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Old 11-23-2007, 02:19 PM   #21
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Boating and fuel cost

This business of having to work a diesel hard is something of a myth. The harder you work any machine the faster it's going to wear out. This is just as true of diesels as it is of can openers. What's critical with a diesel is that it be operated within the correct temperature range to ensure complete combustion in the cylinders. If you achieve that, glazing, carboning up, etc. don't happen. If you have a diesel (like a FL120) with a maximum rpm of 2500 rpm that runs at its proper temperature under load at 1600 rpm then you can run it at 1600 rpm pretty much forever and it will be a happy engine and will most likely have considerably more time between overhauls than if it was run at 2000 rpm or more which is the rpm range closer to the 75/75 rule.

A turbocharged engine is a little different in that the turbo imposes some operational requirements that NA engines don't have. But for an NA diesel, running it at the correct cylinder temperature is much more important than the percentage of max rpm or fuel flow.

The "run it hard, it's good for the engine" notion is very, very popular. But in almost forty years of being around airplane and marine engines, I've never heard a mechanic who tears down and rebuilds engines for a living agree with that assessment. There are times that an engine has to be run hard, of course, and they're not saying not to. But the notion of having to run them "hard" all the time because it's good for them is simply not true.
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Old 11-23-2007, 05:02 PM   #22
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

I asked Dave at Klassen Engines if the run'em hard is the answer. He told me of a customer that had one of thier generators and asked if he could run it on light load for some period of time. They said no, they did anyway and the engine soon had to be rebuilt. In an article in Passage Maker Magazine about Northern Lights They said they tell thier customers to " run'em as if you hate'em ". I don't see how Steve D'Antonino can make such a statement, applying a rule to all engines with the same numbers but he does and he has over a period of time. I do belive the way to rate engine load by percentage of fuel burned is the aboloute truth. If you run your Leyman 120 at 1600 rpm you may have it properly loaded but if you do your'e seriously over proped. Your boat runs too fast in boat harbors and if you run over 1600 your'e seriously overloaded , a situation that would indicate the need for a 60 to 70hp engine.But on youre side of the argument if Steve D'Antonio is correct there would be thousands and thousands of hard starting poor running Ford Lehmans out there that smoked like a freshly lit campfire and can't make full power. Norm Dibble who works at Pat's Marine Engines in Seattle would be a good man to ask about this as he has extensive experience with Ford Leyman engines.

Eric Henning
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Old 11-23-2007, 05:52 PM   #23
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Boating and fuel cost

We run 1600-1700 (the tachs aren't all that accurate) which gives us a little over 8 knots. The engines are in their proper temperature range at this rpm. According to the marks on the engine instruments and EGT from previous owners, this is the way this boat has been run for a long, long time. It makes the proper WOT rpm, and the engines don't smoke (except a bit on startup which is normal for Lehman 120s). They start on the first turn of the starter. At idle rpm (aobut 600) the boat does a bit over 3 knots. The engines are now 34 years old.

I've heard the Northern Lights comment about "run them as if you hate them," and in fact one of the fellows that often uses that remark down there is a good friend of mine. Interestingly enough, he does not seem to apply this philosophy to any of his OWN engines, including the engines in his airplanes....

The Washington State Ferry system had some Ford Lehman 120s on some of their boats a number of years ago. Not as propulsion engines, of course, but I assume running generators or hydraulic pumps or whatever. I was told they were run about 1800 rpm or so. They went 25,000 hours before needing an overhaul.

Running a generator on light load probably does not allow the generator to get up to its proper operating temperature. So I'm not surprised the generator in your example had to be rebuilt.

With a diesel, it's all about temperature and proper combustion. The amount of load is irrelvant as long as the engine is running at proper temperature. Obviously they are designed to achieve their proper temperature under a particular load and speed. Below that and they don't get up to temperature and bad things will happen over time.

Another factor is the kind of engine in your boat. If you have a new generation diesel that's designed to run at relatively high-rpms and in fact has to in order to achieve the proper temperature, power, emissions, etc. specfiications, then that's the way that engine should be run. But an FL120 is an engine that was designed in the 1950s with 1950s metallurgy and technology. The maximum rpm for this engine is only 2500 rpm. It was designed for the way engines were run back then (in England) which was very conservatively.

Even so, the engine proved to be a failure in the trucks it was originally designed for because under higher rpms and loads, it simply didn't hold up. Where it proved very successful was in relatively low-power, constant-rpm applications like cranes, generators, pumps, and tractors. Which is why it proved to be an ideal engine for trawler-type boats. People who cruise their FL120s at 1600-1800 rpm at its proper operating temperature in their boats are running them the way the engine was designed to be run. Cruising them faster and harder will simply hasten the day when they'll need an overhaul. The same would hold true of other makes of engines from that period-- Perkins, etc.

I've asked a lot of mechanics--- automotive, aviation, and marine--- about this "run it hard" notion, and other than during an initial break-in period, the answers were always the same. If you need the power, run the engine to get it. But if you don't need the power, run the engine in its proper temperature range but make life as easy as possible for it. The harder you run them, the faster they wear out. The temperatures are higher, the pressures are higher, the stresses are higher, the vibration is higher, everything is higher the harder you run them (I'm talking aobut a reciprocating engine here, not a turbine which is a whole different deal).

The best, most exprienced mechanic (and pilot) I have ever known once told me when I was writing a book about him that a piston is only going to go up and down so many times. The better you make life for the engine, the more times that piston is going to go up and down. He didn't mean to baby an engine--- that can be bad for it too. But he also didn't mean to "run it hard" unless you absolutely had to and then no longer than you needed the power.

People like Steve D'Antonio spend most of their time with new or fairly modern engines. Many or most of these engines are turbocharged, which bring additional operational considerations, and they are probably higher speed, lighter weight designs using the latest in metallurgy and technology. They are a far cry from the old thumpers like Lehmans and the like. I also hear and read that the newer, lightweight, high-speed diesels don't have the service life of the older engines. The trade-off is they are lighter, more powerful, more economical, cleaner-burning, etc. But the fact that their TBOs may be considerably lower than the old low-tech engines is in itself an indication that the harder you run an engine the faster it will wear out.

Besides, you've got to figure the engine manfuacturers are going to encourage hard running. The last thing they need is a bunch of engines out there that last forever, right?

If you believe running a diesel hard is good for it, the good news is that unless you've bought an older boat with high-time engines the chances are remote that you'll be the one to have to deal with the potential of premature wear. So for most of us, the argument will remain more theoretical than actual.

-- Edited by Marin at 20:46, 2007-11-23
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Old 11-23-2007, 11:24 PM   #24
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Marin

How many gph do you burn at 1700 rpm ?

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Old 11-24-2007, 12:53 AM   #25
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Boating and fuel cost

We haven't measured it accurately ourselves, but the previous owner who ran the boat the same way (1600 rpm cruise) said he did and he calculated about 6 gph (total, both engines).

This would tally with the rule-of-thumb fuel-use formula my friend at Northern Lights/Lugger told me which is 1 gallon per hour per 20 horsepower. With the Lehman 120, 1600 rpm is approximately 60 horsepower. 60 divided by 20 is 3 gallons per hour per engine. This seems to jibe with what we see on the fuel gauge of the day tank, which is what both engines feed from.
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Old 11-24-2007, 09:00 PM   #26
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Sloboat,

Thank you very much for the information. I'd like to expand my horizons a bit on the web. I only do Trawler Fourm and Willard Boat Owners on Yahoo Groups. I barley know how to send this message and its slow going since i've ignored the web for so long. I'm OK with the fuel burn of my own boat but I'm still interested in this sort of thing.

Marin,

I had a boat with a 120hp Sabre...almost exactly the same as your LE 120s and the book on that engine specified a tad less than 6 gph at WOT. That puts you at 50% load. I'm going to guess that puts you in the OK zone as I know many LE 120 powered boats operating at 1.5 to 2gph. I like the 20hp per 1gph rule....it seems to work everywhere.

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Old 11-26-2007, 04:05 PM   #27
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Boating and fuel cost

I am a neophyte (former sailor for 60 years) with a "semi-displacement trawler" which has a 200 HP Volvo turbo-diesel: very efficient at 7.5 knots (around 2000 RPM) and far less efficient at 12 knots (3400 RPM). After a lot of research, I think I have determined that there is a real question of what we're talking about when we say we are bringing the engine up to "proper temperature." The fact that the fesh water cooling system is operating at 180 degrees f and indicates such on the gauge (most engines will warm up enough to open the thermostat at a high idle), does not mean that the INTERNAL parts of the engine are hot enough to run efficiently. Since we are definitely on a "7 knot budget", we compromise by opening her up for 15 minutes or so every day when possible. If we're right, we hope the engine will last longer than WE do!
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:43 PM   #28
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Boating and fuel cost

To me, proper temperature in a marine diesel is a combination of at least two factors. In the case of our boat, it's the coolant temperature and the exhaust gas temperature. On our boat, the coolant temperature of each engine will not come up to the lower end of the proper temperature range until we're running at least 1200 rpm under load.

We don't get into the desired exaust gas temperature range until we're at a cruise power setting of about 1600 rpm. Obviously the harder the engine works the higher the EGT will be. But it's possible to find out what the correct EGT temperature range should be for the engine and then operate it inside that range.

In the plane I fly, I'm used to using EGT, cylinder head temperature, and oil temperature gauges to judge the temperature of the engine. It would be nice to have a CHT sensor on the diesels in our boat but the Ford Lehman 120 isn't set up for them. So the EGT is the next-best thing.

Most engine manufacturers select a thermostat that will keep the engine in it's proper operating range (once the temperature gets high enough to open the thermostat). So if the proper temperature in the combustion chamber for complete and efficient fuel burn is "x," and when "x" is achieved the coolant temperature is 180 degrees, then the coolant temp gauge becomes a pretty accurate way of knowing when the engine's combustion chambers are at "x". The only way I can see that you'd get a different coolant reading when the combustion temperatures were at "x" degrees is if the thermostat, temp sensor, or gauge was malfunctioning.

But it's much better, I think, to have at least two ways of reading engine temperatures, which is why it's handy to have both coolant temperature and exhaust gas temperature readouts.

An oil temperature readout would also be very handy, and would probably be much easier to add onto and engine like a Lehman than a CHT. Oil temperature is like coolant temperature but without the potential variable of a thermostat. But I believe a coolant temperature readout will react faster than a lube oil temperature readout to a cooling problem, which is probably why the manufacturers of liquid cooled engines use them.
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:04 PM   #29
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Hello Allan and Judy,

Very impressive bow wave made by a very nice boat.
It seems the question most of us are gropping for is how hard do we need to run. Steve DeAntonio from PMM says 75% load 75% of the time. It's hard to live with. Especially those of that actually like to go slow. It's only a matter of time untill we need to buck big seas and strong winds. How would a boat fare under such conditions if it needed 75% of it"s power just to cruise at a normal proper speed. There is a boat in Anacortes WA that was purchased in Scotland and came around the Horn on it's own hull to Anacortes. It was about 75', very heavy and powered by an 8 cyl Gardner diesel. It had only 2.6 hp per ton. I learned this in an article in PMM all about the trip home
and more. Nowhere in the story was there any indication there was any lack of power or inability to make nessessary headway. So the question of how mutch power we need and how hard we need to work our engines is closely related. I think the truth is a little closser to what most of us are doing but i'd like to hear some facts by engineering type people. Northern Lights says " runem as though you hate'um " . Dosen't sound like real good objective stuff to me.

Eric Henning
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:48 PM   #30
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Eric,
Was that the Radiant Star?
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Old 11-27-2007, 03:43 PM   #31
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Boating and fuel cost

I'm a little suspicious of the 75/75 "requirement" myself. I understand the need to avoid excessive idling and unloaded operation (like running an engine 2-3 hours to charge batteries), but haven't seen any hard evidence of long term 40-50% power shortening engine life.

Go to the John Deere marine engine web site, for example, and note that they show the identical engine with three different power outputs depending on the duty - and the engine with the lowest power rating has the longest life. For example, the 6068TFM is rated at 225 HP for "up to 800 hrs/year", but 154 HP for "over 3000 hrs/year".

Nowhere do I see any "minimum load" requirement.

Like Marin, I have an aviation side. Same discussions there - "run them at 75% or harder all the time - they love it." But those folks seemed to keep complaining about how they were always replacing cylinders once or twice between major overhauls.

Perhaps Northen Lights means "You ***can*** run them as though you hate 'em" - not "You ***must***".
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:44 PM   #32
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Steve,
Indeed it was. I wonder how many of us read PMM ? Last year I went nuts buying and reading back issues. I even made lists of all the articles, categorizing all the subjects filling my head with all kinds of stuff. Couldn't get enough. This year read them all but don't find them a priority at all. There was another large yacht ( old and wood ) on the west coast, also powered by a Gardner that only had 2 hp per ton. I'm supprised Krogens run around 7 hp per ton. I saw Radiant Star for sale last fall for 825K. I could buy my favorite boat ( Nordhavn 46 ) and some real nice real estate here in SE Alaska for that.

Eric Henning
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:39 PM   #33
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Hi Marin,
Yeah, I wish we had CHTs on our boats too. I flew ultralights for years and I remember my eyes were glued to the CHT on climb out. Some engines ran 425 degrees all day long and others would sesize up every time we got to 401 degrees. Engine coolant tempeture on a diesel boat is a very bad thing to use to gauge engine load or when when an engine is ready for heavy loading. Most boats will indicate over 95% heat soaked at a 25% load. The coolant is forced to get hot fast by keeping the coolant mostly out of the heat exchanger at low loads. At 25% load the pistons, rings and valves are very cool ( relatively speaking ). Lube oil temp is a better gauge but boat engines vary too much in design to through numbers out to the general public. On some boats the lube oil cooler gets the sea water first. Here in Alaska that thats almost freezing much of the time and if this oil cooler was extra large and the engine also had a large capacity oil pan the oil would stay quite cool even at heavy loads... and the opposite is also true. The 75/75 rule won't be really effective unless we can define exactly what 75% load is. I think the fuel burn method is good but how many boaters know thier burn rate at WOT? There is a lot of guys out there that don't even know thier WOT rpm. Ther'e not even proped right much less loaded right.

Eric Henning
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:53 PM   #34
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

I don't subscribe to PMM but Carey has given me his back issues to read. I have found some of the articles on VHF radio, navigation, etc. interesting and educational. The problem I have with the magazine (and this DOES tie into the topic of this thread) is that it is aimed almost exclusively at the top of the boating food chain. Big boats, expensive gear, etc. Folks who don't have to paw through their wallet to see if they can afford the fuel for next weekend's cruise, or who have to make do with their back-straining manual dinghy lift system because the price of a new Seawise Davit isn't in the cards right now. It's aimed at folks who can ask the question, "should I get the Fleming or the Nordhavn?" and then when they've made up their minds actually go out and buy one of them.

Now I'm well aware that magazine subscriptions don't begin to cover the cost of publishing a magazine, advertising does. And other than boat brokers, there are no companies out there pushing 30 year old boats and motors. And advertisers aren't going to cough up advertising rates unless they're confident that potential customers for their stuff are going to be reading the magazine. So it's a vicious circle-- the magazine needs to attract the kind of people who are inclined to buy the stuff their advertisers are selling, and their advertisers are selling new and expensive stuff. So gradually the anchoring technique articles get pushed aside in favor of a review of an Aleutian 70.

Some people--- maybe a lot of people--- like reading reviews about boats or equipment they can never afford to obtain. But I think a lot of people would like to read about stuff that relates to them. I'm not interested in the latest 900 kabillion horsepower, V-12*engine from MAN, but I would be interested in reading about some long-time boater's experience with the Lehman 120 in his boat and what he found to be helpful in prolonging its life. But that sort of subject matter won't attract advertisers (except maybe American Diesel) so it won't pay for the magazine.

The boats and engines Steve D'Antonio writes about have zero relevance to the boating world my wife and I live in-- a 34-year old "beater" GB with a pair of low-tech, low-rpm, low-power thumpers that have been out of production for almost three decades. So the engine management rules and suggestions that Steve preaches have little or no meaning for boaters like me.

I'm not so interested in hearing that I should be running my engine at 75/75.* What I do want to hear about is how can I minimize my fuel burn while ensuring a long life for my*1950s-technology*diesels.* I know there are ways to do this.* I know what they are for an even older-technology*Pratt & Whitney R-985 Wasp Jr., but we don't have those engines in our boat so the knowledge does me little good on the water

I think this is why forums for specific brands like GB, Hatteras, etc. are so popular and well-used. They take the place of that impossible-to-publish magazine that's aimed at the old-boat boater. Ideally, this forum will serve the same role.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:39 PM   #35
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Boating and fuel cost

Marin makes a good point. The particular boat that I won right now caused me some problem come oil change time. It has a fancy schmancy Oile X-changer system and I was really excited to use it the first time. So I got down to my boat and fired up the engine to warm up the oil. I ran it in gear for about 30 minutes with the coolant temp reading in excess of 160 degrees....perfect. Well I went to the X-changer pump and it started cavitating right away. I thought something was wrong. On further inspection, I pulled the dipstick out and it was not even warm. It was room temperature at best. So I said....alright....I fired it up and ran it out to Redfish and back(about 45 minutes under full load). I run 2900RPMs on a 3100RPM engine(3300 for 5 minutes). I get back and while it will pump the oil, it is STILL not hot to the touch.....it is warm but not hot at all. Anyway, that is where I am at now. I dunno if the oil cooler is too big or what. I take great caution in powering up now. I do it in stages if the engine is just getting warmed up. Makes ya wonder.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:44 PM   #36
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

I dropped my subscription to PMM years ago. When they started building a picnic boat (probably to get a tax write-off for Palatore's new local toy) I decided they had totally lost their focus.

JB, there's something wrong for sure with your engine, running that cold. Did you do that recently when the bay water was cold? My first thought is that the thermostat is either missing or malfunctioning.
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:02 PM   #37
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Boating and fuel cost

Interesting question as to whether there's anything to regulate the oil temperature. On an aircraft engine, there is a valve called a "Vern-a-therm" that only forces oil through the cooler when it hits 180 degrees or so. But in looking at the pictures of my T6.354's, the oil goes through the filter and raw water cooler with no obvious way for it not to do so.

So I think you can end up with cool oil even with the coolant temperature nice and toasty at the thermostat opening temperature.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:32 PM   #38
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RE: Boating and fuel cost

Something is not right if your oil does not get hot. If my engine gets between 150 and 160 when warming up to change oil, it will burn my fingers right now. Even after all the oil is pumped out, and I go to remove the filter, it's too hot to handle without gloves.
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Old 11-28-2007, 07:45 AM   #39
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I'll check it again next time I have it out.....
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:46 AM   #40
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Boating and fuel cost

When we change oil in our Lehman 120s we run the engines in gear (one at a time) for about 20 minutes. The way I tell if the oil is hot enough to pump out easily but not too hot to handle is the temperature by feel of the oil filter. When it's "hot," but not too hot to hold my hand on, I know that the lube oil will flow easily.* But 15-20 minutes at about 1000 rpm in gear is all it takes to get the oil plenty warm.

-- Edited by Marin at 11:48, 2007-11-28
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