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Old 12-27-2010, 06:36 AM   #21
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RE: Boat Survey

If the vessel you may be looking at is otherwise acceptable, there are many vessels out there with DDs that*are ideal repower candidates.

It is* not uncommon that an Alaska commercial fishing boat will swap out DDs for Cummins or JD. Ditto repowers of 8 or 12V 92s Bertrams, Viking and Post sportfishing yachts with a Cummins or MTU. In these canyon runners the lighter newer diesels completely transform the vessel by cutting weight, increasing range and providing higher speed.*

There are many trawlers that are likewise candidates for swapping out a 6-71 or* 4-53*for a Tier II/II Cummins or JD with big improvements to range and mileage.
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:31 AM   #22
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Boat Survey

Quote:
FF wrote:DD's Are Detroit Diesels , the most common being the 6-71.

Designed in 1936 and modestly efficient if selected and set up properly

A DD will produce 16 hp from a gallon of diesel, some more modern 50's taxi cab engine marinizations can go 18hp
If you calculate a "heat balance" for the fuel that is consumed by a DD it will come out something like this:

Fuel energy input: 100%

Energy delivered to prop:* 25%
Energy lost to exhaust:**** 30%
Energy lost to coolant:***** 20%
Energy lost to friction :****** *5%
Energy lost to noise:******** 15%
Energy lost to hot oil leaks into bilge:* 5%

Most of the efficiency gains claimed by modern engines results from reduced lube oil leakage and the elimination of noise. DDs are known for their utility in converting diesel fuel to decibels.



*


-- Edited by RickB on Monday 27th of December 2010 09:33:38 AM
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:31 AM   #23
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RE: Boat Survey

KJ wrote:

I'd like to revisit the first part of my inquiry.* If you were going to get pre purchase surveys done, which would you (or did you) get done first, the boat or the engines?
************************************************** *****************

When we purchased our boat it wasn't an either/or decision or first/second it was a matter of getting the two independent events scheduled.* The vessel surveyor was a popular guy and we had to squeeze his availability into the purchase process.* The engine survey was done by a local engine shop a couple of days after the general survey.* The purchase decision was based upon the vessel surveyor and what he told us verbally during the survey.* We told the broker "we'll take the boat but we want to hold the final decision on the results of the engine survey and oil sample".*

I elected to have an oil sample done because I knew the oil had not been changed for some time.* There was no history of previous oil samples but the one we took gave us a general indication of contaminant levels.* Mostly I talked to the mechanic and he said the engine looked/sounded good.* The oil sample actually took about two weeks to get back from the lab so it really wasn't a determinant in the decision process.

On the subject of spectrum oil analysis...I do sampling of the engine oil and the trans fluid once a year*in August or September*and I have six years of tests as a baseline.*

To answer your question the general/hull survey will answer the questions about buying the boat.* The engine survey justs confirms what you discovered during the hull survey and the sea trial.* Find a good hull surveyor.
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Old 12-27-2010, 09:50 AM   #24
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RE: Boat Survey

Many walk from buying a vessel due to less than satisfactory oil analysis. I did it once due to high copper in a transmission oil sample and the owner unwilling to foot the entire repair bill if problems were found during a tear down.

Waiting for oil analysis results is a wise thing to do IMHO. It is less to do with metals and more to do with coolant in many engines. Some engines are prone/endemic to*HX failure and others cracked heads, either issue allowing coolant into the oil.
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:29 AM   #25
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RE: Boat Survey

Quote:
Steppen wrote:

*The engine survey justs confirms what you discovered during the hull survey and the sea trial.*
This is true,* If the engine turns up to the proper RPM at full throttle, the tach is close to the actual RPM (verified with a Photo Tach), the thermostat opens at the proper temperature you are about done.* Leaks of oil or antifreeze should have shown up on the general survey.* The folks doing the engine survey can't see inside the engine*either.* So unless you include pulling the injectors and testing them and doing a compression (which costs more) you don't really get much more than what a good general survey should catch.

I do not agree that the oil samples on an engine are useless.*One only is not of much use, that is true, and especially if it is done on new oil.**The first one done is just a base line and when you get it done by Gregory Poole Caterpillar the first one states,"ALL TESTS APPEAR NORMAL. MORE SAMPLE HISTORY NEEDED TO ESTABLISH A NORMAL WEAR TREND. CONTINUE SAMPLING AT NORMAL INTERVAL."<font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"></font>*</font><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"></font>*

But even on the first one it tells you a little more then just*the condition of the oil.*** It tells you if there is any Antifreeze,*Water,*Salt Water or*Fuel*present all of which could be tell tale signs of things to come.

***Lab #************************** ST *OXI *NIT* SUL* W A *F * PFC*** V100D180-40347-0505**** 10 *12* **8*** 18* *N* N* N *2.12* *12.3Ag = Silver, Al = Aluminum, B = Boron, Ca = Calcium, Cr = Chromium, Cu = Copper, Fe = Iron, P = Phosphorus, K = Potassium, Mg = Magnesium, Mo = Molybdenum, Na = Sodium, Ni = Nickel, Pb = Lead, Si = Silicon, Sn = Tin,V = Vanadium, Zn = Zinc, A = Antifreeze, F = Fuel, W = Water, P = Positive, N = Negative, T = Trace, E = Excessive, NIT = Nitration, OXI = Oxidation, ST = Soot, SUL = Sulfation, ISO = ISO Rating, PFC = Percent Fuel Content,PQI = Particle Quantifying index , NaW = Salt Water, FL Pt = Flash Point, TAN = Total Acid Number, TBN = Total Base Number, H2O = Karl Fisher result, V100 = Viscosity@100C, V40 = Viscosity@40C<font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="Arial" size="1"><font face="Arial" size="1"></font>*</font></font>
So to say it does nothing in my mind is just incorrect.

In the sale of my last boat the four oil samples I had stopped the buyer from*spending the money on*an engine survey.* He took the*four oil*analysis to the engine survey folks along with the General survey (which verified the Tach, Top engine speed in gear and out and coolant temps) and the engine survey said that was just about all they could do unless he wanted a compression test done (a compression test was done and the injectors rebuilt just 300 hours before for which the paper work was on hand). So useless, I don't think so, definitive probably not but at $15 some piece of mind for sure.
</font><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="Arial" size="1"></font>*</font>
So to say it does nothing in my mind is just incorrect.

In the sale of my last boat the four oil samples I had stopped the buyer from*spending the money on*an engine survey.* He took the*four oil*analysis to the engine survey folks along with the General survey (which verified the Tach, Top engine speed in gear and out and coolant temps) and the engine survey said that was just about all they could do unless he wanted a compression test done (a compression test was done and the injectors rebuilt just 300 hours before for which the paper work was on hand). So useless, I don't think so, definitive probably not but at $15 some piece of mind for sure.
</font>
<font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"></font>So to say it does nothing in my mind is just incorrect.In the sale of my last boat the four oil samples I had stopped the buyer from*spending the money on*an engine survey.* He took the*four oil*analysis to the engine survey folks along with the General survey (which verified the Tach, Top engine speed in gear and out and coolant temps) and the engine survey said that was just about all they could do unless he wanted a compression test done (a compression test was done and the injectors rebuilt just 300 hours before for which the paper work was on hand). So useless, I don't think so, definitive probably not but at $15 some piece of mind for sure.</font><font face="ArialNarrow" size="1"></font>*
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:25 AM   #26
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Boat Survey

We typically get the boat surveyed and pull an oil sample at the same time.* We make a decision about an engine survey based on the oil sample and sea trial engine performance and temps.* In the case of Victoria, our current boat, the oil sample on the port engine was high in sodium and it turned out we had a leaky aftercooler.* Luckily, the leak was small and recent so there was no engine damage, but the seller ended up with an $8,000 dollar repair bill, that without the oil sample, would have been my bill later.* I oil sample the engines, transmissions and generator at every change and more than once I have detected problems early that were easy to fix and saved major headaches, I believe it is very cheap insurance.**The lab I use sends the oil bottles free and only charges when they do the analysis.* The lab keeps a record*of the results and can detect*subtle changes in parameters.*

-- Edited by Avista on Monday 27th of December 2010 12:28:48 PM
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:22 PM   #27
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RE: Boat Survey

Quote:
Avista wrote:The lab I use sends the oil bottles free and only charges when they do the analysis.* The lab keeps a record*of the results and can detect*subtle changes in parameters.*

-- Edited by Avista on Monday 27th of December 2010 12:28:48 PM
Gregory Poole CAT* charges I believe*$12.50 per sample kit and that includes the bottle, a*prepaid US Postal*postage container and the analysis with both a printed copy maid to you and a*PDF file e-mailed to you.

Cheap at twice the price.*
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:27 PM   #28
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RE: Boat Survey

Quote:
KJ wrote:

I'd like to revisit the first part of my inquiry.* If you were going to get pre purchase surveys done, which would you (or did you) get done first, the boat or the engines?* KJ
We had them done concurrently.* We flew to Alameda, CA and early the next morning inspected the boat, took it out onto San Francisco Bay for the sea trial, then took it to a boatyard on the old Navy Base where they have a Travelift.* The engine surveyor arrived and spent a couple of hours checking out the engines and generator while the boat was in the water.* Then the hull/structural surveyor arrived and did the first part of the survey with the boat in the water, then the boat was hauled and he did the second part of the survey with the boat out of the water.
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