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Old 09-24-2015, 01:42 PM   #1
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I have owned several boats and always insured them with Boat US. Never really shopped the competition.

I recently bought a 80 model Mainship ll, I requested and received a quote, sent in my premium along with a few pictures as requested, then went back to work on finishing my updating of the interior. (Thinking I was insured)

2 weeks go by and I get a call from Boat US underwriters who inform me I must have a certified survey performed before they will insure the boat.

While that is not such a bad idea after my updating is complete, I found it very upsetting that such a demand was made. I got a pretty fair deal deal in buying the boat, had it inspected, and only asked to insure it for what I had invested.

Not ready to pay for a survey right now, I have better things and places to spend my money.

After some heated discussion, they agreed to return my money.

I called another respected company, and was quoted the same policy, no survey, only pictures of the interior, exterior, engine bay and helm were requested to get the coverage as requested.

The rate given to me for this policy was virtually HALF that as quoted by Boat US!

My boat is now insured for the amount I have invested. I was told that if I chose to increase my coverage at a later date, a survey would be required. (which makes complete sense to me)

My respect for Boat US has diminished considerably!
T
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Old 09-24-2015, 02:14 PM   #2
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My boat is now insured for the amount I have invested. I was told that if I chose to increase my coverage at a later date, a survey would be required. (which makes complete sense to me)
All I can say is be sure you look very carefully at your policy and what is and isn't insured. There is no standard in boat policies and it's very easy to sell it at half price if you have a long list of things not covered, such as incidental damage, named storms, anything resulting from mechanical problems, environmental and cleanup limits or non coverage, the level of liability coverage. Unless or until you've very carefully reviewed it all or had someone experienced with boat insurance do so, you really don't know what you have.

Just as I'd never advise buying without a survey, I'd never insure without one if I was an insurance company. But then if I had enough clauses in there regarding pre-existing conditions, boat serviceability for the task, enough escapes for myself, I'd probably be willing.

When Bertram had issues with delamination and other structural issues, there were a lot of owners who had boats basically fall apart on them in rough water and then found out their insurer would not cover it because it was a manufacturing defect.
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Old 09-24-2015, 02:58 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Tim Hendrickson View Post
I have owned several boats and always insured them with Boat US. Never really shopped the competition.

I recently bought a 80 model Mainship ll, I requested and received a quote, sent in my premium along with a few pictures as requested, then went back to work on finishing my updating of the interior. (Thinking I was insured)

2 weeks go by and I get a call from Boat US underwriters who inform me I must have a certified survey performed before they will insure the boat.

While that is not such a bad idea after my updating is complete, I found it very upsetting that such a demand was made. I got a pretty fair deal deal in buying the boat, had it inspected, and only asked to insure it for what I had invested.

Not ready to pay for a survey right now, I have better things and places to spend my money.

After some heated discussion, they agreed to return my money.

I called another respected company, and was quoted the same policy, no survey, only pictures of the interior, exterior, engine bay and helm were requested to get the coverage as requested.

The rate given to me for this policy was virtually HALF that as quoted by Boat US!

My boat is now insured for the amount I have invested. I was told that if I chose to increase my coverage at a later date, a survey would be required. (which makes complete sense to me)

My respect for Boat US has diminished considerably!
T

This scares me- and here's why.

Your insuring company didn't sell you a policy- they sold you a price.

has no idea as the the material condition of your vessel, and

As a marine insurance broker that represents over 30 companies in all aspects of marine insurance, I cannot name a single company that will offer you a decent policy (agreed value terms, CSL liability, pollution and Jones Act coverage, etc) with the terms you describe- especially on a 25-30 year old boat. All would require an out of the water survey as part of the binding requirements. Boat Us's survey requirement was not out of line.

Marine insurance is Caveat Emptor without a doubt- you get that you pay for. Your policy documents will spell out in legal detail what is and what is not covered. Too often, boaters eagerly jump on the lowest premium possible, and then (sadly) find out they have no coverage because the policy language is extremely restrictive.

I'd be happy to review your policy and give you an assessment of your coverage- though, I'm pretty sure I know the coverages you currently have.
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Old 09-24-2015, 03:12 PM   #4
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This scares me- and here's why.

Your insuring company didn't sell you a policy- they sold you a price.

has no idea as the the material condition of your vessel, and

As a marine insurance broker that represents over 30 companies in all aspects of marine insurance, I cannot name a single company that will offer you a decent policy (agreed value terms, CSL liability, pollution and Jones Act coverage, etc) with the terms you describe- especially on a 25-30 year old boat. All would require an out of the water survey as part of the binding requirements. Boat Us's survey requirement was not out of line.

Marine insurance is Caveat Emptor without a doubt- you get that you pay for. Your policy documents will spell out in legal detail what is and what is not covered. Too often, boaters eagerly jump on the lowest premium possible, and then (sadly) find out they have no coverage because the policy language is extremely restrictive.

I'd be happy to review your policy and give you an assessment of your coverage- though, I'm pretty sure I know the coverages you currently have.
Let's see the risk. Old boat, sinks at sea, fuel leaks. Pay cost of boat plus the salvage and the environmental cleanup so perhaps the insured amount of the boat plus $100,000. Well, except...the policy I wrote for you doesn't cover any of those things. It sank secondary to a mechanical issue not insured and besides that we don't cover salvage and environmental cleanup anyway. We will however return your unused premium.

Or it gets destroyed in a hurricane but wasn't covered. Or freeze damage, not covered.

I was hoping you'd see the thread. Every time I see this I worry for the insured. Odds that he has the same coverage for half the price without a survey...100 to 1 against.

Please, people, don't buy insurance without reviewing the policy in detail. Better yet, also use a broker who will do that for you. So now two people reviewing it.
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Old 09-24-2015, 03:27 PM   #5
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...don't buy insurance without reviewing the policy in detail. Better yet, also use a broker who will do that for you. So now two people reviewing it.
Truer words were never spoken!
This is a case where what you don't know CAN harm you.
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Old 09-24-2015, 05:44 PM   #6
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Truer words were never spoken!
This is a case where what you don't know CAN harm you.
Off Duty- I LOVE the Ben Carson line!!
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Old 09-24-2015, 05:48 PM   #7
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Off Duty- I LOVE the Ben Carson line!!
Thanks.
Me too
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Old 09-24-2015, 06:04 PM   #8
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Boat US Insurance

Oil spill liability. And if no survey was done I can just about guarantee you have only damage to others and a small medical rider.

No legitimate insurance company will insure hull and machinery without a certified survey.

They may take your money. But what they cover will be vastly different.

Regarding price: This spring I checked with SeaTow for a quote. They were 50% higher had 50% of the oil spill liability and 50% of the salvage limits.
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Old 09-24-2015, 08:13 PM   #9
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....
I called another respected company, and was quoted the same policy, no survey, only pictures of the interior, exterior, engine bay and helm were requested to get the coverage as requested. ....
I`m reading the words above, especially "respected company" and "same policy", and much criticism of the policy the OP took out.
So, is it the "same policy" or not? If it is, how can it be open to criticism?
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Old 09-24-2015, 09:11 PM   #10
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I`m reading the words above, especially "respected company" and "same policy", and much criticism of the policy the OP took out.
So, is it the "same policy" or not? If it is, how can it be open to criticism?
We doubt it is the same and if he just got a price quote and hasn't read the entire policy, he'd have no way of knowing it's the same policy. There is no such thing as a standard policy or coverage. They all have their own little differences. Even among the very good policies, they're not likely to be exactly the same. Also, if someone is quoting and trying to sell based on price, they're not likely quoting a price that adds riders or removes exclusions.

Unfortunately, this is a very common occurrence. Even with the policy in hand you have to be knowledgeable and experienced sometimes to catch the differences.

He can correct us if we're wrong, but I suspect by "same" he means for the same boat value and same deductibles. Neither Peter nor I have any reason to defend Boat US's underwriters, but we do have many reasons to be concerned that the OP got a very good policy on the boat in question without a survey. Obviously we haven't seen his policy, but we've both seen this type situation and Peter sees it daily in his business.

Insurers write policies every day designed to minimize what they ever might have to potentially pay. If someone writes without a survey, it may very well have a "seaworthiness" clause of some sort, which basically puts that burden completely on the owner and excludes them from paying for anything resulting from it's lack of seaworthiness.

I don't know how policies are in Australia. In the US, auto policies are generally highly regulated to include many of the same basics. Homeowner's policies are somewhat regulated by most states but not to the length auto policies are. Get to commercial buildings or businesses and no two policies look the same. Boat policies are like a free-for-all.

Now pricing isn't regulated either so it's possible the half price policy is better than the Boat US policy. It happens. However, the boat in question and lack of survey make that appear unlikely.

Also, "respected company" doesn't necessarily mean their boat policies are good, or at least that their basic policy is. I respect my auto insurer, but I'd never insure my boat through them.
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Old 09-25-2015, 09:36 AM   #11
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Let me clear things up a bit:
1) The boat rests in a 40' covered slip on Kentucky Lake (TN River)
We don't seem to get many "named storms" up here, although I have heard a few thunderstorms referred to by some interesting names.

2) It will spend well over 90% of its cruising on inland lakes and waterways.

3) In my humble opinion, Insurance is a necessary evil, one that you pay for and hope is never used. As a retired old fart living on a fixed income, cost is a significant issue. I unfortunately have 3 ex-wives that assured me I will never live the life of luxury I once dreamed of.

4) While the 34 MS ll would have a new replacement cost of well over 6 figures, my little 80 model is worth (and insured) insured for nowhere near that amount.

"Just doing the best I can with what I got!"
T
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:10 AM   #12
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Let me clear things up a bit:
1) The boat rests in a 40' covered slip on Kentucky Lake (TN River)
We don't seem to get many "named storms" up here, although I have heard a few thunderstorms referred to by some interesting names.

2) It will spend well over 90% of its cruising on inland lakes and waterways.

3) In my humble opinion, Insurance is a necessary evil, one that you pay for and hope is never used. As a retired old fart living on a fixed income, cost is a significant issue. I unfortunately have 3 ex-wives that assured me I will never live the life of luxury I once dreamed of.

4) While the 34 MS ll would have a new replacement cost of well over 6 figures, my little 80 model is worth (and insured) insured for nowhere near that amount.

"Just doing the best I can with what I got!"
T
That does clear some things up. Do you know what your salvage and environmental coverage levels are? What level of liability coverage you have? Just because your boat isn't six figures doesn't mean you can't cause six figures in damage. What about the other 10% of the time, any limitations on coverage, any assumptions of seaworthiness? Any exclusions for existing but undiscovered or undisclosed issues? We don't fault you for wanting to save money, but if you don't know all the details of how you saved then it could backfire at some point.

If you've reviewed the complete policy in detail and are satisfied, then that's fine. If all you've reviewed is the price and the amount of they property coverage then that's worrisome.
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:50 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tim Hendrickson View Post
Let me clear things up a bit:
1) The boat rests in a 40' covered slip on Kentucky Lake (TN River)
We don't seem to get many "named storms" up here, although I have heard a few thunderstorms referred to by some interesting names.

2) It will spend well over 90% of its cruising on inland lakes and waterways.

3) In my humble opinion, Insurance is a necessary evil, one that you pay for and hope is never used. As a retired old fart living on a fixed income, cost is a significant issue. I unfortunately have 3 ex-wives that assured me I will never live the life of luxury I once dreamed of.

4) While the 34 MS ll would have a new replacement cost of well over 6 figures, my little 80 model is worth (and insured) insured for nowhere near that amount.

"Just doing the best I can with what I got!"
T
Good morning, Tim,

Appreciate the info. If I may ask, who is the insuring company?

Let me paint a picture, and I'd like to know how your policy will act:

You're at home, when you get a call- Your boat caught fire and burned to the waterline. The heat also damaged the dock and surrounding boats (estimated damage $250k), and there's also a fuel/engine oil/trans oil slick on the water.

Finally, the marina manager is hounding you to remove the vessel.

4 points:
  • Total loss of your vessel
  • Damage to others
  • Fuel/pollution liability
  • Wreck removal

By no means is this an unrealistic scenario- it has and will continue to happen. How will your policy act on your behalf?
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Old 09-25-2015, 01:04 PM   #14
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4 points:
  • Total loss of your vessel
  • Damage to others
  • Fuel/pollution liability
  • Wreck removal
In your experience, what percentage of boat policies would you estimate to be adequate in all four of those areas shown above? My estimate is 20% of lake boats and 40% of coastal and not topping 50% until you reach larger sized boats, perhaps 80' and up.
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Old 09-25-2015, 01:51 PM   #15
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  • Total loss of your vessel
  • Damage to others
  • Fuel/pollution liability
  • Wreck removal

By no means is this an unrealistic scenario- it has and will continue to happen. How will your policy act on your behalf?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
In your experience, what percentage of boat policies would you estimate to be adequate in all four of those areas shown above? My estimate is 20% of lake boats and 40% of coastal and not topping 50% until you reach larger sized boats, perhaps 80' and up.
A very good question- and one that I don't have an easy answer for. Using a broad brush, I would estimate that:
  • vessels over 100'- near 100%
  • vessels 10 years of age and newer, and over 50'- 80+%
  • vessels 10 years of age and newer, from 30' to 50'- 70-80%
  • vessels 10 years of age and newer, 25' to 30'- 60%
  • vessels 10 years of age and newer, and under 24'- 30-40%
  • vessels 11 years of age and older, and over 50'- 70-80%
  • vessels 11 years of age and older, from 30' to 50'- 30-40%
  • vessels 11 years of age and older, 25' to 30'- 20-30%
  • vessels 11 years of age and older, and under 24'- 10-15%

Plenty of newer vessel owners in the mid range categories go with adding the boat to the same carrier that covers their vehicles, because it's easy, and satisfies the loan requirement to carry insurance. The bad flip side is that they will be surprised if a claim occurs and they really find out what coverage they don't have......
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:06 PM   #16
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A timely thread. I have received a letter from Traveler's Ins. stating that because of a claim that was filed earlier this summer for towing due to mechanical / engine failure. I am required to get a survey. The survey needs to be completed 120 days before my renewal. The problem is that the language used in the processing of this claim is way off. The fact is we were anchored in Port Ludlow for one night. The next day we were moving into our reserved slip for the weekend. The boat would not start, called Vessel Assist for a jump. The engine started right up, we went to our slip with the vessel assist boat hanging around to make sure there were no problems. I have told the ins. broker that I don't need or want a survey, that there is a big difference between a dead battery and engine failure. I also requested documentation that shows the incorrect description of the problem be removed from my file. They said if I provided receipts for the 2 8D batteries I bought (which I have ) they would except an in the water survey. Again, I said I don't want to pay for a survey at this time because of a dead start battery. They said if I would de-value my boat to $ 75,000 they might not require the survey. I said if they are going to force me in to it then will drop them and shop for coverage. That was two days ago and no word yet. Does this sound reasonable or are they trying to push me around? It feels like a pain in the ... to me.
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:15 PM   #17
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A timely thread. I have received a letter from Traveler's Ins. stating that because of a claim that was filed earlier this summer for towing due to mechanical / engine failure. I am required to get a survey. The survey needs to be completed 120 days before my renewal. The problem is that the language used in the processing of this claim is way off. The fact is we were anchored in Port Ludlow for one night. The next day we were moving into our reserved slip for the weekend. The boat would not start, called Vessel Assist for a jump. The engine started right up, we went to our slip with the vessel assist boat hanging around to make sure there were no problems. I have told the ins. broker that I don't need or want a survey, that there is a big difference between a dead battery and engine failure. I also requested documentation that shows the incorrect description of the problem be removed from my file. They said if I provided receipts for the 2 8D batteries I bought (which I have ) they would except an in the water survey. Again, I said I don't want to pay for a survey at this time because of a dead start battery. They said if I would de-value my boat to $ 75,000 they might not require the survey. I said if they are going to force me in to it then will drop them and shop for coverage. That was two days ago and no word yet. Does this sound reasonable or are they trying to push me around? It feels like a pain in the ... to me.

Steve- Who filed the claim; you or Vessel Assist?


Something sounds really off- just sent you a PM.
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:39 PM   #18
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Steve- Who filed the claim; you or Vessel Assist?


Something sounds really off- just sent you a PM.
I don't even see why Traveler's would be aware of the tow or care about it. Did you notify them or did you tell Vessel Assist about it?
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:47 PM   #19
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I don't even see why Traveler's would be aware of the tow or care about it. Did you notify them or did you tell Vessel Assist about it?
Travelers would know about the claim if (A) the insured reported the claim (towing and assistance is covered to the policy limits) or; (b) VA filed a claim as a result of services rendered and expanded their definition of how the client was assisted.

I think something is rotten in Denmark....
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:49 PM   #20
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A very good question- and one that I don't have an easy answer for. Using a broad brush, I would estimate that:
  • vessels over 100'- near 100%
  • vessels 10 years of age and newer, and over 50'- 80+%
  • vessels 10 years of age and newer, from 30' to 50'- 70-80%
  • vessels 10 years of age and newer, 25' to 30'- 60%
  • vessels 10 years of age and newer, and under 24'- 30-40%
  • vessels 11 years of age and older, and over 50'- 70-80%
  • vessels 11 years of age and older, from 30' to 50'- 30-40%
  • vessels 11 years of age and older, 25' to 30'- 20-30%
  • vessels 11 years of age and older, and under 24'- 10-15%

Plenty of newer vessel owners in the mid range categories go with adding the boat to the same carrier that covers their vehicles, because it's easy, and satisfies the loan requirement to carry insurance. The bad flip side is that they will be surprised if a claim occurs and they really find out what coverage they don't have......
Regarding Liability: I have a half a million in liability on my boat insurance policy. There doesn't seem to be exclusions on what the liability covers other than not being in FL during hurricane season. I have a personal umbrella policy that covers cars, boat, homes, etc that are liability insured to half a million. The policy picks up the same liabilities of the other policies and covers into the millions. The boat policy is noted on the umbrella policy

Do you see a problem with a two step coverage plan like this?

Ted
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