Boat Owner or Yacht Club at fault?

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So we took ASD to a local yacht club for their annual St. Patty's day celebration. Water is high on the Columbia, heavy current and lots of trash in the river.

We parked outside the club house as we do every year, except I was sided tided. No big deal, as I always have moored here and folks have side tied to me.

So the yacht club has a dock master. A 40 Tolly Craft tied up directing ahead of me to the end dock. He told the dock master he wanted to temporarily park there until his friends arrived and then he would move. In the mean time a 60ft Hatteras arrived and the Tolly didn't want to move, so the dock mater had him side tie to the Tolly.

The next morning, Saturday, I and the owner of the boat I was side tied to, approached the yacht club's dock master and voiced our opinion that we did not like having the 60 footer tied to the 40 footer directly in front of us. Dock master told us we would be OK and not to worry about it.

That night as the party is going on, the live band playing, I am outside and as I am looking toward the river, I can't believe my eyes! The Hatteras is leaving! Then my stomach fell into my big toe, as I see the Tolly craft still tied to the Hatteras. The current caught the bow of the 60 footer and the forward third slams into my bow pulpit! The crunching sound was bad. I am running down the dock hitting the windows as I am running down the dock. I jump on the first boat and then my boat. My anchor was lodged into his side, then move up, snaps a railing stantion on the Hat while my railing is sitting on his bow. Man I was pissed!!!!

So damage wise it isn't so bad as it appears. He broke a piece of Teflon wrapped around the pulpit and some gel-coat damage. Popped 3 screws on my railing. Busted my flag pole with the Canadian Ensign with a cover. I am having the boat hauled out on Friday, where I plan to lower the anchor and take all the weight off and then see if there is any further damage.

If there is significant damage to my bow pulpit, I plan to hold the yacht club responsible. Thoughts?

 

[psneeld]

Not sure the yacht club was at fault as they didn't do anything I haven't seen before or would recommend....

That said, why was the 60 footer still tied to anything when departing?.....sounds like the error was there....but I don't have enough details....

 

[ddalme]

Call your insurance people and let them handle it. That is, if you have coverage. If you don't want to file a claim, I'd talk to the owners of the boat that hit you. No use causing a disturbance with the dock master/yacht club. Hopefully, it can be remedied thru the boat owner/insurance.
Dockmasters have long memories.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Looks like the 60 did a mistake. The guy decide to depart and hit you, don't see the yacht club fault here.
On your picture, 3rd one, there is a black line is it a split in your bow pulpit?

L.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Yes I have insurance. The Tolly was tied to the cleats on the dock and the cleats let go. The reason I am thinking the club is responsible because, even after we voiced an alert, the club refused to tell the Tolly to move. Too much strain on the cleats....

 

[twistedtree]

Not sure the yacht club was at fault as they didn't do anything I haven't seen before or would recommend....

That said, why was the 60 footer still tied to anything when departing?.....sounds like the error was there....but I don't have enough details....

I think the 60 footer "departed" because the 40 footer's lines broke from the strain of the two boats. At least that's how I'm understanding it.

I think I would call my insurance company and let them sort it out. They can go after whoever they want.

That said, each skipper, and nobody else, is responsible for their boat. The Hat broke free, and that's it's skipper's responsibility. That boat came down on you and did damage. Why it broke free isn't your worry. So I would only focus on the boat that hit you..

He tied up to the 40 footer and relied on it to hold, so he might try to go after the 40 footer, but heck, he decided/accepted tying to it. and probably shouldn't have.

 

[koliver]

Tom: "The Hatteras is leaving! Then my stomach fell into my big toe, as I see the Tolly craft still tied to the Hatteras. The current caught the bow of the 60 footer and the forward third slams into my bow pulpit! "

My interpretation of the quote is that neither boat was leaving intentionally, but the current/wind/debris had been too much for the Tolly's moorings.

As a guest at the YC marina, you very likely have assumed liability for all risks. Unless you can show gross negligence on the part of a YC employee - impossible - this is between you and the negligent Hatt, having failed to stay where he was, and the negligent Tolly, having failed to stay put.

My own first reaction would be to talk with the other 2 boaters, see if either will step up, then fix it myself. If either steps up, send them your invoices. If not, be sure to tie as far from them as possible in the future.

 

[Benthic2]

hmmm.... is this going to devolve into which type of anchor would have done more damage to the Hatteras ??

 

[psneeld]

Oooops...didn't read between the lines...if the cleats pulled out, then yes the marina could have some liability if the Hatteras was not doing anything but sitting.

I go with notify your insurance company and let them handle it.

Chances are they would get involved somehow....and would like to know anyway.

 

[twistedtree]

Yes I have insurance. The Tolly was tied to the cleats on the dock and the cleats let go. The reason I am thinking the club is responsible because, even after we voiced an alert, the club refused to tell the Tolly to move. Too much strain on the cleats....

I think that's between the Tolly owner and the yacht club.

What you have is a classic chain of events. I agree that the club is part of the chain, but all you need to worry about it your link, and that's the Hat that hit you. The Hat's grip will be with some combination of the Tolly owner and the club. And the club and Tolly owner will probably point fingers at each other.

But when you look at it considering that each skipper is responsible for his boat, you could say the Hat owner made a mistake by agreeing to tie to the 40 footer, and that the 40 footer made a mistake by allowing the Hat to side tie.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

To be clear, the 60ft Hatteras and the 40ft Tolly ripped the cleats out of the dock
The Hatteras was NOT departing. The captain and his wife were asleep...

 

[Lou_tribal]

What about the manufacturer of the screw used to fix the cleat or the sawmill that provided the lumber the cleat was screwed on?
Ok I know it is not funny

 

[Cottontop]

You and the boat to which you were tied apparently recognized the potential problem. Maybe you should have moved. You say you were pissed. Maybe you were pissed at you. Not what you want to hear, I know.

 

[Insequent]

To me the Hatt owner is primarily responsible, as he overloaded the mooring capacity. The straw that broke the camel's back. Having said that, the Tolly owner contributed by over-staying and being uncooperative. 'Waiting for friends' seems to have been a ruse to get a spot at the dock. He extended his stay to over 24 hours by your description.

It seems the dockmaster was a bit too passive, not wanting to upset anyone. He ought to have given more thought to your concerns. Chances are he has no real experience, just someone at the Yacht Club acting as a parking attendant.

You saw the risk, and knowing that I don't know how you managed to sleep the first night. Although it might not be as convenient I think I would sleep better by anchoring and taking the tender to the Yacht Club.

 

[Nightsky]

Good thing you let the dockmaster know of your concerns about the Hatt side tying to the Tolly. Almost as if you could see an accident waiting to happen. Prudent to let your insurance know, maybe file a claim. You don't have to act on it if you, the YC and the other owners can come to a reasonable settlement.

 

[JimTid]

I was an insurance adjuster for 22 years. I handled auto and motorcycle claims. I did not handle marine claims. If this happened to me I would gather as much evidence and information as possible. Pictures, diagram, names and contact information of parties involved and witnesses. I would file a claim with my own insurance company. I would pay my deductible to the repair facility and my insurance company would pay the remainder. Your insurance company will sort out liability. They will try to subrogate against the at fault party (s). They may be able to collect all or part of their expenses and your deductible. I expected there will be a lot of finger pointing and denial of fault. It is not uncommon for some or all parties involved to be unhappy with the final resolution.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

You and the boat to which you were tied apparently recognized the potential problem. Maybe you should have moved. You say you were pissed. Maybe you were pissed at you. Not what you want to hear, I know.

As stated above, we let the club know about our concerns
I was pissed after the incident
I was pissed because we notified the club of a possible mishap, yet they took no action.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

It may come down to an insurance claim.

We left early the next morning as he was pinned against the dock with the current. Good thing too. When he was leaving he took a line from his windlass to a post on his stbd, up river. I guess he thought he could winch hos bow up enough to get him stated. He started to motor up attempting to put some slack in the line. He throttled up more, sucked in a lod and there pieces of wood fling everywhere. Frustrated he applied full throttle, snapped the cabe and part of the dock flew into the bow, nicking his wofe as she hit the deck. Would have killed her if she was standing. As he is leavind he tore up the club's dock. Had I not left early he would have done major damage to me.

 

[BruceK]

On that information,I`d say the Yacht Club and its Dockmaster are responsible. They managed and directed the docking of the vessels. Neither the Tolly nor the Hatt could know or reasonably assess the strength of the dock attachment points. The Yacht Club is in possession and control of the dock, would be taken as knowing the strength and condition of the dock facilities, and has a duty to dock users, especially paying users,to dock boats in a safe and secure manner. That the dock attachment failed, presumably in the absence of unusual weather or other events, likely speaks for itself, suggesting the YC got it wrong.The dock could not withstand the load the YC, by its Dockmaster, imposed on it when he directed the docking positions.The YC was controlling the docking and location of vessels, it is responsible for that and what flows from it.
The contract if any between boats and YC could be relevant.
I don`t see the concern you raised with the Dockmaster as related to what happened, just a general concern really.
Whether ASD claims on insurance or elects to deal with YC direct is up to ASD. If the latter, at least lodge a report.
I`m here, you`re there, laws differ, I`m retired, I hope the above is a good guess but that`s about what it is.

 

[GFC]

Tom, just an fyi, the language in your insurance policy may state that you have an obligation to notify them if your boat is involved in an accident, whether you file a claim with them or not.


I think you may have a hard time pressing a claim against the YC. As was mentioned above if you docked there you assumed some liability. As to the Tolly, he should have known better than to let the Hatt side tie to him. He also should have doubled up his lines to secure against that extra load. That wouldn't have helped if the dock cleats pulled out unless he had added extra lines to extra cleats to spread the load.


Me? I'd get a team of drunken leprechauns to represent me in all legal proceedings and hope a pot of gold (and some Klondike Bars) come my way. In looking at the photos above, I'm betting we have an argument going on soon about your anchor!


Good luck with this mess. I'd let your insurance company foot the bill and subrogate against others. You may also have to sue to get your deductible back unless your insurance company gets it for you.

 

[O C Diver]

I would contact the owner of the Hatteras after you have a rough estimate of damages, and ask him if he would like to handle this without involving his insurance company. After all his boat broke free and hit yours. Nothing else matters.

If he declines, contact your insurance company and tell them the Hatteras broke free from where it was docked and struck your boat where it was docked. Nothing else is relevant. Answer your insurance company's questions, but don't offer unsolicited information. This is one of those situations where additional information can't benefit your outcome and could hurt you down the road.

If I were the insurance company and read the original post, I might ask, "Since you recognized that your boat was in a potentially dangerous situation, and nobody else was willing to rectify that situation, why did you ignore it by not moving your vessel?"

Ted

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Me? I'd get a team of drunken leprechauns to represent me in all legal proceedings and hope a pot of gold (and some Klondike Bars) come my way. In looking at the photos above, I'm betting we have an argument going on soon about your anchor!

There is the answer sir! Klondike bars and drunken leprechauns ?

 

[ksanders]

First, as others have indicated run this through your insurance company. They will take care of you.

Just me making a armchair analysis here's how I see it from the details provided.

You gotta not think of who hit you, so much as you gotta think about negligence. Just because someone's boat hits your boat does not mean they are negligent. I know it sounds that way, but it really isn't.

The Hatteras side tied to the tollycraft. Was he negligent in doing so? Maybe yes, maybe no. First he tied to a much smaller boat, that might be a bit negligent. Did he make sure based on the currents that he was tying securely? Is he negligent because he did not check how the tolly was tied to the dock and check the strength of the cleats?

The Tolly owner tied to the dock, and the cleats came loose. Does that make the Tolly owner negligent? Should he have checked the cleats better? He could argue that he just tied his boat to the dock, and the cleats would have held fine if the Hatteras would not have put additional strain on them.

Is the owner of the dock negligent? Did he not maintain his cleats properly? Were they undersized for the anticipated loads? Did he take into account that people would be "rafting" boats together when he built the dock?

Was the YC "master" that directed the Hatteras to raft to the tolly negligent? Did he assume that the cleats would hold? Did he check the cleats? Did he direct the Tolly owner to use extra cleats because of the increased loads anticipated due to the rafting of boats together.

You see... Negligence in this situation is pretty difficult to determine. Your insurance company might try to subrogate to the other owners, but being as they all seem to have suffered some damage, and being how difficult it will be to apply negligence, they will probably just pay your claim and be done with it.

 

[markpierce]

I'd hope my insurance company would assist in recovering the $5000 deductible of my policy. If not, small claims court would be plan B.

 

[dhmeissner]

It may come down to an insurance claim.

We left early the next morning as he was pinned against the dock with the current. Good thing too. When he was leaving he took a line from his windlass to a post on his stbd, up river. I guess he thought he could winch hos bow up enough to get him stated. He started to motor up attempting to put some slack in the line. He throttled up more, sucked in a lod and there pieces of wood fling everywhere. Frustrated he applied full throttle, snapped the cabe and part of the dock flew into the bow, nicking his wofe as she hit the deck. Would have killed her if she was standing. As he is leavind he tore up the club's dock. Had I not left early he would have done major damage to me.

He sounds like a real menace.

But the day before when the dock cleats ripped out, how did the two boats not take off down the river?

 

[BandB]

Immediately contact your insurer. Even if someone else says they'll take care of it. All the time people promise to do so, then don't, and you're on the hook for never reporting it. If you report it and don't ultimately end up making a claim, then great. Get all information on the other boats and obtain their insurance, although might be late for that unless yacht club has the information.

Now, who was at fault. You, both other boats and the yacht club. Probably the only one though that can escape liability is the yacht club depending on your dockage contract. Normally they're written well enough to protect them from everything involving other boats. The only reason they might not be able to escape liability is that you told them of the problem and they failed to respond. That can turn poor management into negligence. However, I'd leave all the legal aspects of it to your insurer, just provide them with all information. In addition to compensating you for damage, another thing insurers often do is protect your interest. They do so because it benefits them, but still it is help.

Your lesson, a difficult one, to trust your instincts and take action if not comfortable even if it makes you have to be a bad guy. That means when the Tolly overstays a few hours, you go back to the dockmaster, If he won't remedy it, you ask for your money back and depart. I see people regularly accept bad slip assignments and acting as if the dockmaster is god, which some think they are. Someone who knows that getting in and out of their slip with their boat without damage is extremely problematic. Someone else takes a slip or dock where they know that their draft is really too close to the depth for comfort. We have approached a marina and, in spite of previous agreement, they were trying to put us on the end dock in a shallow area. The side tie area we'd been promised had a small boat docked with about half our draft. We turned around to leave and about five minutes later got a call back from the dockmaster asking us to return, which we did.

There are marinas that raft all the time and have extremely heavy duty cleats, many extra cleats, and always arrange the largest closest to the dock, even if it means moving some boats around. They also observe the rafting to make sure everyone has tied to their satisfaction. Then I know others that are helter skelter and they just randomly place boats as they come in and no part of their dock is designed to handle the boats.

Dockmasters often have difficult jobs but they have responsibilities as well. Whether legally liable or not, the one in this case failed to do their job. I've seen some incredible dockmasters who carefully inspected how every boat on the transient dock tied.

We all hate to make waves at marinas or in anchorages, but unfortunately we sometimes have to as others are irresponsible. Who here hasn't had someone start to anchor too close. We don't anchor much but have certainly encountered that. Half the time you could politely tell them and they'd move a bit before anchoring. The other half we've had to move. Makes you angry to have to move because of what someone else did, but better than taking the risk.

 

[markpierce]

Our local Army Corps of Engineers have been collecting dozen of tons of flotsam daily from the San Francisco Bay/Delta this season.

 

[C lectric]

Sorry to hear you got hit.

First thing is report what happened to your insurance company, first thing. Do not wait. Do not at this time try to assign blame no matter how you feel. Do only the work needed to ensure the safety of the boat and any people. Screw this up and any future possibility of reimbursement may be in question.

I understand you being annoyed/mad and upset but do not let that sway you from the most important action, reporting the problem.

As already said let the insurance companies hammer out who is responsible and to what degree.

Once reported and the process started I'm sure the ins. co. will have questions so they can sort out who pays what.


Three years ago my boat got hit. The boat was still safe to operate so I did the patch work needed to get home but even then I emailed the ins. co. that a collision occurred. Once home they sent an adjuster to inspect the damage and make a report to the ins. co. No problem with the claim.

First order of business is to ensure you are protected.

 

[Crusty Chief]

Gonna have a few more cocktails and sort this out. Went out and checked the cleats on the concrete dock this afternoon, they seem to be solid and in good condition. Good to go, and now I'm almost out of ice. Good thing the ice maker is working fine.
Suggest you have a couple stiff ones and call the insurance, let them sort it out.
We will try and come down to see ya next weekend while your in the yard, need me to bring anything?

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

He sounds like a real menace.

But the day before when the dock cleats ripped out, how did the two boats not take off down the river?

The bow of the Hat hit us while the rest of the boat was pinned against the club house.