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Old 10-11-2014, 12:28 AM   #1
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A boats true value?

So now that it has been awhile since the 95k Defever has been sold ( in 2 weeks or less I believe), I was wondering what a boat is truly worth. We have been looking at many boats online and in person and there are a few we like, but now, we have no idea what we should pay for one. I believe the Defever was an anomaly, but how far off was it and how much are newer or other boats worth if it sold for 95k? There are a few Defever's on yachtworld that have been for sale for a long time and all at a much higher asking price. And although I have only looked at 1 in person, they all seem to be less equipped and cared for than the 95k Defever.

And if a 49 Defever is only worth 95k, what is a 4788/4588 Bayliner worth that is much newer, because they seem to be sitting on yachtworld for some time and with all the boats available, are there asking prices too high? I know a Bayliner is not a "trawler" in the truest sence, but they are really nice boats and made in the US, and are newer. We like the Defever style as well and cannot decide what we want yet and how much to pay. And, I assume that all Defever's were built in Taiwan and with most boats from there, I assume you have to look for blisters on the hulls, Teak deck issues, ect.

All in All, the more I read and look, the more I get confused Any opinions on the value of boats and the market in general would be greatly appreciated. Thanks as Always
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Old 10-11-2014, 01:12 AM   #2
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Boat Business 101- to masters degree;

Boats priced correctly for their condition and the market don't last long on the market. I'm gonna spill the beans of why you see so many overpriced boats on Yachtworld. There are many reasons;
1. One is required to have a X (I forget the number) minimum of Central Listings to continue to be a member of Yachtworld. If you sold out- your out.

Since 08 when many boat builders went out of business there was also an avalanche of repos, a huge amount of yachts were put on ships never to see America again. I USED to (as did many brokers) sell the same boat over and over. One boat I sold seven times before it too went overseas. This all has created a huge shortage of inventory out there to list, much less sell, so some brokers will list boats really not for sale ("I don't want to really sell her") to have enough listings to satisfy the minimum required. Price it high enough it's guaranteed not to sell. Then years later you might see the same boat priced correctly-that's because the owner is now ready to sell.

2. THEN there's new salesmen that need listings to satisfy the boss.

3. The worst are brokers that are afraid to counsel their clients at what price to market their boats. There's a Bayliner 57 thats been for sale for 14 years now. The owner just won't listen to reality. As a broker our biggest job is not dealing with buyers-nope it's trying to make delusional owners SEE reality so it will be out of their hair, but they'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in carrying costs, when it would had been cheaper for them to have cut her loose years ago at less a loss. You can show some guys comps to your blue in the face, but will still say "I'm sure if a buyer just see's my boat he'll pick it over those newer boats for the same money". I can only tell them:"BUT NO BUYER WILL EVER COME LOOK AT YOUR OLDER BOAT IF THEY SEE A MUCH NEWER ONE ADVERTISED AT THE SAME PRICE, The days of drug addled dudes with sacks of cash walking the docks are GONE". Well, they might be still out there, but most all the damn marinas have gates now! It's truly amazing this reality disconnect some have with values. And on January 1st they'll all be worth less.

The smart broker doesn't take these overpriced listing which is why you see some selling a lot of boats, and others having the same sad listing for decades it seems. Whats worse (for them) is they attract other overpriced listing.

4.Then there's the owner who just flat out paid too much when he bought. I see this regularly with older fellows who bought years ago and were late to using the internet, and just sauntered into a dealership who just 'laid them out' so their payoff is still higher than market. "Heck yeah we'll give you $200k (for boat worth $100k) trade in on your boat"-(because they have $200k mark up and effectively took it for free) I'm amazed how many otherwise intelligent people really don't understand how trades work.

Here's another secret I can now share: Not all dealers received the same amount of boats from the factory. How many you received (and annual rebate from the factory that determined their real profit, and they still keep that secret) was based on how many boats they sold the year before. Whereas a volume seller on the West Coast or in South Florida could sell you a boat for hundreds of thousands less than a dealers in the hinterlands who only received two boats a year. I guess they could had sold them for the same low price, but they wouldn't had made enough money to stay in business. A 2001 4788 sold new in South Florida could be bought for $360k, whilst the same boat in Ct., Michigan, Missouri, or even north Florida- would cost you $500k (yes, that's correct) and IF a buyer from those other areas came into a cheaper dealers territory and bought a boat- the dealer would have to throw money back to the other dealer- it's called "territorial protection".

5. Then there's the guys who traded in a boat and wrapped the old boat loan in with the new loan but years later seems to have forgotten this fact, and are now expecting you to pay for two boats (or more) while only giving you one.

6.Over the years I've also seen many "ghost listings" which are boats that flat out never existed. Just listings purely fabricated out of thin air with photos of other boats. I still see them on Yachtworld.

7. Supply and demand to a certain extent.

Soldboats.com is 90% accurate these days. I no longer see the sales of these ghost listings there like I used to. To that I'll give YW credit.
A broker can show you comps of actual sales and hopefully explain to you WHY the price differences (location, features, plus there's a little brokers blurb that doesn't print that should say if the boat had survey issues, etc., or was just a great deal as seller was just wanting out)

Brokers that specialize in particular marques can tell you the market on those boats.
So pick up the phone and call the brokers that specialize in the boats you want-there's way more information they can give you such as market trends, the popular model years, and why- damaged boats, latent defects, location, differences in engines, etc. Brokers usually aren't expecting to make a sale on the first call, and should tell you everything you need to know.
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Old 10-11-2014, 01:36 AM   #3
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Here's what I know about 4788's

My slip mate sold his nice condition 1994 4788 for $179K a month ago.

If it were me buying I'd research the sellers a little. See if the boat has a mortgage on it. Try to determine what the sellers CAN take and then work from there.

Its my guess but I think you can get a good late model 4788 with a list of extras for $200K or so on the west coast. Possibly a little less, possibly not. You'll pay less for the boat with Hino engines. You'll pay more for boats with tons of "extras".

Just remember that outfitting a boat this size is not cheap. I have $15K in my heating system. Another 15K in nav electronics. A new skiff for this size boat can run upwards of another $15K. As you can see you can drop $50K really fast, just outfitting a 50' boat.

In my opinion you'll get a better value out of buying a boat someone else has kept updated, paying more up front, than buying the cheapest boat you can, and sinking several months salary into fitting out.
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Old 10-11-2014, 02:05 AM   #4
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Ditto on ksanders and Pilothouseking. I own a 4788 and love it. 1997 and later means Cummins engines and no wood coring, including the bow and flybridge decks. That is a big deal. Asking prices are typically in the mid 190s to the 240s, selling prices tend to be 190-210K. That's for a well cared for boat with a decent dinghy, OK electronics and perhaps a bow thruster or diesel heat.

What people are starting to realize is that the Bayliner yachts, especially the 4788, were well-made boats. And the interior layout is very well designed. We run our 4788 at trawler speeds 80% of the time. The Pilothouse is a treat for running the boat, and on a nice day you can' treat driving from the flybridge.
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Old 10-11-2014, 09:34 AM   #5
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picture yourself here.... Full width pilot house. People say it looks like a space ship with all the gadgets.



or sitting at anchor and relaxing in your salon. We have a very comfortable coutch big enough for two to stretch out and lay down, or several to sit, Plus I have a full size recliner.



Would your wife like the size of the kitchen??? Two sinks, nice stove with oven, trash smasher. Plus a wet bar, and ice maker, off to the side. Little things count. Things like the real vent hood, just like your house make cooking just like at home.



Oh, couple all this with a 600 mile range, and a seaworthy hull and you can explore any coastline in the americas, or the carribean.


Your dreams include Alaska, or Mexico, or both??? Yes, You can do that.

When it comes time to explore, well... How about that every Bayliner 4788 came from the factory with a ships crane rated for 750 lbs. I can get my very heavy skiff on and off my boat by myself in 5 minutes

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Old 10-11-2014, 11:38 AM   #6
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A boat is worth what someone will pay for it, period. Forget listing prices. As noted above, many are inflated for many reasons and will never sell at that price.

I would only look at Soldboats as noted above for advice on what a boat is worth.

But if you like a boat and you think it is overpriced, make an offer for what YOU think the boat is worth. You may be surprised.

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Old 10-11-2014, 12:36 PM   #7
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A boat is worth what someone will pay for it, period. Forget listing prices. As noted above, many are inflated for many reasons and will never sell at that price.

I would only look at Soldboats as noted above for advice on what a boat is worth.

But if you like a boat and you think it is overpriced, make an offer for what YOU think the boat is worth. You may be surprised.pr

David
Now that boat fire season is approaching, don't forget the value of insurance fraud. One can get one's boat insured for far more than it's really worth on the market.
Just a couple of corrections to other posts. The market is always in flux, and right now today there's several nice 4788s asking $149k-S175k from a 98 to 2001. Heck, you can now buy 5788s for less than what 4788s cost six years ago.
The lowest sold prices still remain in the Bay area, but that's an anomaly due to its geographic isolation and expense to truck, and the long offshore distances to leave (something not many buyers will tackle in a newly bought used boat-I wouldn't) so we don't use those for comps. So much for the myth of higher prices on the west coast. PNW isn't far behind. Rather dependent on local buyers as no regularly scheduled ships depart anywhere out there to Australia and New Zealand, otherwise all those boats out there would had been vacuumed up like on the East Coast.

NONE of the 47s had wood coring anywhere. I have a page on my site showing their construction details with factory drawings. Most buyers prefer 97s due to major upgrades and 99s and newer for the stainless rubrails. Pre-99 they just have a little strip of aluminum covering the hull/deck joint. It offersno protection at all. You will see some pre-99s that have had stainless over rubber rubrails retrofitted.
Kevins boat is a 2001 model and they're rather desirable due to the light colored countertops, also seen in 05 Meridians. Bright and airy.

My website is chock-a-block on information about these boats. They don't call me the Pilothouse King for nothing. Well it could be the crown I wear, the sword I carry, and my wife's tiara.
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Old 10-11-2014, 01:00 PM   #8
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A boat is worth what someone will pay for it, period. Forget listing prices. As noted above, many are inflated for many reasons and will never sell at that price.

I would only look at Soldboats as noted above for advice on what a boat is worth.

But if you like a boat and you think it is overpriced, make an offer for what YOU think the boat is worth. You may be surprised.

David
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Old 10-11-2014, 01:03 PM   #9
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A boat is worth what someone will pay for it, period. Forget listing prices. As noted above, many are inflated for many reasons and will never sell at that price.

I would only look at Soldboats as noted above for advice on what a boat is worth.

But if you like a boat and you think it is overpriced, make an offer for what YOU think the boat is worth. You may be surprised.

David
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Old 10-12-2014, 12:52 PM   #10
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Thanks for all the info! So, as KSanders stated, " a boat with Hino's will sell for less". Is this an engine package I should avoid as I have asked around about parts (northern ca.) and have not gotten a lot of good response! Cummins on the other hand seem to be available everywhere. And, also, do the Bayliner's have "bubble" issues on the hulls like older Taiwan built boats do or is this just and "age" thing in general? Great input from all, thank you!
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Old 10-12-2014, 01:23 PM   #11
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Thanks for all the info! So, as KSanders stated, " a boat with Hino's will sell for less". Is this an engine package I should avoid as I have asked around about parts (northern ca.) and have not gotten a lot of good response! Cummins on the other hand seem to be available everywhere. And, also, do the Bayliner's have "bubble" issues on the hulls like older Taiwan built boats do or is this just and "age" thing in general? Great input from all, thank you!
There is nothing wrong with the Hino engines.

The cummins engine boats command higher prices because of perception.

No hull issues with the boats. No unique issues at all. The 4788 is a well designed, and well built boat.
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Old 10-12-2014, 01:24 PM   #12
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Hinos are "orphan" engines, no longer produced for marine service. Aluminum exhaust manifold/heat exchanger that is prone to corrosion. Parts hard to find, although some may be available from non-OEM vendors.

Cummins engines still in production, all parts available.
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Old 10-12-2014, 02:06 PM   #13
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There is nothing wrong with the Hino engines.

The cummins engine boats command higher prices because of perception.

No hull issues with the boats. No unique issues at all. The 4788 is a well designed, and well built boat.
There was a small boat show at Marina Jack's in Sarasota, FL yesterday. My Admiral spotted a 4788 and immediately wanted to go aboard. This was perfectly OK with me, cuz I wanted to check one out anyway. Very impressive! True, there is a bit of the RV look with the simulated wood, but still leaves a clean impression. This one was 200K... really well taken care of, it appears. Pretty amazing vessel with lots of good ideas, great layout, big spaces. The Admiral agrees that if we were living aboard full time, it's a goodie.

Machinery access not much worse than ours. Keeping the galley design very open toward the salon made food storage so-so, but one could easily redesign for more.. The access doors to head plumbing in the companionway was the best idea I've seen yet.
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Old 10-12-2014, 03:51 PM   #14
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I saw a 1988 Albin 43' with cummins power newer Garmin electronics a rib with ob for $54,900.00. I know nothing about Albin boats but that sounded like it was priced to sell, if I was looking for a different boat I would of definitely checked it out.
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Old 10-12-2014, 04:06 PM   #15
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There was a small boat show at Marina Jack's in Sarasota, FL yesterday. My Admiral spotted a 4788 and immediately wanted to go aboard. This was perfectly OK with me, cuz I wanted to check one out anyway. Very impressive! True, there is a bit of the RV look with the simulated wood, but still leaves a clean impression. This one was 200K... really well taken care of, it appears. Pretty amazing vessel with lots of good ideas, great layout, big spaces. The Admiral agrees that if we were living aboard full time, it's a goodie.

Machinery access not much worse than ours. Keeping the galley design very open toward the salon made food storage so-so, but one could easily redesign for more.. The access doors to head plumbing in the companionway was the best idea I've seen yet.
Thanks

But the wood is not simulated.

The teak trim is teak trim. The flat surfaces are Teak Veneer over plywood, just like any other boat. The only simulated wood is on the instrument panel in the pilot house

Some of the 4788's came out with a light ash interior, which was popular back in the day. To me that interior is RV looking, but I've seen the same interior on a custom Delta from the early 90's as well.

What makes it different is it is not finished dark, and it has some sort of rather flat looking finish to it.
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Old 10-12-2014, 04:30 PM   #16
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For a few years the teak veneer was finished with a UV- protectant that unfortunately turned a light pastel greenish color. Maybe that is what you noticed? I know one guy who had the wood stripped and refinished with a gorgeous multiple cost of varnish. I got a quote from his woodworker and it was spitting distance from ten grand. I didn't bother.

The Hinos are good engines and the folks who have them love them. You can find parts online, but as you noted I like the fact that if I have issues while out somewhere remote it will be a lot easier to find parts and a good Cummins mechanic than the same for Hinos.
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Old 10-12-2014, 05:10 PM   #17
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There was a small boat show at Marina Jack's in Sarasota, FL yesterday. My Admiral spotted a 4788 and immediately wanted to go aboard. This was perfectly OK with me, cuz I wanted to check one out anyway. Very impressive! True, there is a bit of the RV look with the simulated wood, but still leaves a clean impression. This one was 200K... really well taken care of, it appears. Pretty amazing vessel with lots of good ideas, great layout, big spaces. The Admiral agrees that if we were living aboard full time, it's a goodie.

Machinery access not much worse than ours. Keeping the galley design very open toward the salon made food storage so-so, but one could easily redesign for more.. The access doors to head plumbing in the companionway was the best idea I've seen yet.
I think if boats similar to the 4788, 5288 and 5788 were on the market new today, they'd really fill a void, as long as they were priced as before. This doesn't mean the same price as before, but a good price at the low end of the market. In fact, looking at Orin Edson's legacy, give me a line with Bayliner equivalent's from 40 to 60' and toss in the Pacific Mariner 65, which sold over 200 boats but is no longer offered by Westport and I think you have a tremendous boat line. Look at how popular the old Bayliner's are. They've held up well, both physically and in terms of meeting needs. And they were well built boats when they were built in Arlington, WA.

For those not familiar with the circumstances of the death of these boats, a brief recap. While Bayliner was able to build and sell profitably, with their overhead, facilities, and general situation Brunswick felt they needed a substantial price increase. So the way they chose to get that was drop the Bayliner label and re-tag as Meridian while raising the price quite significantly.
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Old 10-12-2014, 08:19 PM   #18
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There was a small boat show at Marina Jack's in Sarasota, FL yesterday. My Admiral spotted a 4788 and immediately wanted to go aboard. .
just sent you a PM
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Old 10-12-2014, 08:44 PM   #19
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So much for the myth of higher prices on the west coast. PNW isn't far behind. Rather dependent on local buyers as no regularly scheduled ships depart anywhere out there to Australia and New Zealand, otherwise all those boats out there would had been vacuumed up like on the East Coast.

Not so. Scheduled monthly service available.
http://yacht-transport.com.au/

Base load for the service is lumber going south and steel going north.

And the details direct from the shipping line
http://www.swireshipping.com/images/...st%20Coast.pdf
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Old 10-12-2014, 09:07 PM   #20
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Not so. Scheduled monthly service available.
Aurora Yacht Logistics & Transport

And the details direct from the shipping line
http://www.swireshipping.com/images/...st%20Coast.pdf
I should had been more specific and said "regularly scheduled yacht shippers" and by that I mean ships that come prepared to pick up yachts and have their own cradles like Seven Star and Dockwise. There's always been deck cargo if one provides your own cradle, (have to find somebody build one) but the logistics of having a boat arrive at a port, and a cradle arrive at the same time to load one on the other, then quickly load it on a ship is almost impossible, as the ships seldom arrive on schedule, and the where to await (you can't stay at the port on the boat) until it does, and have the cradle sit somewhere too makes it almost impossible. It's been done but it's rare. The logistics of it all are too time consuming and difficult for most buyers, captains, truckers, sellers, and brokers.I have an agent in LA I trust, and it's difficult even for him. Plus the bankruptcy of that line that serviced the Pacific stranding people have made us wary of anybody but Seven Star or Dockwise (now same owners) and even they are prone to being late by months or not showing up at all.
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