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Old 09-08-2016, 11:11 PM   #41
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Some very good points here, thanks much.

Got me thinking... yes if the only head broke down it would be a bitch, and the Admiral would not like that if she had to hang it over the side.

Good point on the wood, sounds rather easy to deal with, and does have a rich look.

I don't have much of an ego, so any comfy boat "can" do, but will like some creature comforts. After all, that's what we work for.

The washer dryer comments are interesting, but would like to have one... I don't want to spend time doing wash if a machine will do it.

And, we are mostly hang on the hook people, and do our own thing, but nice to mix with others and usually meet them at marinas, etc, so a some of each will do. I'm not a big "go out for dinner" guy, a burger and a beer on the boat is fine for me but the Admiral will want an occasional nice restaurant... but certainly not more that once or twice a week.

I'll adjust the parameters of the size of the boat (draft, air height, beam, capacities, etc. to the cruising requirement for the trip.

Don't have path figured out, but cutting thru NY, Erie, great lakes thru lake Michigan, Chicago River, Illinois River, Mississippi, Tom Bigby across the gulf sounds great. In FL I'll cut across thru Lake Okeechobee and skip the Keys. Been to the keys hundreds of times.

Very good thought, folks, thanks!
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:20 AM   #42
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Some very good points here, thanks much.

Got me thinking... yes if the only head broke down it would be a bitch, and the Admiral would not like that if she had to hang it over the side.

Good point on the wood, sounds rather easy to deal with, and does have a rich look.

I don't have much of an ego, so any comfy boat "can" do, but will like some creature comforts. After all, that's what we work for.

The washer dryer comments are interesting, but would like to have one... I don't want to spend time doing wash if a machine will do it.

And, we are mostly hang on the hook people, and do our own thing, but nice to mix with others and usually meet them at marinas, etc, so a some of each will do. I'm not a big "go out for dinner" guy, a burger and a beer on the boat is fine for me but the Admiral will want an occasional nice restaurant... but certainly not more that once or twice a week.

I'll adjust the parameters of the size of the boat (draft, air height, beam, capacities, etc. to the cruising requirement for the trip.

Don't have path figured out, but cutting thru NY, Erie, great lakes thru lake Michigan, Chicago River, Illinois River, Mississippi, Tom Bigby across the gulf sounds great. In FL I'll cut across thru Lake Okeechobee and skip the Keys. Been to the keys hundreds of times.

Very good thought, folks, thanks!
The maximum draft for the loop is 19'1". Now that does eliminate some options as you can't take the Champlain or West Erie, just Erie to Oswego River. Draft, most recommend trying to limit to 5', although that's not an absolute necessity.

Washer and dryer and dishwasher are optional items we really value heavily.
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Old 09-09-2016, 06:20 AM   #43
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"Got me thinking... yes if the only head broke down it would be a bitch, and the Admiral would not like that if she had to hang it over the side."

A cheap crap head like a Jabsco might fail easily but a quality mechanical unit will seldom.

Especially if just the crew uses it not guests that have no idea .

To think a second head is required as a "spare " boggles my mind , but could be stowed under a bunk.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:09 AM   #44
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FF,
Good point, one can get "overkill" on backups and just has to decide what backups are really necessary. A little portable head might be in order. Without any, it's more than a bit uncomfortable, especially for a lady. A guy can survive easier, but still can be a challenge.

Now, never had one fail, however, never put one to use on a daily basis for months either. .... oh, disregard, I did have one fail and ended up replacing the whole thing. I remember, now.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:32 AM   #45
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Absloute necessity, Sea Tow or Boats US towing insurance. I would suggest both. This is over and above your regular vessel insurance. If you have it and do not need it if you do not have it and need it

We're there ever an example of an ounce of prevention vs 5lb of cure, this is it.
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:22 PM   #46
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My parents have a Hatteras 43 MY that has been repainted and kept under cover that needs to find a new home. Every year I seem to see a couple of these go by every year with a great loop burgee flying on the bow. Shoot me a PM if interested. Wouldn't be much more then your budget.

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Old 09-10-2016, 09:36 AM   #47
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Absloute necessity, Sea Tow or Boats US towing insurance. I would suggest both. This is over and above your regular vessel insurance. If you have it and do not need it if you do not have it and need it

We're there ever an example of an ounce of prevention vs 5lb of cure, this is it.
Mule,

Well, I might respectfully disagree on this one. Insurance is only a bet on if you'll crash and burn. If one looks at the statistics, they can be better prepared with better operation, more safety training, better maintenance, etc. Insurance is only a risk/benefit financial decision.

I'm betting that I will not need to be towed or sink, so I would choose no insurance. I do that with everything, and I'm ahead far enough to have a house burn down and still be ahead.

Plus when you self insure, there's no deductible, no hassle, no lawyers, no one telling you how to fix things.... insurance companies have a way to try to screw with you and cheat you out of your money.... hundreds of lawsuits against them.

Now, one could make an argument for cheap liability insurance. That's coverage that one nasty incident could not be recoverable in a lifetime, and does pay for the high priced lawyer to defend you. However, I'd bet that 99.5% of the members on this forum have never benefited from and insurance claim.

I know a LOT of boaters that have been boating for over 30 years and have never needed insurance. The only one that did need it did something REALLY stupid... like running at night, full speed, without lights.

Off my soap box for now......
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Old 09-10-2016, 09:55 AM   #48
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Mule,

Well, I might respectfully disagree on this one. Insurance is only a bet on if you'll crash and burn. If one looks at the statistics, they can be better prepared with better operation, more safety training, better maintenance, etc. Insurance is only a risk/benefit financial decision.

I'm betting that I will not need to be towed or sink, so I would choose no insurance. I do that with everything, and I'm ahead far enough to have a house burn down and still be ahead.

Plus when you self insure, there's no deductible, no hassle, no lawyers, no one telling you how to fix things.... insurance companies have a way to try to screw with you and cheat you out of your money.... hundreds of lawsuits against them.

Now, one could make an argument for cheap liability insurance. That's coverage that one nasty incident could not be recoverable in a lifetime, and does pay for the high priced lawyer to defend you. However, I'd bet that 99.5% of the members on this forum have never benefited from and insurance claim.

I know a LOT of boaters that have been boating for over 30 years and have never needed insurance. The only one that did need it did something REALLY stupid... like running at night, full speed, without lights.

Off my soap box for now......
You may find with no proof of insurance you won't be able to get into some marinas. Even for an overnight.
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Old 09-10-2016, 10:17 AM   #49
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You may find with no proof of insurance you won't be able to get into some marinas. Even for an overnight.
Bill,

That's probably true, but never been asked or heard of that... yet. Have you been asked, and do folks really carry insurance papers with them? And there's other situations where a business or entity wants to see your insurance (and other things). I tend to avoid them. So far, not an issue.
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Old 09-10-2016, 11:18 AM   #50
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Have you been asked, and do folks really carry insurance papers with them?
Yes, and yes.

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Old 09-10-2016, 11:19 AM   #51
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One thing I will say that experience has taught me is that once you get use to planning speeds, it's hard to go back.
My last boat was a battle wagon sportfisher that carried 1,000 gallons of fuel but had less than 300nm range at a mid-20 knot cruising speed. That didn't give me near the range I needed to get to the fish I wanted to pursue, so I ended up with my current boat -- 2,300 gallons of fuel, giving a range at 8.5 knots (a really good, fast trolling speed) of over 2,500 nm (with a 10% reserve), and over 2,000 nm range at 10 knots. Doubling that speed cuts the range by about 70%.

Before I ordered the boat, I was aware of those limitations and was concerned about whether I could be comfortable doing everything at trolling speeds. Given my intended use of the boat (primarily multiple-day trips running 24/7), I knew the slower speeds wouldn't bother me at night, since we wouldn't go faster than 10 knots in any event, and I knew that much of my daylight use would be at trolling speed (so we could troll). Even so, I worried that I would regret having given up the fast lane.

To my great surprise and relief, and apparently contrary to your experience, I have found that I have grown to prefer trolling speeds, for a bunch of reasons. First, I find it infinitely more relaxing. I am more comfortable letting others take the helm, I don't worry (as much) about mechanical problems, the ride is much nicer, noise levels are much lower, I see interesting things that I would likely have missed at higher speeds, and it is easy to have other things going on (read a book, bbq, fish, etc.). In short, the travel becomes part of the fun. When going fast the primary thought is always, "how soon until we get there", but while going slow its more like "we will get there tomorrow afternoon".
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Old 09-10-2016, 11:45 AM   #52
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Mule,

Well, I might respectfully disagree on this one. Insurance is only a bet on if you'll crash and burn. If one looks at the statistics, they can be better prepared with better operation, more safety training, better maintenance, etc. Insurance is only a risk/benefit financial decision.

I'm betting that I will not need to be towed or sink, so I would choose no insurance. I do that with everything, and I'm ahead far enough to have a house burn down and still be ahead.

Plus when you self insure, there's no deductible, no hassle, no lawyers, no one telling you how to fix things.... insurance companies have a way to try to screw with you and cheat you out of your money.... hundreds of lawsuits against them.

Now, one could make an argument for cheap liability insurance. That's coverage that one nasty incident could not be recoverable in a lifetime, and does pay for the high priced lawyer to defend you. However, I'd bet that 99.5% of the members on this forum have never benefited from and insurance claim.

I know a LOT of boaters that have been boating for over 30 years and have never needed insurance. The only one that did need it did something REALLY stupid... like running at night, full speed, without lights.

Off my soap box for now......
There are many different items to be insured. If you don't carry liability, then I hope you're prepared to pay a million dollar claim out of pocket. I do feel liability should not be optional anymore than it is on the road. Collision is your business, liability is mine.

Now if you choose no insurance I also hope you're capable of paying the $500k environmental claim resulting from something like sinking.

I carry insurance to protect myself against losses that would be financially significant to me. I also carry it to protect me against uninsured drivers and boaters, uninsured like you. You think it's only you doing something stupid that you'd need it for, but you might well for someone else doing something stupid.

I've never used either of the tow services for a tow, but I carry both memberships. I do it in some ways as thanks to them for the times I do use their captains for information. I also do it as thanks for them being present and available. I don't know if the drunk idiot who ran the 72 footer on the beach the other night had tow membership or not. I do know they were quickly on site with the USCG for salvage work and to assist in protecting against a fuel spill. I believe boating has been made better by their existence in many ways for many people and so paying a hundred or two a year seems like a small thing to them.

I carry insurance on my home and on my cars and my boats. I carry it on myself in the form of an umbrella policy. I carry health insurance even though I've been incredibly healthy. I have had a co-worker whose husband had a lung transplant and saw the cost of that and was very happy they were insured through our employer.

Again, it's your business whether you protect yourself or not, but it's my business whether you protect me. As to marina, your boat could catch fire through something you couldn't foresee and destroy a dock and ten other boats. Can you afford that?

And, yes, I have been asked to show proof of insurance at marinas both in the US and elsewhere. Most of the time not for a one night stay but sometimes for it. Almost always for stays of a week or longer.
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Old 09-10-2016, 12:20 PM   #53
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BandB,

You make some good points, and logical. But it's for YOUR situation and may not be good for all folks.

You just can't insure yourself against everything..... so the question is how much coverage do you want for the risk you take? That's a personal answer.

You could have 1MM and not be enough, 5MM, 10MM and still not enough. You could hit a tour boat and the suits range up into the 100MM range, now what do you do? And you can run into things that are just not insurable. Perhaps you have a boating accident and some power hungry cop arrests you for a criminal act, and now you need a defense. Hard to insure that.

So it's a matter of risk tolerance and what your level of risk is, and what it costs to reduce the risk.

And, yes, you can insure against guys without insurance, if you wish.
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Old 09-10-2016, 12:43 PM   #54
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So it's a matter of risk tolerance and what your level of risk is, and what it costs to reduce the risk.

And, yes, you can insure against guys without insurance, if you wish.
Yes, but I shouldn't have to insure against those with no liability and shouldn't have to pay more because they don't pay their share. Look at what uninsured motorists have done to your auto insurance, if you have it.

I've never had an accident that was my fault. Lucky in that respect. However, I've been glad to have my insurer insisting on their insurer paying what they should. And, I have had several claims where my car was parked and run into resulting in significant damage, all when I was under 21 years old, all hit and run, although two of the four were subsequently caught.
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Old 09-10-2016, 01:11 PM   #55
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To think a second head is required as a "spare " boggles my mind , but could be stowed under a bunk.
When I spec'd my boat, I wanted complete redundancy of all mission critical systems. I wasn't 100% successful (only have one hull), but having lost all of my heads when the holding tank pump failed, I included head redundancy as mission critical. On this boat, one of my four heads is completely independent of and redundant to the other three -- separate holding tank, pumps, etc.
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Old 09-10-2016, 02:28 PM   #56
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When I spec'd my boat, I wanted complete redundancy of all mission critical systems. I wasn't 100% successful (only have one hull), but having lost all of my heads when the holding tank pump failed, I included head redundancy as mission critical. On this boat, one of my four heads is completely independent of and redundant to the other three -- separate holding tank, pumps, etc.
MY,

That's a good thought... when you have a spare, it can be just a minor inconvenience rather than a disaster. Especially with a head and the Admiral needs it.

One could argue a second engine, too. I lost one just as I was backing out of a crowded marina, with wind and current. I just powered up the remaining engine and was only an inconvenience. It would have been a disaster without that and no time to anchor. I've been on friends boats in similar situations. Now the diesel is much more reliable..... however, my buddy lost his diesel just two days ago and had to get a tow, but it was the first time in ~30 years, so not a bad bet.

What other critical things need backups.... battery, GPS, generator, anchor, starter, water supply, fridge, most of which are easy to backup.

Good thoughts, thx.
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Old 09-10-2016, 02:38 PM   #57
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Another question...

There's are a few sites that say you need a boat that needs a bridge clearance of less than 19 feet. Yet most boats with any kind of flybridge seem to get pretty close or over that. The Chicago river has a bridge that requires 19'1" of air. Are there a lot of critical bridges to get under?

Just looking at the early 36 ft Grand Banks and they are 23 feet of air. Do those poles, with the dingy winch lower for bridges easily?

Suspect lowering the bimini tops would be easy, but the pole look a bit harder. And the ones with a radar arch look next to impossible.
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Old 09-10-2016, 02:46 PM   #58
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Towing ins is dirt cheap. Breakdown or grounding and u have paid for years of it. They will even pull u from ur slip to a repair or haul facility at no additional cost
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Old 09-10-2016, 02:47 PM   #59
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Yes, but I shouldn't have to insure against those with no liability and shouldn't have to pay more because they don't pay their share. Look at what uninsured motorists have done to your auto insurance, if you have it.

I've never had an accident that was my fault. Lucky in that respect. However, I've been glad to have my insurer insisting on their insurer paying what they should. And, I have had several claims where my car was parked and run into resulting in significant damage, all when I was under 21 years old, all hit and run, although two of the four were subsequently caught.
BandB,

We have a different view on protection, but that's fine. I'm betting that I'm not going to need insurance. If I'm found negligent and hurt someone else, I'll write the check, but I'm sure you know there's tons of folks out there that can't and won't protect you for their negligence. That's life. I choose to live a life where my risk is really low.

There are people that choose high risk lives and end up in a scrape many times, accidents, fights, trouble with the law, etc., etc. And there are others that choose low risk lives, and have a change of getting thru life without an issues with a 99.99% chance, and that's the group I choose to be in. So far, batting 100 and betting on it staying that way.

Most people are WAY over insured.
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Old 09-10-2016, 09:44 PM   #60
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Towing ins is dirt cheap. Breakdown or grounding and u have paid for years of it. They will even pull u from ur slip to a repair or haul facility at no additional cost

Well, it's $150 a year and I had it for 5 years and never needed it. Those premiums would have easily paid for a tow.

Now, when you have a break down, and you have cash for a tow, vs. someone who has already paid for insurance, who do you think they cater to first?

I've had friend with insurance that have waited FOUR hours for the tow boat after they towed the guys who had cash in their pocket. If they don't grab the cash guy, the competitor will.

Food for thought.
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