and completely out of line. BTW, in reference to your recommendation that I would be best served if I engage a surveyor for a quick walk through, my broker in this transaction was a retired US Navy officer, an engineer with a degree in warship marine mechanical systems. He's a rated 100T charter captain. He's eminently qualified to ascertain the quality of a boat. He's not one who suffers buyer brokers who are demonstrably uncooperative.

There is frankly something amiss about the boat or the broker when a quality boat that would appear at first blush to meet most owners' desires in the PNW, still sits unsold after more than a year, unpromoted, unshown in numerous venues, in a seller's market, and when a legitimate interest is exhibited, the broker insists on seeing cash before turning on the engine. Makes one wonder when was the last time the engines were turned on at all. Or does it just sit in the water like sleeping beauty. I did note earlier one prospective buyer who, upon in-depth inspection of the boat, walked because he felt it didn't live up to its representation.

No doubt, you have the benefit of years of experience as an owner, a buyer and a seller and I respect that. I noted from the outset I'm a newbie with much to learn in a short time. So, with respect, I disagree with your judgment.

At this point, I don't believe there is anything more to be gained by continued discussion of my experience with this boat. I'm moving on in a different direction and will no longer publicly reply to further posts concerning this particular issue. However, I do believe in the value of this thread in its stated purpose in general, that is, to discuss the experiences, positive and negstive, of dealing through brokers. Thanks.

And so you have not learned anything from this transaction either.
Good luck with your search

 

[Donsan]

"aside from bilge stink and mildew and the pervasive odor of diesel."

That situation would have turned me off immediately.

 

[salishpaddler]

Editing my comment concerning my broker's observation of the bilge. "Bilge stink and mildew and the pervasive odor of diesel". Also, the bilge was wet and the entire boat had a musty odor indicative that it's been closed up and not allowed to have fresh air circulate throughout. I should have noted that in the body of my comment, but this addendum is the best I can do. Many thanks to all for all of your remarks.

 

[salishpaddler]

And so you have not learned anything from this transaction either.
Good luck with your search

Smitty, I tolerated your commentary with respect and courtesy. But your closing comment is altogether inappropriate and rude. You just couldn't resist, could you? As you stated, you don't know me. So why do you believe yourself entitled to pass judgment on me?

You say you "would never take a potential buyers efforts as serious unless/until they see the boat in question." What part of "out-of-town buyer" did you fail to note? What part of "buyer's broker" did you fail to note? What part of "going to be present for the survey" did you fail to note? What part of "requesting the name of the bank to send the deposit" even though the engines hadn't been cranked did you fail to note? What part of the "denial of the existence of documentation that had earlier been stated would be available upon payment of the deposit" did you fail to note?

I'm supposed to fly out to see the boat myself without even knowing beforehand if the engines run? What harm is there in asking the seller to crank them? Are they so fragile they can't be started? Maybe, if they had been started and allowed to run from time to time and the boat opened up to fresh air at the same time my broker wouldn't have felt the need to comment about bilge stink, pervasive odor of diesel, wet bilge, mildew in the engine room and musty odor throughout the boat. Even so, I let it go and made arrangements to visit.

Many brokers who are motivated to make a sale will make a video of the boat in operation and publish it on their web site or on youtube. They cycle systems to ensure they're operational. I daresay there are folks in this forum whose decision to investigate and ultimately buy their boat was based on first viewing such a promotional video. So your argument simply doesn't hold up.

But the focus of my comments isn't the boat. That's history and I already indicated I have nothing to add about that experience. My comments are focused on how you choose to misconstrue my motivations to suit your own skewed perspective.

As it's apparent there are good brokers and jerks, so it's also apparent there are courteous forum participants and others who in the course of discussion reveal themselves to be jerks.

 

[smitty477]

Smitty, I tolerated your commentary with respect and courtesy. But your closing comment is altogether inappropriate and rude. You just couldn't resist, could you? As you stated, you don't know me. So why do you believe yourself entitled to pass judgment on me?

You say you "would never take a potential buyers efforts as serious unless/until they see the boat in question." What part of "out-of-town buyer" did you fail to note? What part of "buyer's broker" did you fail to note? What part of "going to be present for the survey" did you fail to note? What part of "requesting the name of the bank to send the deposit" even though the engines hadn't been cranked did you fail to note? What part of the "denial of the existence of documentation that had earlier been stated would be available upon payment of the deposit" did you fail to note?

I'm supposed to fly out to see the boat myself without even knowing beforehand if the engines run? What harm is there in asking the seller to crank them? Are they so fragile they can't be started? Maybe, if they had been started and allowed to run from time to time and the boat opened up to fresh air at the same time my broker wouldn't have felt the need to comment about bilge stink, pervasive odor of diesel, wet bilge, mildew in the engine room and musty odor throughout the boat. Even so, I let it go and made arrangements to visit.

Many brokers who are motivated to make a sale will make a video of the boat in operation and publish it on their web site or on youtube. They cycle systems to ensure they're operational. I daresay there are folks in this forum whose decision to investigate and ultimately buy their boat was based on first viewing such a promotional video. So your argument simply doesn't hold up.

But the focus of my comments isn't the boat. That's history and I already indicated I have nothing to add about that experience. My comments are focused on how you choose to misconstrue my motivations to suit your own skewed perspective.

As it's apparent there are good brokers and jerks, so it's also apparent there are courteous forum participants and others who in the course of discussion reveal themselves to be jerks.

There are always opportunities to learn as you go through a process. The less you happen to be a subject matter expert then the more you can learn from the experience. We (everyone) are all ignorant about most things I life and tend to concentrate our learning around a very narrow area - the rest we need to rely on others for their experiences and skills.
The facts that you posted are baselines to learn from :
- The initial boat you bought you reneged on the deal
- It appears on that boat you had insufficient research and did not consult
others
- Although you had initially thought it was fantastic you changed your view dramatically within a couple of days
- By changing the order of your search steps and proposed purchase the outcome would have been much better
-The 48 foot boat had a great listing compared to all others I have seen on the market
- The 48 had great pictures that were representative to all others that I have seen on the market
- there is a 'check this box' for more pictures on the listing, much better than most listing I have seen
- You make on offer on a boat that says all systems are fully functional expect as noted and add XXX< YYY ZZZ. Your ability to check those systems prior to sale are paramount in your offer.
- You can also make the sales docs contingent upon a specific stated performance such as .. the engines both run well up to their rated 2,600 rpm where the boat is generally traveling at 17 knots.
- There was no down payment made on the 48
- There was no accepted offer on the 48
- There was no offer made at all on the 48
- You had no seen the 48 yourself
- A baseline for the condition of a 30 year old boat has not been established
- Solid plans were made for a slip assignment for the 48 after purchase
- Solid plans were made to put the 48 into charter service after purchase
- It is likely you never spoke to the listing broker or owner in person
- Very few owners will allow 'folks' to fiddle with machinery and start engines without a large commitment, too much can go wrong and it can cost a lot of money.
- Starting diesels at eth dock for apparent potential buyers is not a good practice, it conveys little data and exemplifies a treatment of the engines that would be a negative to those knowledgeable about them.
- Many surveyors will supply a 'quick walkthrough' for general condition at a reduced price as a precursor to a full survey when remote purchasing.
- Ditto the above for engine surveys
- I always prefer to see a boat myself if it fits most of my criteria , even if I do not buy it I then have another data point for benchmarks and comparisons. No one will enjoy your exact opinion of a 30 year old boat so unless you go through this a few times you will have no benchmark.
- You began a thread asking for feedback and steered it in this current direction, you have invited all of this feedback and supplied your facts along the way.


With all these things that you have posted yourself is there not a few of them that would lead you to take a different direction with your implied goal of purchasing a larger power boat in the near future?

 

[salishpaddler]

There are always opportunities to learn as you go through a process. The less you happen to be a subject matter expert then the more you can learn from the experience. We (everyone) are all ignorant about most things I life and tend to concentrate our learning around a very narrow area - the rest we need to rely on others for their experiences and skills.
The facts that you posted are baselines to learn from :
- The initial boat you bought you reneged on the deal
- It appears on that boat you had insufficient research and did not consult
others
- Although you had initially thought it was fantastic you changed your view dramatically within a couple of days
- By changing the order of your search steps and proposed purchase the outcome would have been much better
-The 48 foot boat had a great listing compared to all others I have seen on the market
- The 48 had great pictures that were representative to all others that I have seen on the market
- there is a 'check this box' for more pictures on the listing, much better than most listing I have seen
- You make on offer on a boat that says all systems are fully functional expect as noted and add XXX< YYY ZZZ. Your ability to check those systems prior to sale are paramount in your offer.
- You can also make the sales docs contingent upon a specific stated performance such as .. the engines both run well up to their rated 2,600 rpm where the boat is generally traveling at 17 knots.
- There was no down payment made on the 48
- There was no accepted offer on the 48
- There was no offer made at all on the 48
- You had no seen the 48 yourself
- A baseline for the condition of a 30 year old boat has not been established
- Solid plans were made for a slip assignment for the 48 after purchase
- Solid plans were made to put the 48 into charter service after purchase
- It is likely you never spoke to the listing broker or owner in person
- Very few owners will allow 'folks' to fiddle with machinery and start engines without a large commitment, too much can go wrong and it can cost a lot of money.
- Starting diesels at eth dock for apparent potential buyers is not a good practice, it conveys little data and exemplifies a treatment of the engines that would be a negative to those knowledgeable about them.
- Many surveyors will supply a 'quick walkthrough' for general condition at a reduced price as a precursor to a full survey when remote purchasing.
- Ditto the above for engine surveys
- I always prefer to see a boat myself if it fits most of my criteria , even if I do not buy it I then have another data point for benchmarks and comparisons. No one will enjoy your exact opinion of a 30 year old boat so unless you go through this a few times you will have no benchmark.
- You began a thread asking for feedback and steered it in this current direction, you have invited all of this feedback and supplied your facts along the way.


With all these things that you have posted yourself is there not a few of them that would lead you to take a different direction with your implied goal of purchasing a larger power boat in the near future?

Regarding the first boat, I surrendered a 10% deposit, provided the owner full fuel and fresh water tanks and an empty black water tank. My decision was made prior to close and in full accordance with the provisions of the Purchase and Sales contract. And, BTW, the broker had a copy of the survey that I had paid to have performed.

Regarding the second boat:
An offer was made and then amended after negotiations. A sales price was agreed upon.
An updated Purchase and Sales agreement was sent to me for my final signature and for remarks in the addendum.
A 10% deposit was awaiting instructions from the seller on where to send it.
The deposit was to be made well before the deadline cited in the P&S agreement.
My broker asked me if i had spoken to the selling broker. When I replied that I hadn't, he instructed me not to contact the selling broker, but allow him to speak on my behalf in order to maintain a single line of communication and not "muddy the waters". I complied with his instructions.

I already indicated my new broker would provide guidance to me and keep me out of trouble in my continued search.

 

[dhays]

Good luck with your search. I'm sure you will eventually find a boat that fits your needs and I think your plan to keep a boat in the PNW is a great one.


Generally, brokers/sellers will not allow a potential buyer to do anything more than tour a boat without an accepted offer.



I know it is hard to buy a boat from a distance. I bought my prior boat from a distance. I negotiated a price, made a deposit, then flew myself and my buyers broker down to SoCal to look at the boat, survey, and sea trial. We then renegotiated based on a few things revealed in the survey. It isn't easy but remote buying is possible. Even with that, very few brokers/sellers will start up an engine or even turn on electronics without an accepted offer.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

as a buyer, I would have a hard time if not allowed to run the engines at the dock. I want to know how they start and run. It may never make it to the offer phase. I have only bought 1 boat through a broker (sellers broker),and it wasn't an issue. They were more than happy to have me run the engines.

 

[BruceK]

I don`t understand reluctance to start engines for an inspecting potential buyer. My Lehmans sound sweet running,I`d be happy, even keen, to run them. Ditto genset. If someone says no I suspect a problem.
But, at one time there was a marked broker reluctance here,said to be from a broker starting and damaging the engines,query by not opening the raw water seacocks.

 

[Comodave]

Again, I strongly recommend a very careful selection of a buyer's broker. Base it on referrals and reputation but also on a face to face (preferably, phone if only face to face is impossible) and extensive interview. You're hiring them to do a job for you.

There are plenty of excellent brokers out there. Find and choose one of them. To the person who says every broker they've dealt with is bad, then that person needs to reexamine how they're selecting brokers and how they're dealing with them. All brokers are not bad so the only common element there is the customer who continues to have problems.

If ALL your experiences with brokers are bad, what is common among the experiences? Maybe the person has unrealistic expectations of what brokes do.

 

[boatpoker]

Smitty, I tolerated your commentary with respect and courtesy. But your closing comment is altogether inappropriate and rude. You just couldn't resist, could you? As you stated, you don't know me. So why do you believe yourself entitled to pass judgment on me?

You say you "would never take a potential buyers efforts as serious unless/until they see the boat in question." What part of "out-of-town buyer" did you fail to note? What part of "buyer's broker" did you fail to note? What part of "going to be present for the survey" did you fail to note? What part of "requesting the name of the bank to send the deposit" even though the engines hadn't been cranked did you fail to note? What part of the "denial of the existence of documentation that had earlier been stated would be available upon payment of the deposit" did you fail to note?

I'm supposed to fly out to see the boat myself without even knowing beforehand if the engines run? What harm is there in asking the seller to crank them? Are they so fragile they can't be started? Maybe, if they had been started and allowed to run from time to time and the boat opened up to fresh air at the same time my broker wouldn't have felt the need to comment about bilge stink, pervasive odor of diesel, wet bilge, mildew in the engine room and musty odor throughout the boat. Even so, I let it go and made arrangements to visit.

Many brokers who are motivated to make a sale will make a video of the boat in operation and publish it on their web site or on youtube. They cycle systems to ensure they're operational. I daresay there are folks in this forum whose decision to investigate and ultimately buy their boat was based on first viewing such a promotional video. So your argument simply doesn't hold up.

But the focus of my comments isn't the boat. That's history and I already indicated I have nothing to add about that experience. My comments are focused on how you choose to misconstrue my motivations to suit your own skewed perspective.

As it's apparent there are good brokers and jerks, so it's also apparent there are courteous forum participants and others who in the course of discussion reveal themselves to be jerks.

Salish, almost 5,000 surveys under my belt so I've seen almost every situation you can think of including fist fights between brokers, sellers, buyers and on one hilarious occasion surveyor and seller ( I politely refuse to talk to sellers when surveying for a buyer). Your position on how to approach a purchase is in my (not so) humble opinion .... Absolutely Correct !
You are spending a significant amount of money. It is entirely up to you how to go about it. Everything is negotiable.

 

[salishpaddler]

Salish, almost 5,000 surveys under my belt so I've seen almost every situation you can think of including fist fights between brokers, sellers, buyers and on one hilarious occasion surveyor and seller ( I politely refuse to talk to sellers when surveying for a buyer). Your position on how to approach a purchase is in my (not so) humble opinion .... Absolutely Correct !
You are spending a significant amount of money. It is entirely up to you how to go about it. Everything is negotiable.

Much appreciated. Here's my position. I'm the buyer. Not a supplicant. If the seller wants to convince me the boat is worth my time, then make it worth my time. Convince me it's worth making an offer and sending a 5 figure deposit. If I have a broker representing me, he or she speaks for me as if I were there in person. The fact that my broker is visiting the boat should be sufficient demonstration of interest. If the seller/broker isn't willing to deal with that, good luck selling it to someone else.

If that offends folks, so be it.

 

[monroesilk]

I looked at a Johnson Yacht in Seattle at Crows Nest Yachts. The individual who showed me the boat seemed uninterested, I guess because I showed up in jeans and a t shirt, and acted like I could not afford the boat. When I pointed out the really poor fit and finish, chips in the fiberglass, cabinet doors hung so they hit each other, poor wood joins, he acted as if it was no big deal. He then asked me how I would pay for such a purchase. When I said wire transfer he just laughed and said "can you really afford this boat?" Needless to say I left, walked around a couple of corners and met Scott Hauck at Hampton Yacht Group. A marked difference between DW and Scott. Scott treated me kindly, respectfully and no question was to dumb. Purchased a 72' boat from Scott and have never looked back.

 

[boatpoker]

I looked at a Johnson Yacht in Seattle at Crows Nest Yachts. The individual who showed me the boat seemed uninterested, I guess because I showed up in jeans and a t shirt, and acted like I could not afford the boat. When I pointed out the really poor fit and finish, chips in the fiberglass, cabinet doors hung so they hit each other, poor wood joins, he acted as if it was no big deal. He then asked me how I would pay for such a purchase. When I said wire transfer he just laughed and said "can you really afford this boat?" Needless to say I left, walked around a couple of corners and met Scott Hauck at Hampton Yacht Group. A marked difference between DW and Scott. Scott treated me kindly, respectfully and no question was to dumb. Purchased a 72' boat from Scott and have never looked back.

Saw a similar thing about 10yrs ago. Two kids (brothers, 19 & 20) showed up on brokers row in Port Credit. They wanted to buy a boat but really didn't know what they wanted. Two brokers pointed them to the brokers docks and said go have a look. A third broker they met on the dock spent some time showing them a 10yr old 30' SeaRay but the boys decided they wanted something a little bigger. A brand new 560 Cruisers Inc. caught their eye....... they paid for it on the spot with a black American Express card.

They hired me to get the boat commissioned, make some changes and to deliver it to them on Georgian Bay. I never did find out where the money came from.

 

[O C Diver]

Regarding starting the engines, my question would be who assumes responsibility / liability? While I wouldn't have an issue throwing Jack the key to my boat and letting him run the engine and check out systems, he's a professional mariner. As for the average buyer or boat broker, I doubt I would let them use my head without the introduction lecture. Consider this example, the buyer wants to start the engine and so he does. He raises the RPM up to 1,000 to see how it sounds. Then he decides to slow the engine down and grabs the wrong lever by accident, and shifts the transmission in reverse. Who is liable? Which insurance company is paying? How long till my boat gets fixed?

Ted

 

[boatpoker]

Regarding starting the engines, my question would be who assumes responsibility / liability? While I wouldn't have an issue throwing Jack the key to my boat and letting him run the engine and check out systems, he's a professional mariner. As for the average buyer or boat broker, I doubt I would let them use my head without the introduction lecture. Consider this example, the buyer wants to start the engine and so he does. He raises the RPM up to 1,000 to see how it sounds. Then he decides to slow the engine down and grabs the wrong lever by accident, and shifts the transmission in reverse. Who is liable? Which insurance company is paying? How long till my boat gets fixed?

Ted

Dear Mr. Owner - Mr. Owners representative - Mr. Broker, could you please start the engines.

 

[Choices]

We are currently selling a house and a boat.

We are very strict on qualifying buyers for the house, broker must prove buyers have funds to buy secured. Keeps lookers away.

We do not have a broker involved with the boat, yet, but would use Jay Bettus in Kemah, who was our broker when we bought the boat. We had narrowed our search to Grand Banks, Selenes, and Norhavns, and looked at all three searching for the right boat.

Each time we put down a deposit, negotiated the price, then I flew in to look at the boat, with a survey and haulout scheduled.

When looking at Nordhavns the factory broker would not return our calls or emails. So I walked into their office and called him out in front of the staff. Saw four boats that day, and he never answered a single follow up question.

There is a sign on the boat with our number and a website giving extreme boat details for years back. I do need to add the price.

If someone walks up and wants to see it we schedule a time in the future. This makes it inconvenient for dock lookers, they just go about their day. Really interested folks will come back.

I am anal. I will be aboard for all surveys, and will provide all access to any equipment. I never turn my engines above 1800 rpm and that rule will be followed during the survey and acknowledged before we accept a deposit.

Most buyers will be ok with that if it is explained upfront. If they don't then it is best to cull them early.

 

[salishpaddler]

Dear Mr. Owner - Mr. Owners representative - Mr. Broker, could you please start the engines.

That seems intuitively obvious. If the selling owner/broker had an issue with that, there are larger issues that would warrant caution for this buyer. Moreover, if my broker makes an appointment in advance, I would expect a motivated seller/broker to grant him accompanied access for a walkthrough with pics or Skype to ascertain if it's worth my time to proceed. If the advertisement indicates a significant discrepancy in engine hours resulting from an engine replacement, IMO it's incumbent on the seller to take five minutes to explain how that came to be. If he can't be forthcoming until he sees a deposit, it's not worth my time. I'm already paying my broker to view the boat. His time is valuable and so is mine, and I expect more information than is contained in an advertisement before I can make a sufficiently informed decision to make an offer. Some people may determine that's being too demanding. I view it as being a prudent steward of my broker's time and my money.

 

[gsholz]

As a seller I'd not want everybody looking at the boat to start engines, turn equipment on, etc. As a potential buyer I'd not want the liability. It is the selling broker's job to demonstrate equipment. Once you have an agreed purchase price and deposited earnest money, you can play with the equipment but you are still liable for damage.

 

[O C Diver]

Dear Mr. Owner - Mr. Owners representative - Mr. Broker, could you please start the engines.

That seems intuitively obvious. If the selling owner/broker had an issue with that, there are larger issues that would warrant caution for this buyer. Moreover, if my broker makes an appointment in advance, I would expect a motivated seller/broker to grant him accompanied access for a walkthrough with pics or Skype to ascertain if it's worth my time to proceed. If the advertisement indicates a significant discrepancy in engine hours resulting from an engine replacement, IMO it's incumbent on the seller to take five minutes to explain how that came to be. If he can't be forthcoming until he sees a deposit, it's not worth my time. I'm already paying my broker to view the boat. His time is valuable and so is mine, and I expect more information than is contained in an advertisement before I can make a sufficiently informed decision to make an offer.

Ok, fine, where does it end. No point running the engines without shifting the transmissions to see if they're working. Are we running and load testing the generator also? Sorry, this is what a survey for a boat under contract is all about.

Let me ask you this Salish, as I'm sure you recognize my time is as valuable to me as yours is to you, would you be willing to pay a fee (applicable toward purchase) for engine and generator startup? I'm guessing for a serious buyer such as yourself, a $300 upfront fee would be trivial and keep the "only looking" from wasting my time.

Ted

 

[salishpaddler]

Ok, fine, where does it end. No point running the engines without shifting the transmissions to see if they're working. Are we running and load testing the generator also? Sorry, this is what a survey for a boat under contract is all about.

Let me ask you this Salish, as I'm sure you recognize my time is as valuable to me as yours is to you, would you be willing to pay a fee (applicable toward purchase) for engine and generator startup? I'm guessing for a serious buyer such as yourself, a $300 upfront fee would be trivial and keep the "only looking" from wasting my time.

Ted

I would not. Nor would I be interested in a boat who's owner is reluctant to start the engine for my representative. There are always other boats whose owners/brokers are discerning enough to distinguish between casual lookers and seriously interested buyers. Your job is to convince my representative to recommend that I follow through with an offer. My broker is knowledgable enough to draw certain conclusions from an engine that starts at the turn of the key or requires coaxing, how it sounds while running and how long it smokes after startup. If you're not willing to demonstrate, you save my time and I'll move on. I'm not interested in a boat with engines that haven't been started in weeks or longer. Call it unreasonable, that's fine with me, but the boat I'm interested in is going to have received attention on a regular schedule, regardless of the presence of a potential buyer. It's going to be clean and free of piles of seagull crap. It's not going have mildew and inhabited spaces suffering from musty odor mixed with diesel fumes. Failure to ensure that is indicative to me of a boat that's been neglected and lacks pride of ownership. It may take some time, but at some point the pieces will fall together. In the meantime, I'm qualified and content to charter a bareboat for a week or two whenever I desire. As I said, I'm a buyer, not a supplicant.

 

[O C Diver]

I would not. Nor would I be interested in a boat who's owner is reluctant to start the engine for my representative. There are always other boats whose owners/brokers are discerning enough to distinguish between casual lookers and seriously interested buyers. Your job is to convince my representative to recommend that I follow through with an offer. My broker is knowledgable enough to draw certain conclusions from an engine that starts at the turn of the key or requires coaxing, how it sounds while running and long it smokes after startup. If you're not willing to demonstrate, you save my time and I'll move on. I'm not interested in a boat with engines that haven't been started in weeks or longer. Call it unreasonable, that's fine with me, but the boat I'm interested in is going to have received attention on a regular schedule, regardless of the presence of a potential buyer. It may take some time, but at some point the pieces will fall together. In the meantime, I'm qualified and content to charter a bareboat for a week or two whenever I desire. As I said, I'm a buyer, not a supplicant.

No, you're a renter not a buyer, and probably always will be. You expect to be treated like you're buying new or into six figures used. It's a buyer's market now with the quality boats going quickly. The problem stuff and the overpriced sit. In the price range you're looking it's easy to see why a selling broker doesn't take a buyer's representative seriously, unless he's trying to unload a cream puff.

Ted

 

[salishpaddler]

No, you're a renter not a buyer, and probably always will be. You expect to be treated like you're buying new or into six figures used. It's a buyer's market now with the quality boats going quickly. The problem stuff and the overpriced sit. In the price range you're looking it's easy to see why a selling broker doesn't take a buyer's representative seriously, unless he's trying to unload a cream puff.

Ted

Tell me, please, what price range am I looking at? Let's see, a five figure deposit would imply a six figure boat. What am I missing here? The 1989 boat that held my interest and on which I made an accepted offer is listed at $149K. I think that's well into six figures. $149000. Yep. Six figures.

BTW, the East Coast isn't the PNW, where it's a seller's market for a quality boat, unless that boat has issues. Simple case in point, that particular vessel is one of only three in the PNW. Pics look fine, but pics are static. They don't tell the whole story. Broker didn't want to start the engines. And he's also deleted the pic that displayed piles of seagull deposits on the hard top and staining the canvas on his Bristol condition boat. Still sitting there. After more than a year. You were saying?

 

[Shrew]

Folks, everyone is entitled to their opinions. The criteria with which we make decisions is different for each individual.

As a buyer, if you want to want to hear the engines run pre-survey that is up to you. If you choose to wait until the survey, again that is up to you.

As the owner, it is also up to you to allow the engines to be started or not.

The buyer is entitled to ask, the seller is entitled to deny. It is what it is. A buyer can choose to accept or reject that denial.

Everyone has said their piece. Everyone has had a crack at trying to sway the opposing party to agree with their viewpoint. This is starting to degrade into a hostile thread.

Please be respectful of people's opinions.

 

[salishpaddler]

Folks, everyone is entitled to their opinions. The criteria with which we make decisions is different for each individual.

As a buyer, if you want to want to hear the engines run pre-survey that is up to you. If you choose to wait until the survey, again that is up to you.

As the owner, it is also up to you to allow the engines to be started or not.

The buyer is entitled to ask, the seller is entitled to deny. It is what it is. A buyer can choose to accept or reject that denial.

Everyone has said their piece. Everyone has had a crack at trying to sway the opposing party to agree with their viewpoint. This is starting to degrade into a hostile thread.

Please be respectful of people's opinions.

Apologies.

 

[O C Diver]

Tell me, please, what price range am I looking at? Let's see, a 5 figure deposit would imply a 6 figure boat. What am I missing here? The 1989 boat that held my interest and on which I made an accepted offer is listed at $149K. I think that's well into 6 figures.

BTW, the East Coast isn't the PNW, where it's a seller's market for a quality boat, unless that boat has issues. Simple case in point, that particular vessel is one of only three in the PNW. Pics look fine, but pics are static. They don't tell the whole story. Broker didn't want to start the engines. And he's also deleted the pic that displayed seagull deposits on his Bristol condition boat. Still sitting there. After more than a year. You were saying?

You proved my point. The boat you're referring to was an overpriced cream puff.

The average of 6 figures is $500,000. Let's do some math. Don't know the broker's commission out there. Lets assume 8% on a $150K boat. Depending on the deal between your broker and the seller's broker that's $6K each before any expenses and a further split between the listing broker and the company he works for. Very quickly it becomes not much of a payday....and you want him to spend a lot of time on you. Version 2 has you flying down, him handling both sides, expenses stay the same, and commission doubles. Double the price of the boat with a buyer's broker and the listing broker still makes money and can invest more time.

Can't speak for the West coast and specifically the PNW, but much of the East coast is a seller's market now.

Ted

 

[Shrew]

Apologies.

My comment was general and not directed at any one individual.