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Old 02-15-2009, 04:04 PM   #101
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

"...keeping in mind that I change more often than usual."

I think that is the secret to your success with the filters. Is it a better way to do it? It depends on the price of filters vs the price of oil. Like many engineering choices, it's a matter of cost effectiveness.

Technically, your early oil changes assure you of not reaching the limit of the additive's ability to retain "insolubles" in suspension and the filters may be oversized for the load you place on them.

Please, please do not be afraid*to pose a situation or ask a question. I have never ridiculed anyone for asking an honest question. I can assure you that no matter how simple*a question may seem after it is answered, it was important to the person who*asked it. I don't believe that I have ever confused a legitimate question with the sort of cheap shot recently illustrated here and I don't ridicule anyone who has a sincere interest in the dialog. Most of us probably asked the same question at some time, we aren't born with this stuff ...
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:12 PM   #102
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Marin,

FF pretty much nailed the piston cooling.

There are several reasons a large sump is used. One is to allow the engine to operate at extreme angles, the other is to provide for a large oil supply to aid in heat removal, and to permit longer running periods between oil changes. The engine adds X amount of contaminants and consumes*Y amount of additives per running hour so a*small oil*volume is*loaded/depleted faster than a large volume.*
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:54 PM   #103
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

In my business, mining, it is common to send oil filters off for metals analysis. Amazing the amount of solid stuff that shows up in each change - mind you that is maybe 200 to 500 hours/filter change in a few weeks for heavy use. An interesting exercise is to cut your oil filter element apart after use and examine it - wash crud off with diesel. After doing this I believe you'd convince ourself to follow manufacturers specs - at least during the warranty period. After that period you can assess saving your 20 bucks per year on oil filters.
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Old 02-15-2009, 06:47 PM   #104
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Boating and fuel cost

Thanks FF and RickB for your explanations. The original Series I, II, IIa, and III Land Rovers (I don't know about the new-fangled, shiny ones) were rated for a 45 degree slope going up or down and a 30-degree sidehill. So I can see where having a high sump capacity would be important to prevent oil starvation of the pump.

I suppose the same could be said for the Ford Dorset engine (the base engine for the Ford Lehman 120) as its original use in highway vehicles and later agricultural equipment like tractors and combines would have put the engines at some pretty high angles.* I assume the 12-quart capacity*sump pan*on an FL120 is the same pan Ford installed on the engine--- most of the marinization parts created by Lehman Bros. have their name stamped on them.


-- Edited by Marin at 19:56, 2009-02-15
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Old 02-16-2009, 03:12 AM   #105
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

There IS a downside to a huge sump, it takes longer to fully warm the oil.

Seldom a problem for boaters as our use cycle is usually long, hours not min.

In piston aircraft where a huge oil supply is required (50 -150G) , and it may be cool at altitude the solution is a dry sump, and an oil hopper .
This is an open tank (think a large pipe with holes in it) for the supply and return , and the surrounding oil is there as needed.

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Old 02-16-2009, 05:54 AM   #106
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

"... it takes longer to fully warm the oil."

Which isn't all that bad, cool oil is good. So long as the pressure remains in limits nothing will be harmed. If it stays within limits it means the pressure relief valve is working and there is flow.

Larger engines also use a dry sump and control oil temperture*with a vernatherm type device. Temperature limiting is the*objective for a marine engine, with proper viscosity an added benefit.

Do you remember oil dilution switches?
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Old 02-16-2009, 01:08 PM   #107
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Vinny
Well put.
You have my 5 cents too, so we're up to a dime!
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Old 02-16-2009, 08:46 PM   #108
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Quote:
RickB wrote:
Do you remember oil dilution switches?
Yes, the Beaver I fly has one.* But in this climate (PNW) it is never used.
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:33 PM   #109
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

I used to drive a C-45 in Montana and used them all the time in Winter. Park a few hours at -30 and restarts could be tricky without a long preheat that wasn't always available.
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:27 AM   #110
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Do you remember oil dilution switches?

Thank GOD for "Plane Captains" (enlisted flight crew) that would go out hours before the TO and burn off the diluted oil.

When there is a 75G lube oil tank, its a while.

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Old 02-17-2009, 08:52 AM   #111
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

No idea what y'all are talking about. Just hit the starter and wait til 25% N1 add a little fuel....and poof....starts everytime!!!!....
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Old 02-17-2009, 12:05 PM   #112
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Just hit the starter and wait til 25% N1 add a little fuel....and poof....starts everytime!!!!..

Not on a 3350 in Iceland !!
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:47 PM   #113
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Rick,

1st of all I have never had any fear of asking questions.
I think the main reason I do my every 3rd filter thing is that it is so easy to do. It only takes a few minutes to change oil when you don't have to mess with the filter. Just pump or drain the oil out and pour the new in. Many or most of our trawlers have a hand pump so we can pump it out when it's hot as long as we don't spill it and put it in later. Very good idea to put a " no oil " tag on the throttle or starter key. I'm not the least bit over concerned about the cost of filters.
One thing about the high volume oil pumps you guys haven't mentioned yet is the power it takes to drive them. I had a much smaller oil pump put in my BW gear to reduce the power loss. It takes 5hp to drive that pump. The BW is used on 2-300hp engines and with my 37hp .. just didn't need the high output pump. All the accessories on an engine take a suprising amount of power to run.

Vinny,

Once in a while I look at the over the deep end rant page but almost always I just look at the topics and notice it's the same old stuff and go elsewhere. I don't think we need a rant page at all. It dosn't do ANYBODY any good. On the other hand if we don't dive in there to vent and rage what harm does it do?
1. It turns people off that drop in browsing around. We have probably lost members because of it.
2. As you point out the rage brobably spills out onto other threads.
3. Wether we like it or not the ODE thread alters who we are. If the ODE was 5% of our site .. I see no problem. But it's not .. its maybe 35-40%. What if it were 80%? Would we be a boating fourm? I think not, and any activity whithin the site thats not trawler boating related errodes our standing as a boating site.
Is there anybody here that thinks ODE has value?
I think we all know how threads wander all over the place so there could be a lot of conversion about a topic I'm very interested in so if I didn't browse I'd miss out and without the ODE the conversion would'nt take place. This is the only positive thing I see in ODE.
Yeah Vinny, I'd say nobody owns the posts. You can have this one! No, I guess not since nobody owns it so I can't give iy away. Seriously, I would like to see many more people talking on this site.

Eric Henning
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:33 PM   #114
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

" ... poof....starts everytime!!!!"

Sounds like a bunch of hot air to me ...
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:59 PM   #115
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

FF,

*** What in God's green earth is " 25% N1 "

Eric Henning
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Old 02-17-2009, 06:56 PM   #116
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Boating and fuel cost

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

FF,

*** What in God's green earth is " 25% N1 "

Eric Henning
Oh, you're not gonna like this, Eric...... It's aviation stuff.* A typical fanjet engine has two or three independently*rotating shafts, depending on the manufacturer.* The shafts hold the fan blades, compressor blades, turbine blades and so on.* The shafts do not all turn at the same speed when the engine is running.

I don't know how the nomenclature got started, but the shafts are referred to by an "N" number.* So the shaft that has the fan blades on it it might be "N1", the shaft with the compressor blades might be "N2" and so on (I don't remember which shaft is which right now).

Turbofan engine shafts turn REALLY fast.* So the rpm of each shaft*is expressed as a percentage of maximum (I think) rpm rather than an actual rpm number.

When a turbofan is started, compressed air (usually) is used to get the shafts turning which starts the airflow through the entire*engine.* (On smaller turbine engines like Otters, helicopters, etc the starter is electric.)*When the airflow reaches a certain volume, the fuel is turned on and the engine "ignites."* The proper point at which the fuel is turned on is expressed as a percentage of the maximum (?)*rpm of one of the shafts, the*N1 shaft*in this case.*

So when John starts an engine on his 767 or 757, he watches the "rpm" or N1*gauge for that particular engine, which is calibrated in percent (of maximum?) rpm.* When the starter has accelerated the N1 shaft to 25%, he flips the fuel feed switch to the engine.

Most if not all jet engines have igniters, sort of like spark plugs, that fire during the startup phase.* This gets the fuel burning, but as the combustion chamber heats up the igniters are no longer necessary so they are switched off.

The next time you are near a turbine-powered floatplane in SE Alaska (or a jet helicopter) listen to it as it starts.* You will hear a "click-click-click" coming from the engine as it begins to turn on the starter.* This is*the igniter firing. When the pilot sees the N1 gauge reach the required percent he will flip the fuel switch and you'll hear the "whooshing roar" I'm sure you're familiar with which is the fuel igniting and the engine starting to run on its own.

I'm pretty sure I've explained this right but if not perhaps John will correct me.* And sorry, Eric, for yet another post on aviation stuff.



-- Edited by Marin at 20:04, 2009-02-17
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:27 PM   #117
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

I actually mistyped. It would be N2(767 GE enbines) or N3(757 Rolls Royce engines). N1 is the slowest turning at start....has the most rotational mass.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:02 AM   #118
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

" only positive thing I see in ODE."



Look at the long times between actual boating posts, days or more at times.

ODE keeps folks amused during the dead times.


Most of the folks on this board have the ability to walk up stairs AND chew gum,

so the hate you see everywhere does not transfer from ODE to actual marine topics very often.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:46 AM   #119
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

*** Thanks Marin,

*** I am not entertained by ODE, 25% N1 or any other of FFs giberish. I get the feeling he is smothering us with unintelligble BS to gain the status of talking over our heads to make himself appear knowledgeable* .. and I'm definitely NOT entertained by that.

*** Eric Henning
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:20 AM   #120
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

" I am not entertained by ODE, 25% "

Simple self restraint , and you never need read or learn there.
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