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Old 11-07-2012, 09:21 AM   #41
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Just to keep the wrenches flying...it was a PROFESSIONAL that took the Bounty to sea.
I think there are many who would debate that ... he held a limited license but that is about the extent of it. He operated a recreational vessel that was subject to very very little (if any) operational oversight and with virtually no manning or training requirements. It was in effect just a yacht with a volunteer crew pretending to be be ancient mariners.

It was under 300 tons and documented as an uninspected passenger vessel so was not required to comply with many of the standards that apply to commercial vessels operated by professional mariners, nor was the captain and crew required to meet the same standards of training and certification of a professional mariner operating in a commercial environment.

Professionals make mistakes too but that was not a mistake, it was an example of incompetence and negligence that even his peers condemn. If professional mariners performed the way those people do, the shipping industry would have been shut down years ago. The list of commerical shipping accidents is nothing compared to those added to the CG recreational boating accident database each weekend.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:28 AM   #42
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It appears Daddyo's anchoring threads in the face of a hurricane have gone viral. Break out the Kleenex.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:30 AM   #43
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Viral? Where? Post a link.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:44 AM   #44
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i am not looking to restart the bounty discussion, i simply have a basic question that i have not seen addressed in the little bit of material i've read on the subject. So if someone knows the answer i'd like to hear it and then this thread can be closed if deemed necessary.
fyi
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:53 AM   #45
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I think there are many who would debate that ... he held a limited license but that is about the extent of it. He operated a recreational vessel that was subject to very very little (if any) operational oversight and with virtually no manning or training requirements. It was in effect just a yacht with a volunteer crew pretending to be be ancient mariners.

It was under 300 tons and documented as an uninspected passenger vessel so was not required to comply with many of the standards that apply to commercial vessels operated by professional mariners, nor was the captain and crew required to meet the same standards of training and certification of a professional mariner operating in a commercial environment.

Professionals make mistakes too but that was not a mistake, it was an example of incompetence and negligence that even his peers condemn. If professional mariners performed the way those people do, the shipping industry would have been shut down years ago. The list of commerical shipping accidents is nothing compared to those added to the CG recreational boating accident database each weekend.
Note the smiley face....

I agree about the professional quals but the fact is he was still supposedly a quantum leap over the average weekender/cruiser according to many.

He joins a long list of professional amateurs and professionals that had more than a bad day at sea.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:00 AM   #46
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Note the smiley face...
Oops, sorry, I tend to not even see "smileys" and such or misinterpret them sometimes. I was wondering how or why with your background you would write that, thanks for the correction.

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... he was still supposedly a quantum leap over the average weekender/cruiser according to many....
That is truly frightening.

This thing is starting to get interesting but it is amazing that those who stand to gain the most from the discussion are the most likely to dampen it.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:12 AM   #47
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Thank you Charles and Rick B spot on.

Whilst I am not a professional mariner I am a highly experienced professional aviator and I can testify to the same disconnect in our industry between amateur and pros. I am also a subscriber to gCaptain.

There are a couple of aviation type sayings we have which I'm sure apply equally to the sea.

"It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground."

" Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, but like the sea, is totally unforgiving of any carelessness, incompetence or neglect".

Weather (and fuel) is what we fret most about and treat with the greatest respect. Yes a professional can venture where amateurs may not, but the level at which this may occur is based on a great deal of experience and never ever without a clearly defined and planned get out of jail card ( and the fuel to go with it) in the shirt pocket.
The discipline to bail when it starts to go outside preselected parameters is what you need. At 450-500kts it can turn nasty very quickly, but it's all relative.

The problem we have is that I guess like boating/shipping we all have our individual limits and knowing where that is is the hard part.

Knowing what you don't know is the trick.

I would venture that like aviation the depth of understanding and knowledge of matters weather is not universally at the standard, professional or amateur that we imagine.

Flying is just like sailing, hours and hours of boredom interspersed with the odd moment of abject terror.

Unfortunately ego rears up and looking back and being fortunate/lucky to have survived 40 years without a fatal fright, it is clear that I have got away with some frights that I would now recognse as some truly dumb things.

Oh and.

"There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are very few old bold pilots."
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:57 AM   #48
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Thank you Charles and Rick B spot on.

Whilst I am not a professional mariner I am a highly experienced professional aviator and I can testify to the same disconnect in our industry between amateur and pros. I am also a subscriber to gCaptain.
Your comparison of aviation and the sea seems pretty apt to me. Having an instrument rating, I remember reading about John F. Kennedy Jr. doing a slow cork screw into the Atlantic while flying in haze, killing himself and murdering two others as I recall. My thoughts then were about the same as the ones I had when the Bounty sank - both were life ending mistakes made by someone whose ego was bigger that his skills and judgment.

If you look at the restoration photos on the Bounty website, you can gain some insight into why the vessel leaked so badly that she was entirely dependent on her bilge pumps operating to stay afloat. While the ribs were pretty stout, the planking was modest and it sure looks like it became more modest after the 're-fit'. They removed what appears to be 2.5" planks, and replaced them with what looks to be 1.5" planks. I've seen 65' Malahides with 3" planking, so while it might be appropriate for a movie prop or a fair weather sailor, the captain of the Bounty put her to another use she doesn't seem suitable for at all - chasing hurricanes. The backbone and ribs of a wooden boat can be massive, but she will still twist, especially in a following sea if the planking isn't equally stout providing rigidity. Bounty was planked like a 50' boat, which explains why she was a relative lightweight compared to similar vessels. The more twisting, the faster the water comes in and once it reaches the generators and engines you lose the ability to pump her out with a predictable loss of the vessel, and in this case, two lives.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:46 AM   #49
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She's a bit of a fake though, steel hull with wood planking.
That is not "fake" it is a composite hull ala the Cutty Sark among others.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:28 PM   #50
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She's a bit of a fake though, steel hull with wood planking.
If by steel hull you mean steel framing with wood planking fastened to it, while that might not have been the way the original Bounty was constructed it's a totally legitimate way to build a ship. The Cutty Sark, as Rick pointed out, has iron frames and teak planking. Or it did until it burned a few years ago. I believe the hull is being rebuilt-- or has been already-- with different materials but it is never going anywhere other than its permanent drydock. Metal frames with wood planking was used on the early 12 meter America's Cup boats, too, like Sceptre.
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