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Old 02-25-2012, 07:31 PM   #21
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RE: Boatless?

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Keith wrote:
nobama has actively fought oil production to force the price higher, to make alternative energy sources more feasible. It's an agenda.
*Correct!
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:02 AM   #22
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RE: Boatless?

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Keith wrote:nobama has actively fought oil production to force the price higher, to make alternative energy sources more feasible. It's an agenda.* Wrong
Marin Wrote:

*So our fuel supply is "short" but not short because it really is, but because more fuel is going elsewhere which means the oil companies earn more on two fronts--- higher prices in the US and higher sales volume in the developing countries where the fuel that would have been sold in the US is going. Right
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This has been documented!! By encouraging other countries like Brazil, to drill, refine and export oil, our Big Oil will have to lower their price if they expect to sell anything to China. It is a fact, we are using less oil that we did some years ago and the excess is being sold to China, keeping our supply low and with it, higher prices.
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:56 AM   #23
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RE: Boatless?

You are absolutely correct. I have been involved in oil and gas since the 1990 and for the 4 weeks ending Feb 10, 2012 the refiners in the US have exported 2.928 million barrels of distilled product per day. 85% of it is gasoline. US refiners are not allowed to export oil produced in the US but can export refined products, nice loophole. This price increase is driven by speculators, political unrest and international demand by China, India plus developing countries. This is capitalism at its best and exactly how it is supposed to work. Highest bidder gets the supply and other countries are willing and able to pay more than US customers. Refinery capacity in the mid west and gulf coast is more than adaquate to supply US market even with some of them down for maintence in other parts of the US. There is more oil being discovered and the concept of pike oil is now being reevaluated.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:52 PM   #24
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RE: Boatless?

The Obama administration has taken the huge oil reserves of the US off the table. *As far as the world market is concerned, it is as if they do not exist. *This has a huge affect on the psychology of the market. *It makes supplies appear tighter than the known reserves would indicate. *That causes an increase in the value of the known active supplies. *This in effect supports the agenda to drive us to green energy sources.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:20 PM   #25
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Boatless?

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SeaHorse II wrote:The GD oil companies appear to be the villains as far as the price of gas & diesel is concerned.
*I don't think it's just the oil companies.* The price and distribution of oil is as much determined by the oil speculators--- here and abroad--- as it is by the oil companies themselves.* Even more so maybe.

I don't blame the oil companies for the price of fuel so much as I do the speculators and commodities "brokers."* The oil companies pump it out, turn it into something, and sell that something to whoever pays the most for it minus whatever political pressure can be brought to bear on them not to.

The amount a country or distribution company pays for oil or refined petroleum products is largely based on what the commodities speculators on the planet--- the middle men as it were--- have done to the price.

If they make it more profitable--- for themselves AND the oil companies--- to sell product in country X than in country Y, the product will go to country X.

Then when you add on the taxes countries, states/provinces, counties, cities even, attach to the sale of fuel to the public to raise revenue, the water starts getting really muddy.* The oil companies don't have anything to do with or reap any benefit or penalty from the taxes attached to the price of a gallon/litre of fuel.* The taxes are courtesy of our elected officials.

I read somewhere awhile back that the actual price of a gallon or litre of gasoline in the US was pretty much the same as the price of a gallon or litre of gasoline in Europe.* The big difference was not what the oil companies were selling their product for, but the taxes that were applied to the product along the line from the tanker that brought it to the tank in your car.

I don't know if this is still true as energy becomes a more volatile commodity on the planet, or if it was ever true.* But the explanation I read at the time made sense.* And he will find getting back into boating much more pleasant.* And we'll all owe him big time.

So, you can blame the oil companies if you want to.* It's sort of like blaming Ford for the increasing cost of automobiles.* And I don't mean to imply that the oil companies are the poor innocents who are just "doing their job."

But I think the consumer's wrath is far more deserved by the speculators and commodities brokers who do NOTHING to produce, refine, or distribute fuel but simply make oodles of money--- oodles that are paid for by us in the cost of the product--- by "passing" the product through their grubby little hands.

This same mentality can be found in the guys who at one end pay a lobsterman $2.00 a pound for a lobster which at the oher end costs you $20 a pound.

While a US president might have some effect on all this in the form of some sort of "energy" policy (which the global market will for the most part totally ignore), I think the effect of whatever the president believes about energy has pretty much squat-all to do with what you pay for a gallon of gas this afternoon.* In that respect I no more blame Obama for my fuel bill than I did Bush or Clinton or Bush or Reagan or.........

It seems a little hypocritical and naive to on the one hand preach about how socialism/communism is bad and that captitalism and free markets and the individual right to succeed is where it's at, and then whine about what capitalism, free markets, and the individual right to succeed has done to your fuel bill. :-)

PS-- Regarding the pipeline that Obama supposedly "nixed," it's my understanding that the pipeline and its proposed route has to be approved by every state it would cross.* Nebraska didn't like the route and said so.* They want the route changed in certain places.* It is my understanding based on what I've heard on the radio and read that Obama put a hold on the project at Nebraska's--- or at least the people in Nebraska with the power's-- request to hold it up it until Nebraska's concerns could be addressed.

And what does all this have to do with Doc's original question?* Well, if Doc can wipe out the oil speculators on the planet he will probably find that the cost of filling the tank on a boat will come down, or stay the same, or at least not go up so fast. So he wil find returning to boating that much more pleasant and we will all owe him big time.





-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 26th of February 2012 05:48:42 PM
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Old 02-26-2012, 05:50 PM   #26
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RE: Boatless?

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Marin wrote:It seems a little hypocritical and naive to on the one hand preach about how socialism/communism is bad and that captitalism and free markets and the individual right to succeed is where it's at, and then whine about what capitalism, free markets, and the individual right to succeed has done to your fuel bill.
*Right on.
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Old 02-26-2012, 05:53 PM   #27
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RE: Boatless?

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Marin wrote: I don't think it's just the oil companies.* The price and distribution of oil is as much determined by the oil speculators--- here and abroad--- as it is by the oil companies themselves.* Even more so maybe.
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* * * ** What I am talking* about here is the supply of oil that is available to the US consumer in the form of gasoline. What taxes are imposed or what the speculators price crude at does not impact the* price as much as the available supply does. We have plenty of oil in the US to satisfy our needs but when a* big portion of that supply is rerouted to China, (thus keeping the US consumer's supply low) the price on what's available* to US consumers goes up.

It seems that about every publication, TV news show & radio talk show is complaining about the lack of crude here in the US. They are quick to blame the President, Congress and anyone or any body else they can think of. Why do you think our government is pretty much ignoring the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd? It's because they know what the real problem is and by blaming it on the speculators, payback is achieved for the people that put them in office!

Fact: Big oil is shipping a huge amount of "our oil" over seas, thus keeping the price high because of the available supply to US refineries. I am not at liberty to say how I know this, but trust me! I know this! :frustrated:
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Old 02-26-2012, 06:15 PM   #28
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SeaHorse II wrote:
* * * ** What I am talking* about here is the supply of oil that is available to the US consumer in the form of gasoline. What taxes are imposed or what the speculators price crude at does not impact the* price as much as the available supply does. We have plenty of oil in the US to satisfy our needs but when a* big portion of that supply is rerouted to China, (thus keeping the US consumer's supply low) the price on what's available* to US consumers goes up.
I agree with that.* All I'm saying is that part of the reason oil is re-routed to the best markets is what the speculators do to enhance those markets.* This in turn reduces the supply avaiable for the US market, which is not as lucrative as the overseas market.*

But then in an, "Oh, by the way" move, the oil companies and the speculators say, "since there's not so much fuel available here right now, you're gonna have to compete (aka pay more for) what there is."

Under normal circumstances (meaning way in the past) reduced fuel demand in the US meant a rollback of product price.* Then everyone in the business realized this was dumb, so they adapted the strategy of reducing production for various "reasons" when the demand dropped so that the supply would drop right along with the demand and the price would stabilize at "no change."* Or if they got really creative, they could reduce production even more than the reduction in demand and then the price could go up even though the demand was falling.

Now we have this big global market so the industry has a new win-win strategy.* Doesn't matter what the demand does in the US anymore because all these other countries can't get enough of it at any price.* So they can supply fuel a high prices to this rapidly growing market outside the US while at the same time reducing the supply of fuel in the US.* So even if the demand in the US fell to one gallon a day, the industry would simply send all their product to these markets clamoring for fuel and leave a half-gallon of gas here.* So the price of fuel here would still be sky high.

There's only one way to beat this so far as I can see, and that's to become part of the fuel industry.* Either directly or as a stockholder, which is what I did a long time ago when it became pretty apparent what was happening.

Hoping the gummint or some other white knight is going to show up to fix this is living in a dream world.

By the way, Newt pretty much drove the last nail into the coffin of his political career here in Washington (State) last weak when during a rally he promised that if elected president he would get us $2.50 a gallon gas.* Even dyed-in -the-wool conservatives doubled over in stitches at that one according to the paper.

Between his moon colony and $2.50 a gallon fuel, I think Newt has pretty much blown his crediblity with anyone having an IQ greater than their shoe size.





-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 26th of February 2012 07:19:17 PM
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:00 PM   #29
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RE: Boatless?

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Old Stone wrote:
About time for "Off the Deep End" ?
You're right on with that one.* If the moderators don't move it I suggest we do if anyone wants to continue the conversation.
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:52 AM   #30
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RE: Boatless?

Why are my posts always hijacked? I guess everyone picks on a boatless person.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:11 AM   #31
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RE: Boatless?

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Why are my posts always hijacked? I guess everyone picks on a boatless person.
*Boatless people aren't worthy.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:24 AM   #32
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RE: Boatless?

I am looking in the yellow pages for a boatless shelter that will take me and my dog in. His cigars might be a problem. The gun is probably OK.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:29 AM   #33
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Boatless?

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Doc wrote:
I am looking in the yellow pages for a boatless shelter that will take me and my dog in. His cigars might be a problem. The gun is probably OK.
*Doc, to show how inclusive I am, when you get to Chattanooga I'll take you to lunch at 212 Market. *Does that ease the pain?

PS: It's not polite to gloat about not buying fuel on a power boat forum!


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Monday 27th of February 2012 09:33:18 AM
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:21 PM   #34
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RE: Boatless?

Quote:
Moonstruck wrote:Doc wrote:
I am looking in the yellow pages for a boatless shelter that will take me and my dog in. His cigars might be a problem. The gun is probably OK.
*Doc, to show how inclusive I am, when you get to Chattanooga I'll take you to lunch at 212 Market. *Does that ease the pain?

PS: It's not polite to gloat about not buying fuel on a power boat forum!



-- Edited by Moonstruck on Monday 27th of February 2012 09:33:18 AM

*Don,

Take him to the Boathouse for lunch instead so he can watch the boats go by.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:29 PM   #35
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RE: Boatless?

Quote:
Woodsong wrote:Moonstruck wrote:Doc wrote:
I am looking in the yellow pages for a boatless shelter that will take me and my dog in. His cigars might be a problem. The gun is probably OK.
*Doc, to show how inclusive I am, when you get to Chattanooga I'll take you to lunch at 212 Market. *Does that ease the pain?

PS: It's not polite to gloat about not buying fuel on a power boat forum!



-- Edited by Moonstruck on Monday 27th of February 2012 09:33:18 AM

*Don,

Take him to the Boathouse for lunch instead so he can watch the boats go by.

*Tony, Doc likes 212 Market. *Since I was figuring on an afternoon outing with him on your boat, you can come too.
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:15 PM   #36
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RE: Boatless?

If your house costs more than your boat, then your priorities are all screwed up.
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:38 PM   #37
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RE: Boatless?

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Keith wrote:
If your house costs more than your boat, then your priorities are all screwed up.
*Mine were about the same. *Am I fair and balanced, or what?
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:15 PM   #38
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RE: Boatless?

Same here.* At least the property taxes will be about the same.
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Old 02-27-2012, 10:43 PM   #39
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RE: Boatless?

I can't take credit for this but it does come to mind. Maybe I saw it on this forum. Here it is...

I spent most of my money on women and boats... the rest, I wasted."
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