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Old 06-18-2010, 01:42 PM   #41
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RE: Boat selection opinions

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Marin wrote:

*
nomadwilly wrote:I'd only need one engine but it sure as hell wouldn't be a POS Lehman......
*

What's wrong with a single Lehman? ...or twins?



*
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:54 PM   #42
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Boat selection opinions

We've had this discussion here before a few time so I'm going to repeat myself (again). But basically it was a great engine in the 1950s when it was designed, but it's not the 1950s anymore. The FL120 is too heavy, too underpowered, too inefficient,*too polluting,*and too noisy. Compared to what's available today, they're crap, in my opinion, despite the fact that we (sadly) have two of them in our boat.

They're relatively dependable and reasonably long-lived, but in my book that does not make up for all their other deficiencies.

The same people that jumped all over me when I first voiced this opinion will probably do so again, and that's fine--- everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But nothing anyone can say is going to make me change my mind about these engines. If we could afford it we'd have them out of our boat in a heartbeat but our boat is not worth the cost of repowering as long as its original engines are running correctly, to say nothing of the cost itself. So we'll continue to treat them well (which means you have to have a 1950s mindset), but it doesn't mean we have to like them.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 18th of June 2010 02:55:19 PM
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:30 PM   #43
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Everybody's entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:14 PM   #44
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Is the ass end of my boat respectable or not? Eric? You asked, inquiring mind wants to know.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:40 AM   #45
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Boat selection opinions

Michael,A very fine ass indeed. The rudder is a bit more tug boat than yacht * *..even has an extra flange. For strength I assume. The silhouette of same forms a very pleasing line.*The flange on the shaft is an excellent feature for slow speed craft (wish mine was flanged). The keel trailing edge has a handsome scalloped trailing edge silhouette and appears to have a rather fine water exit.*The bottom of your hull is rather flat in the center and that gives you a taller rudder without added draft. A plus. The rather hard turn of the bilge at the transom may give you a tiny bit of extra stability that you can probably use as I remember from past pics that your mid-section has very slack bilges. Your hull may be driven at full hull speed (1.34XSRootWLL( a speed/length ratio of 1)) more easily than most FD hulls that shine best at a speed/length ratio of .85 to .9. because you have a narrower beam and softer chines but your quarter beam buttock line (how fast the bottom ramps up near the stern) may make me wrong about the speed prediction as this is probably the most important part of a design that makes one FD. The partly submerged transom makes your hull 98 or 99% FD (in my opinion) but this helps reduce the QBBL angle that gives a bit more speed. This is the feature I wish more trawlers had. Your quarter beam buttock line is of a higher angle (steeper) than Keith's Krogen. Without the steep QBBL you would likely pay the price of less than stellar performance in quartering seas. But w your (fairly) steep QBBL and large rudder I'm sure she's a graceful lady in following seas. A very fine ass indeed.


Eric Henning




-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 19th of June 2010 09:52:51 AM
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:16 AM   #46
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Marin,You and Miss Lehman arent headed for the divorce court are you??? Youv'e spoken more adoring words about how sweet Miss Lehman is than most of us have spoken words. Too heavy??? All chain rode didn't even phase the GB. What's the matter w more engine weight? Noisy? I remember when I suggested you put 55hp Yanmars in GB you said you liked an engine to roar and make a thunderous experience of it.Then you showed me pics of PT boats. How can an engine be "underpowered"? You already said it was heavy. I don't recall you ever making an eco post but now the lady Lehman smokes?? You must have had a bad day. POS Lehmans? Go get a repower estimate and you'll probably love them again.
Take lady Lehman some flowers and tell her your'e sorry.


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Old 06-19-2010, 11:46 AM   #47
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Boat selection opinions

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nomadwilly wrote:Youv'e spoken more adoring words about how sweet Miss Lehman is than most of us have spoken words.
You must be thinking of someone else.* I have never liked Ford Lehman engines---- we had to think long and hard about buying the boat we have mainly because I had sworn years before we started contemplating the acquisition of this type of boat to never own one with Lehman diesels in it.* Even before we knew much of anything about "trawlers" I knew about Lehmans.* But the boat itself and the deal were too good to pass up for what we wanted to do with a boat, so I very reluctantly agreed to acquire a boat with Lehmans.* And we take good care of them and run the properly because, as you say, the cost of a repower is prohibitive (for us, anyway).

But I'd love to have a hundred grand or thereabouts to have a bunch of cosmetic stuff done to the boat's exterior, a good paint job, and to get rid of the Lehmans and put in something better.* It's sort of a Bruce-Rocna thing for me.* The Bruce works, more or less, but why mess with it when there are other anchors that are so much better to use.* Same thing with the Lehman in my opinion.* Good engines in their day, their day has long, long since past.

I do like an engine to roar, but it had better put out the power to go with the roar.* All you get with a Lehman is the racket.* No power to go with it.

When I said the Lehman is underpowered, it's ridiculously underpowered for its weight.* For the size and weight of an FL120 you can get 400 horsepower these days, not a pathetic 120.

And actually, our Lehmans dont' smoke at all except for a few minutes after startup when they're cold.* They do, on the other hand, put a lot of unburned fuel into the water when they're cold, a characteristic of most or all diesels of that era.* New ones don't do this.* A friend in the marine diesel manufacturing business told me years ago that the unburned-fuel-out-the-exhaust issue was, in his and his company's experience, the single most difficult thing to cure in diesel design with regard to environmental issues.



-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 19th of June 2010 11:56:53 AM
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Old 06-20-2010, 03:55 AM   #48
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RE: Boat selection opinions

One simple thought is to look at the width of the immersed transom in feet.

The number of feet wide is a rough guide to the designed cruising speed in K.

Look around at the marina , it sorta works at the lower speed ranges.

The guy with the 40ft 100 GPH fish killer that does 35K-50K to get out is the glaring exception.
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:04 AM   #49
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Mr. FF,
** So are you suggesting a boat with 11' of submerged transom should be able to do 11 knots?
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:04 AM   #50
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Fred,But the fish killer has the widest transom and the highest speed.


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Old 06-20-2010, 08:20 AM   #51
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RE: Boat selection opinions

RicF,Welcome to our forum.
Twins are better except that their propellers are more vulnerable and the cost is greater.
Look in the archives * * ..we've discussed/argued that issue to death several times ago.
As for Ford Lehman engines they are as good as the've ever been (actually a bit better) and judging by the number of them out there they are obviously durable enough. As Marin says/implies * * .. take care of them and they will take care of you. Tell us a little about you and your twin engined boat.


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Old 06-20-2010, 08:49 AM   #52
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Marin,If I was to repower your boat I'd be looking at Ivecos or Deers and dreamin about 3-53 Detroits. I just saw Toms (sunchaser) Sabre/Perkins and they really look good but so does every thing else on his boat. His 49 DeFever looks like it belongs in the boats afloat show.
Tom and Jan are probably about ready to head for Kake and southern Chatham Strait. in the Indian village of Kake his Defever will really stand out. If Old Salt drops in this year I'll at least will probably be here. Going to Ketchikan for about a week soon though.
RT,
I think he said that one goes 50 knots but then he also said it was an exception.
The pic is of the old floats in the Kake harbor.


Eric
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Old 06-20-2010, 11:47 AM   #53
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
If I was to repower your boat I'd be looking at Ivecos or Deers

*
If we were to repower we woud use what a number of GB owners have used with excellent results, and that is the 150 hp, non-turbo Lugger engine.* I can't remember if this engine is based on a Deere block or a Japanese block, but whichever it is, from the accounts I've heard from the GB owners who have it, it's an outstanding engine.* Very efficient, very smooth, good power-to-weight ratio, etc.* It makes the FL120 look like a very noisy, very heavy, wound up rubber band

*
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Old 06-20-2010, 07:46 PM   #54
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Quote:
Marin wrote:If we were to repower we woud use what a number of GB owners have used with excellent results, and that is the 150 hp, non-turbo Lugger engine.*
I could not agree more! So many Nordhavns, Offshores, etc have proved the Luggers to be outstanding.

*
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:31 AM   #55
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RE: Boat selection opinions

Thanks Eric, great explanation.
Mike
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:03 AM   #56
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RE: Boat selection opinions

So are you suggesting a boat with 11' of submerged transom should be able to do 11 knots?


On a slower boat of "normal" proportions its a good guide.

Our Navy Utility is about 10 ft at the transom., and the expected operation is 10-12k , depending on load. 150 men aren't light.
Light the boat is about 20,000lbs loaded double that.
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