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Old 09-10-2016, 09:23 PM   #61
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Another thought on towing insurance....

We have a group of us that boat together, meet up and hang around, all within ~3 miles on the water. Boats from singles/twins, inboard/outboard, cruisers, trawlers, pontoons and we all agree to help each other if stranded. Sundancers, Bertram, Grand Banks, Grady, Hurricane and others.

The last time was about 6 years ago... same guy twice and he sold the boat. And just a few weeks ago with my buddies SE trawler... and that's it.... ever. So, in our case of about 15 boats, none of us would really benefit from insurance.

Just another perspective.
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Old 09-10-2016, 09:39 PM   #62
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The Loop 19' height restriction is met generally by lowering antennas and biminis. This is the Erie Canal max ht (but exiting at Oswego). If you want to go all the way to Buffalo it's 16'. But, even then the Canal is variable in freshette and storm conditions.

Sailboats all transit with masts on deck.
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Old 09-11-2016, 06:32 AM   #63
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Agree mostly

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Bill,

That's probably true, but never been asked or heard of that... yet. Have you been asked, and do folks really carry insurance papers with them? And there's other situations where a business or entity wants to see your insurance (and other things). I tend to avoid them. So far, not an issue.
In 18 years of boating, I have never been asked, except in our home marina.

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Old 09-11-2016, 06:48 AM   #64
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Becoming more popular on the ACIW.

Have had about a dozen ask now.

Usually only if more than one night...then all you do is call your insurance company and the will fax/email what is required. Good news is if you call for a reservation, they tell you up front so a call to the insurance company can get the ball rolling that day.

For one marina, I had to up my liability to $500,000.
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Old 09-11-2016, 07:36 AM   #65
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Our goal was to get under 15'6" so we could do the entire canal system as well as visits sites at Lake Champlain and up the CT river.
If you are headed the full route through the Tenn Tom area you will also see a need for a larger fuel range - just a few examples of route requirements.
Knowing what your cruising goals are now will allow you to select the best boats for that need.
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Old 09-11-2016, 07:45 AM   #66
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Insurance...
We often boated in a 'paper' cruising club of 55+ boats with about 30 of them being very active. Many cruises were completed with at least two dozen boats hitting the same ports and/or anchoring out in larger groups for a night or two along the way. On one anchor out in 2014 there were 6 boats on a heavy mooring ball on a one night stay over along the route - a very peaceful night. One of the older kids (about 12) from one boat somehow slipped and fell an another boats swim step returning to her boat. The leg fracture left a bine sticking out and a lot of damage and she was then quickly moved to shore and then airlifted to a local hospital. To this day she is still getting skin grafts and follow on work to try and restore her ability to walk without a limp.
A peaceful night , a normally simple fall, and then a huge mess of injury and damage followed on by very large insurance issues and claims.
You never know some things about boats but they are anything except low risk.....
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:08 AM   #67
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Car/truck insurance....


Luckily I have never had an accident that was in any way caused by my operations.
On July 6th 2016 I was not so lucky driving my 2013 crew cab pickup on a lightly used two lane rural road at 30 mph on the way home as I always do.
From the corner of my eye I see a larger pickup heading towards my pass rear side from a private driveway at higher speed - no time to react the pass rear door get hit spinning my truck 270 degrees. It is curious to note that there is no continuation of that side road to where my drivers side was at the time so if I was not there it appears he would have ended up in the 'woods' over a heavy fence. A stone mason business is very near to the corner where he was existing and so there was both witness's as well as some video tape from the mason yards cameras.
The police were there within a few minutes and an ambulance was there not too much later. The rear end of my pickup was driven a few feet back and up into the bed on the pass side. The driveshaft was laying on the road, axle was bent, transfer case was cracked etc etc - it was a mess. I did not seem too bad with just a slight concussion from the side widow and a sprained knee that did not allow me to fully walk on.
The other driver was uninsured and besides that ticket also received 4 others for various issues.
Costs to repair the damages to my truck was just about equal to 18 years of premiums.
Costs for the rental car and a number of hospital and doctor bills is not fully completed yet but it is in excess of 8 years premiums to date so far that I know.
My insurance covered this "un-insured" motorist event fully so far.
Since he did not have insurance he was issued a minimum NY fine of $1,500 on the spot that was later raised to $4,000 - that plus the 3 other tickets were well over $5,000 and a mandatory loss off license for at least one year.
My insurance company has now made a claim against his assets (house) for the costs associated with the accident as well as the costs associated with managing the affair of at least $30,000 so far but their is no limit to what may be added if other medical issues arise.
So , less than 6 weeks ago here is the story of someone who tends to be a 'low risk' user of motor vehicles.
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Old 09-11-2016, 10:19 AM   #68
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Insurance...
We often boated in a 'paper' cruising club of 55+ boats with about 30 of them being very active. Many cruises were completed with at least two dozen boats hitting the same ports and/or anchoring out in larger groups for a night or two along the way. On one anchor out in 2014 there were 6 boats on a heavy mooring ball on a one night stay over along the route - a very peaceful night. One of the older kids (about 12) from one boat somehow slipped and fell an another boats swim step returning to her boat. The leg fracture left a bine sticking out and a lot of damage and she was then quickly moved to shore and then airlifted to a local hospital. To this day she is still getting skin grafts and follow on work to try and restore her ability to walk without a limp.
A peaceful night , a normally simple fall, and then a huge mess of injury and damage followed on by very large insurance issues and claims.
You never know some things about boats but they are anything except low risk.....
This is the type accident common at one's home too. A freak accident, something no one would have anticipated, and the person injured being forced to file against you and your insurance. The thing is too that if it was at my home, even if I had no fault, I would want to see that the injured person was fully taken care of either by their insurance or mine and got all the treatment they needed without being bankrupted.
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Old 09-11-2016, 10:29 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
Car/truck insurance....


Luckily I have never had an accident that was in any way caused by my operations.
On July 6th 2016 I was not so lucky driving my 2013 crew cab pickup on a lightly used two lane rural road at 30 mph on the way home as I always do.
From the corner of my eye I see a larger pickup heading towards my pass rear side from a private driveway at higher speed - no time to react the pass rear door get hit spinning my truck 270 degrees. It is curious to note that there is no continuation of that side road to where my drivers side was at the time so if I was not there it appears he would have ended up in the 'woods' over a heavy fence. A stone mason business is very near to the corner where he was existing and so there was both witness's as well as some video tape from the mason yards cameras.
The police were there within a few minutes and an ambulance was there not too much later. The rear end of my pickup was driven a few feet back and up into the bed on the pass side. The driveshaft was laying on the road, axle was bent, transfer case was cracked etc etc - it was a mess. I did not seem too bad with just a slight concussion from the side widow and a sprained knee that did not allow me to fully walk on.
The other driver was uninsured and besides that ticket also received 4 others for various issues.
Costs to repair the damages to my truck was just about equal to 18 years of premiums.
Costs for the rental car and a number of hospital and doctor bills is not fully completed yet but it is in excess of 8 years premiums to date so far that I know.
My insurance covered this "un-insured" motorist event fully so far.
Since he did not have insurance he was issued a minimum NY fine of $1,500 on the spot that was later raised to $4,000 - that plus the 3 other tickets were well over $5,000 and a mandatory loss off license for at least one year.
My insurance company has now made a claim against his assets (house) for the costs associated with the accident as well as the costs associated with managing the affair of at least $30,000 so far but their is no limit to what may be added if other medical issues arise.
So , less than 6 weeks ago here is the story of someone who tends to be a 'low risk' user of motor vehicles.
This is a great example. Now, for many nothing like this ever happens and I hope it doesn't for me. And, like all insurance, the best circumstance is I never recover the premiums. I look at it as win/win. If I need it, then it's there. If I don't need it, then I was fortunate. My home is insured against fire. I don't look at it as me losing if I don't have a fire.

Yours is still a relatively small claim. What if a death involved and millions of dollars? Take the above example of the 12 year old's injury. Had the child hit wrong and died, not only would you all be dealing with that tragedy and the emotions of it, but also the legal ramifications.

These are the types of events that destroy families financially, even wealthy families. I've seen businesses have to close over one major accident. I've seen many individuals sued and the moment they lost the case, they'd file bankruptcy as they clearly could never pay what the verdict was. So, they lost everything they had except their home and perhaps a significant part of their future earnings too.
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Old 09-11-2016, 10:58 AM   #70
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Some people think you should only buy insurance if you think you'll come out ahead. Not me, I hope I never need the coverage I have.

Most people never have big claims. Sure, that's why insurance companies make money. But every once in a while, insurance keeps you from losing everything you've spent your life working for. If you're thirty, maybe that's not so much, and you can make it again. When you're sixty, different perspective.

And for the poster who says he'll just write the check, well, when the day comes, I'll bet not. I'll have to spend a couple of years in court, and then try to enforce a judgment. And hope you really can write the check, if forced to. So I have to protect myself from you. Insurance.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:53 AM   #71
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I'm betting that I'm not going to need insurance. If I'm found negligent and hurt someone else, I'll write the check, but I'm sure you know there's tons of folks out there that can't and won't protect you for their negligence.
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And for the poster who says he'll just write the check, well, when the day comes, I'll bet not.

The potential fine for a fuel spill is the one that I worry about most. I couldn't write a check for a million $$ or whatever...

-Chris
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:09 PM   #72
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Chris...just sink or hit a light oil barge where there is a lot of tidal current.

Never hit something with asphalt or crude.

Other than that...out of hundreds of salvages..I don't think I have ever heard of "environmental cleanup" charged other than a few oil diapers and a couple man hours of labor. The other way is a pump out of the sunken vessel if the USCG determines the fuel or oil left onboard is an environmental threat.

Probably why the insurance companies have been raising the limits so much and not really charging that much more. They just raised mine to $800,000, no additional charge.
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:38 PM   #73
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Other than that...out of hundreds of salvages..I don't think I have ever heard of "environmental cleanup" charged other than a few oil diapers and a couple man hours of labor. The other way is a pump out of the sunken vessel if the USCG determines the fuel or oil left onboard is an environmental threat.

Probably why the insurance companies have been raising the limits so much and not really charging that much more. They just raised mine to $800,000, no additional charge.

Slightly reassuring...



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Old 09-11-2016, 05:21 PM   #74
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This insurance thing is only a risk benefit equation. If you can't afford the risk, buy the insurance. If you can then perhaps it's not a good deal.

Overall, I'd bet the amount the insurance companies pay in claims is in the 30 to 40% of premiums. Where's the insurance experts?

With those odds, you're paying a HUGE premium to support their overhead, profit, commissions, big buildings and the group that doesn't want to pay claims. Not for me.

The exceptions have been posted but for a judgment, one has to be negligent. A kid falling off a boat... whose really negligent? And the guy that got T boned, who was really negligent? Don't get me wrong, I feel for the kid and others that get hurt, but if it's their fault, so be it.

Sure, the insuring companies settle these because that's the cheapest way out. I'd bet that there's not one person on the forum that has had a million dollar settlement against them... period. (Ill stand corrected if someone proves otherwise).

The risk is SO low, that a prudent person could easily avoid it.

However, if one purchases a cheap liability policy, they at least get the lawyer paid for, and nothing wrong with that.

Whatever works for you.
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Old 09-14-2016, 06:19 AM   #75
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"A kid falling off a boat... whose really negligent?"


In the case I cited it was quickly determined that the owner of the boat where she fell was responsible. The costs of claim moved above $100,000 within the first year - not sure where they went after that as I have not asked.


"And the guy that got T boned, who was really negligent?"
As I said in the post - he was determined to be negligent in the PO report and with the video. As mentioned he currently has a lien against his home as the case progresses but the claims could have easily been much larger dependent upon who was in my truck at the time and the extent of injuries.


How do you drive cars and truck in Florida without auto insurance? It is required by law there is it not?
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Old 09-14-2016, 06:34 AM   #76
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Yes, and yes.

-Chris
What he said. ^
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Old 09-14-2016, 06:55 AM   #77
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If a person trespassing on your property can sue you....and actually win....

Not sure you can apply the "negligent or not" theory too hard.
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Old 09-14-2016, 07:42 AM   #78
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I classify Dr.s (they will kill you), Lawyers ( they will break you) and insurance (w/o it others will break you) all in the same category. No one can make you their customer. If you do not use them and their services properly you may very well wish you had.
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Old 09-14-2016, 08:47 AM   #79
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Quote:
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This insurance thing is only a risk benefit equation. If you can't afford the risk, buy the insurance. If you can then perhaps it's not a good deal.

Overall, I'd bet the amount the insurance companies pay in claims is in the 30 to 40% of premiums. Where's the insurance experts?

With those odds, you're paying a HUGE premium to support their overhead, profit, commissions, big buildings and the group that doesn't want to pay claims. Not for me.

The exceptions have been posted but for a judgment, one has to be negligent. A kid falling off a boat... whose really negligent? And the guy that got T boned, who was really negligent? Don't get me wrong, I feel for the kid and others that get hurt, but if it's their fault, so be it.

Sure, the insuring companies settle these because that's the cheapest way out. I'd bet that there's not one person on the forum that has had a million dollar settlement against them... period. (Ill stand corrected if someone proves otherwise).

The risk is SO low, that a prudent person could easily avoid it.

However, if one purchases a cheap liability policy, they at least get the lawyer paid for, and nothing wrong with that.

Whatever works for you.
You are so lucky you don't live in Dade County or Southeast FL! They regularly run TV ads where purported victims (with no signs of injury whatsoever) scream testimonials that "Shyster XYZ got us $X,XXX,XXX". And if you don't watch TV, that is okay because road signs are plastered with the same claims. And there are a legion of Shyster XYZ's waiting for you to call with your injury.

Disclaimer - no longer live in Southeast Florida.
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Old 09-14-2016, 09:00 AM   #80
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You are so lucky you don't live in Dade County or Southeast FL! They regularly run TV ads where purported victims (with no signs of injury whatsoever) scream testimonials that "Shyster XYZ got us $X,XXX,XXX". And if you don't watch TV, that is okay because road signs are plastered with the same claims. And there are a legion of Shyster XYZ's waiting for you to call with your injury.

Disclaimer - no longer live in Southeast Florida.
Rest assured those television ads are nationwide, greater in metropolitan areas simply because more people to target.
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