Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-12-2009, 03:35 PM   #81
Guru
 
2bucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
RE: Boating and fuel cost

I think I hear Eric saying there is a difference between 20 years of experience and 1 years experience 20 times. I agree completely.

Ken
__________________
Advertisement

2bucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2009, 03:59 PM   #82
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Boating and fuel cost

"So help me understand this. The additives in the oil don't encapsulate and keep the contaminants in suspension?"

They don't "encapsulate"* they are held in suspension. It is a colloidal suspension so it is very stable and not easily separated when cool. Nearly all the contaminants are carbon, that's why the oil is black. They will settle after a considerable length of time if the oil is not circulated*and is kept hot, but that's not exactly a common condition on recreational boats. The stuff won't settle out of cold oil in a boating season.

If the level of contaminants exceeds the capacity of the detergent or dispersant*additives to keep them in suspension, new particles will settle out. The way to avoid that is to change the oil before that happens. That is the*reasoning behind oil changes based on*running time.*It doesn't matter if it is smoking hot or not, just so long as it is warm enough to flow.

On ships we have lube oil test cabinets and test oil for viscosity, TBN, water, and insolubles (soot) ... this gives us an idea of how well the filters and centrifuges are working and how the additive package is holding up. We still send samples to a lab because*onboard testing does not provide any information about internal wear - unless*we find*large chunks of metal. *

-- Edited by RickB at 17:01, 2009-02-12

-- Edited by RickB at 17:02, 2009-02-12
__________________

RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2009, 07:34 PM   #83
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Boating and fuel cost

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Hi Marin,

*** I hope you have time for this kind of chit-chat on the job over there in China......next time you see him and have the time ask him what's wrong with*synthetic oil.
Eric--

Between the occasional downtime on this project here, the ability to access the internet from our hotel, and the time difference across the Pacific*it's not too hard to find time to participate in the forum.

My friend does not say anything is wrong with synthetic oil.* I believe some or most of Northern Lights/Lugger's current engines use synthetic oil, or have the ability to use it.* In the conversations where oil types have come up, my friend is supportive of using synthetic oil in engines that are designed to take advantage of it.

Ten years ago,when we acquired our boat and asked him for advice regarding lube oil, he was less enthusiastic about synthetics as he felt more experience with these oils was needed before his company*jumped on board the bandwagon.* Many of their engines and generators end up in commercial vessels where very long term reliability is paramount and downtime due to having to make premature repairs is a Very Bad Thing.* So they, like many manufacturers of commercial-use engines, tend to take a fairly conservative approach to engine design and operation since the consequences of shortened service life or higher maintenance costs are pretty severe.

But in the ten years since he helped us acquire our boat, advances have been made in synthetics and there is much*more in-service evidence of their benefits, which he fully acknowledges.

What he HAS told me is that he does not feel synthetic oil should be used in old-generation engines like our Ford Lehman 120s.* The exception, in his opinion, is if the old engine has just undergone a total overhaul/rebuild during which*components, mainly seals,*that in their original composition could be susceptible to leakage or deterioration*with synthetics, have been replaced with components that are compatible with synthetics.* He says the newer synthetic oils have supposedly reduced this problem, at least to a degree, but his general recommendation is still*not to use synthetics in old-generation marine diesels.

In the case of our boat, which has its orignal engines which have never been overhauled, he recommended that we stick with the oil they have been run on since they were new, which is single-viscosity "dinosaur" oil.* His recommendation, and that of our diesel shop, too,*is Delo 400 30wt, which is readily available in the Puget Sound area.

So that's what we use.

When I get home I'll ask him specifically how he feels about synthetics today, and if he tells me anything that might be of interest to this forum I'll pass it on.

Cheers from China


-- Edited by Marin at 20:45, 2009-02-12
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 05:31 AM   #84
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
RE: Boating and fuel cost

How would that ever work on the bottom of an oil pan, especially in the corners where there is vitrually no agitation.

HEAT helps the oil to recapture the gropsh , as does time.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 06:59 AM   #85
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Boating and fuel cost

"How would that ever work on the bottom of an oil pan, especially in the corners where there is vitrually no agitation."

The oil in a running engine is very much agitated. The pump suction generates a current drawing oil toward it, the oil slung off the crank and*spraying down from under the pistons coats every surface and flows downward to the pan from all sides and corners. This flow washes every surface. There are no little pools*with no circulation.

The idea that there might be probably comes from the old days when straight mineral oils deposited layers of oxidized crud in the low spots every time the engine stopped.*That happened because there were no detergents or dispersants to keep the crud suspended, it fell out almost instantly and hardened so that circulation could not mechanically remove it and there was nothing in the oil to chemically *hold it until an oil change.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 08:53 AM   #86
Guru
 
2bucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
RE: Boating and fuel cost

That's a pretty interesting bit of physics. The oil running down the sides flushes all the way to the bottom of the pan thru the couple inches minimum, of oil that is always sitting there. And the suction of the oil pump draws oil from the bottom so fast that it keeps the oil agitated but not aeriated.

That seems totally different than how my bilge pump works. You see it draws quite a bit of volume, but never scavages the bottom or sides of the bilge. It seems that the dirt/sand a foot away never gets drawn by the pump.

Now I'm also imagining that the spray washing down the sides from the crank and from the bottom of the pistons keeps the pan clean like a swimming pool stays clean from the rain pouring down and washing the sides. The pool circulation pump, like the oil pump is drawing a suction which pulls all the debris across the floor of the pool and into the filter? Is that how it works?

Ken
2bucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 10:27 AM   #87
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Boating and fuel cost

"Is that how it works?"

If the total volume of your swimming pool is circulated every minute or so, yeah, that's how it works.

If you think the insolubes in lube oil are the same as dirt and sand* in your bilge or leaves in your swimming pool then there is little hope of your understanding the subject.

If you are just trying to start an argument you should pick another thread.

-- Edited by RickB at 11:29, 2009-02-14

-- Edited by RickB at 11:30, 2009-02-14
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 12:06 PM   #88
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,380
RE: Boating and fuel cost

This is really pretty simple. For some of you the answer to a perfect oil change is to remove your pan along with the filter each and every time you change your oil. While you're at it coat the now scoured out pan with marvel mystery oil before re-installing. For the other 99.999% of us just pump out or drain the warm oil as normal and refill with "modern" (last 45 years or more) detergent oil that is designed to emulsify or hold in supension*the normal crap and gunk.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 01:02 PM   #89
Guru
 
2bucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
RE: Boating and fuel cost

Your quote; "If the total volume of your swimming pool is circulated every minute or so, yeah, that's how it works."

Perhaps you can point me to a source that backs up your claim that the oil volume is circulated every minute. I've searched quite extensively and only find one source that gives a volume of oil pumped each minute.

This site: http://www.motorera.com/dictionary/OI.HTM says:
"Oil circulation The passing of oil throughout the engine. The engine oil circulation is maintained by a gear-type pump with an output of up to 35 liters per hour"

That seems to be a little over 1/2 liter per minute, a far cry from 3 gallons per minute.

If you're not just shooting from the hip, perhaps you can identify a source to back up your claim. Now remember we're talking about marine diesels here, not dual oil pump truck engines which use the engine oil to cool the injectors.

Ken
2bucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 04:23 PM   #90
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Boating and fuel cost

"Perhaps you can point me to a source that backs up your claim that the oil volume is circulated every minute."

Detroit Diesel Engine Division, General Motors Corporation
Form DE-MOM Three, Four, and Six-Cylinder Series 71, Two-Cycle Diesel Marine Propulsion Units

Section II Page 15 Figure 8:
Unit model 4073 Engine model 4-71 RC-48
Lubricating oil capacity: 17 qts
Lubricating oil flow at rated speed: 20 gallons per minute

Section II Page 21 Figure 11:
The 6-71 pumps 28 gpm with a sump capacity of 26 qts (depending on installation)

Satisfied?
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 06:33 PM   #91
Guru
 
2bucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
RE: Boating and fuel cost

Excellent.

Thanks for the quote and the pissy attitude. I'll try to remember that you're always right and that no one dare question your wisdom.

Ken
2bucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 07:51 PM   #92
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Boating and fuel cost

You can question my statements all you like, just don't be "pissy" and argumentative about it or*you will either get no response or*a curt and to the point response like the last one. Like I said, if*all you want is to start an argument go someplace else, this thread is interesting and people are sharing*information. We don't need your BS.*
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 09:13 PM   #93
Guru
 
Tidahapah's Avatar
 
City: Mooloolaba
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Tidahapah
Vessel Model: Bert Ellis Timber motor cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,779
RE: Boating and fuel cost

Rick B ,
I've been at sea for over 40 years deep sea ,coastal FSO's and FPSO's Superintendant Engineer and Chief Engineer for the last 25 years.
I have sailed with the Poms, Dutch and the Aussies and your attitude would last about 10 mins with any of them. You would most likely be stretchered off.

Why don't you attempt to be more understanding and thoughtfull with the way you spread your knowledge, being an arogant smart arse gets you no where.

This is a great forum and a lot of knowledge and bull**** is spread around and everyone is smart enough to sort one from another and enjoy doing it.
Benn
Tidahapah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 09:47 PM   #94
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Boating and fuel cost

This is only a single example from a specific engine so I can't say it's representative of what happens in all engines. But in the early '80s I had occasion to remove the oil pan from the engine in my Land Rover for the first time since buying the vehicle new in 1973. At the time it had about 100,000 miles on it.

The Rover 2.25 litre, four-cylinder*engine is very similar in design philosophy to most of the engines (Perkins, Ford of England, etc.) from the '50s and '60s, having been designed originally by Rover in the late 1950s*as a diesel. Not wanting to run two engine manufacturing lines, Rover later made the necessary alterations to build the same engine as a petrol engine so the same assembly line could produce both diesel and petrol engines for the Land Rover. Mine is petrol.

The sump capacity is eight quarts. It has a typical gear-type oil pump. I have no idea what the pumping capacity of this pump is. Since new, I have always used Castrol GTX 20-50 oil in the engine, and change it and the filter every 3,000 miles.

When I drained the oil and removed the pan it was clean as a whistle inside with the exception of the little depression immediately behind the drain plug, which had some residue in it. But there was no sludge buildup in the corners or in the lowest part of the pan.

Perhaps this would have been different if I had the diesel version of the same engine as I understand that the lube oil in a diesel is contaminated more by the byproducts of combustion than the lube oil in a petrol engine. But I had expected to find some sluge, varnish, or buildup on the bottom of the sump pan and I was quite surprised not to find any after some ten years.

-- Edited by Marin at 22:52, 2009-02-14
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 10:03 PM   #95
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Boating and fuel cost

Benn, I share your background and I appreciate your comments but if you have been following this thread you will know that this was an informative and polite*discussion until it was assaulted by the chap who is now crying foul, as he has done in the past.

And based on my own experience with merchant mariners, it wouldn't be me who found himself hauled off the boat. We don't give much slack to those who stick their nose in for no other reason than to start an argument.

I am very happy to be polite and share information about subjects in which I have some knowledge but have*zero patience with fools like the one who interjected his argumentative BS in this one. Perhaps your comments should be directed to the provocateur.

-- Edited by RickB at 23:27, 2009-02-14
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2009, 10:20 PM   #96
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Boating and fuel cost

Marin,

There is a design "rule of thumb" for diesel engines with oil cooled pistons*to determine the capacity of the lube oil pump. It is (and this is from memory so don't join the pack of jackals if*I am off a bit) based on a constant of .0035 X the diplacement x rpm X 2. If you run that rule for the 6-71 it works out to be around 25 gallons per minute which isn't too far off the factory spec of 28 gpm.

In any event, there is enough circulation and turbulence in the oil pan to keep things stirred up pretty well. Modern oils do a fantastic job of keeping things clean internally as long as oil is filtered and changed regularly.

I second Sunchaser's statement that for 99.999 percent of us a regular draining of warm oil is adequate.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2009, 03:08 AM   #97
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Boating and fuel cost

What does "oil cooled pistons" mean? Is this why diesels like the FL120, and the engine in my Land Rover (originally desiged as a diesel) have such high lube oil sump capacities?
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2009, 05:40 AM   #98
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,537
RE: Boating and fuel cost

It means that the crank and rods have a port that aligns for a short time allowing a squirt of oil to sprat the underside of the piston crown.

OR a dedicated port that squirts lube oil full time at the piston bottom.

This helps lower the piston temp , transferring some heat to the oil , where it is cooled.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2009, 11:17 AM   #99
Guru
 
2bucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
RE: Boating and fuel cost

RckB wrote: "Benn, I share your background and I appreciate your comments but if you have been following this thread you will know that this was an informative and polite discussion until it was assaulted by the chap who is now crying foul, as he has done in the past.

And based on my own experience with merchant mariners, it wouldn't be me who found himself hauled off the boat. We don't give much slack to those who stick their nose in for no other reason than to start an argument."


So who stuck whose nose where? The thread started on Nov 17, I posted the third comment. You were nowhere to be heard. The thread stopped on Dec 3 with no posts from RickB in the entire thread. I restarted the thread 4 days ago. YOU STUCK YOUR NOSE IN to tell us all how it worked. What the hell, you accuse me of sticking my nose in? What're you, daft?

Where would the argument be if you hadn't stuck your nose in, I wouldn't have anyone to argue with would I? If you don't like my style stay out of the threads that I was in first.

Ken
2bucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2009, 01:47 PM   #100
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,724
RE: Boating and fuel cost

*** For many years I have changed oil in boats and cars only changing the filter every 3rd time. I reason that the large volume of a typical full flow oil filter could'nt possibly come close to plugging in that period of time, keeping in mind that I change more often than usual. When I do the two changes that leave the filter unchanged I'm always suprised to see the oil looks totally like new oil to me. I would think that the old black oil in the filter would make it's presence visible. I would like very much to hear FFs and Ricks comments but hopefully from numerous others as well. An unfortunate problem occurs when several individuals offer posts loaded with facts ( or appearent facts ), much skill in articulating ideas and/or very interesting or plausable opnions, so much so that almost all the rest of us feel** ..* "how could I follow that act" or "he knows so much*that I couldn't possibly have anything to add" or " If I post I'll just advertise to everyone*how stupid I am". I think it's a shame that we can't find a way to involve a much higher percentage of us in the conversations.* I remember when I asked about showering soap I was amazed with about a dozen quick responses. I tend to think it's the high tech stuff that kills participation.*When I first joined this site I commented to someone " It's wonderful"* ..* "they go on a weekend outings and post pictures for all of* us, all over the nation and beyond to enjoy and see what boating in far off places is like"* ... for some reason that seem to have faded away.

*** Eric Henning
__________________

Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cost of slip rental in seattle? Woodsong Marinas, Anchorage, Harbors, Slips and Storage 15 07-28-2011 10:03 AM
Cost of Cruising netboater Voyagers and other Boaters on the Go! 11 05-19-2010 04:46 AM
Electronic Installation Cost Russf Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 3 11-03-2009 08:26 PM
Cost of diesel... Baker General Discussion 6 03-17-2008 08:11 AM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012