Boat overturns in Cape Cod Canal

[psneeld]

I too think it was less than the 24 foot model based on the videos, but just a guess.

If it was a 24, then yes I have see it sitting 12 people as you can sit 8 to 9 small children in the bow.....as long as they are small kids, thus my earlier question.

As to court, I think most have passed judgement on a not too infrequent occurance, this one just had a bad outcome. Something that society has done a lousy job of discouraging.

 

[BandB]

I too think it was less than the 24 foot model based on the videos, but just a guess.

If it was a 24, then yes I have see it sitting 12 people as you can sit 8 to 9 small children in the bow.....as long as they are small kids, thus my earlier question.

As to court, I think most have passed judgement on a not too infrequent occurance, this one just had a bad outcome. Something that society has done a lousy job of discouraging.

Looked smaller to me too. Eight or nine small kids in the bow just horrifies me and I've seen it 24-25' bowriders. I was very fearful one was just going to fall overboard and concerned because no adult was in the bow. It was a very rough Sunday afternoon. They were screaming in delight as every wave bounced them and all we thought was how quickly that could change. We tried to discreetly keep an eye on them thinking any moment we might be picking them out of the water. I'm sure you've done it many times. I've picked people out of the water only twice and no serious injuries either time. One was two boats collided late one afternoon near our house on the lake. There were 21 passengers total. Biggest problem was accounting for them all. You don't know how many you're looking for when you start and then four of us were picking them out. Everyone tossed from both boats and no one wearing a life jacket.

I know overloading of boats is a real problem. Sometimes kids. Sometimes partiers. I always look at how many I can safely sit, which in my experience has always been less than the plate. I have a 12' 6" RIB that says capacity of 6. There is no way to safely get 6 on it. That either puts one ribbing on a side sponson or one sitting in the floor.

I'm sure some of your career has had incredible rewards when you could rescue someone and awful frustration when you were not able to rescue one and the cause was just lousy irresponsible judgement.

 

[psneeld]

Actually not.

Pretty early on I became hard.

A loss of close family member started it.

The service and rescue business cemented it. But the real cause was the world is full of injustice and misery and much of it is from bad judgement.

I decided that the world shouldnt have the ability to affect my life, so I dont let it.

Like Kevin Costner said in The Guardian movie when asked if there is too many to save...and I believe his response was something like "the rest, you've got to let go. ... And the sea takes the rest. .... I swim as fast and as hard as I can, for as long as I can."

 

[Capecodder]

https://wareham-ma.villagesoup.com/...lace-right-time/1672098?source=DailyHeadlines

 

[Capecodder]

From the local Wareham Harbormaster
"Just some clarification regarding Wednesday's incident. There is some old information going around and comments being made from the initial report regarding the vessels actual size, the vessel is approximately 24' not 18'.

We are asking you to please not jump to conclusions that the adults onboard were neglectful. This is under investigation and the Massachusetts Environmental Police and they take their investigation very seriously, the investigation will determine the facts.

For any of you that have navigated this waterway you know how the conditions can be in Hog Island Channel and how they can change.

Thank you for your understanding."

 

[Benthic2]

There are thousands of boats in that area. All but 1 of them managed to stay right side up that day. I'm not willing to let the skipper off the hook because conditions can change quickly or the investigation is complete. He almost got a kid killed because he couldn't keep his boat right side up. He was in enough trouble and it was so obvious that someone else called the Coast Guard before he did !! The risks are too high to just say "oh well..these things happen...nothing we can do about it". People should be held accountable for their decisions and actions.

 

[Northern Spy]

People should be held accountable for their decisions and actions.

They should be and likely will be held accountable, but by the authorities after information is validated.

These internet RCFIs really don't have much value.

 

[psneeld]

They should be and likely will be held accountable, but by the authorities after information is validated.

These internet RCFIs really don't have much value.

I have always found that those quickest to judge have been the farthest from the hot seat.

One thing to comment on pretty well defined facts, but gross generalizations and speculations?

Glad I survived my career.

 

[dhays]

Good point by psneed. I've never boated in those waters. I've never operated a 24' open bow boat. My closest experience is only a 16' open bow boat on Puget Sound. Easy to avoid really rough water with a boat like that here.

So I've never "been in the hot seat" and as such would withhold any opinions on what may have gone wrong. However, just the fact that the boat appeared to be swamped and then capsized seems to be clear evidence on its face that the boat was operated in a condition and in a manner and in a location that it shouldn't have been. If not, it wouldn't have capsized.

That doesn't mean that it was necessarily the fault of the operator. There can always be situations and conditions that would be unforeseen to even the most cautious operator. However, those seem to be to be the very rare situation.

Much like many auto accidents are the result of "speed in excess for conditions", it isn't necessarily that the boat had too many, or the seas were too rough, the speed too fast, etc... but the combination of the above was the problem.

 

[psneeld]

I have operated on the thin line between normal ops and catatrophe since 1979. With a few short breaks of down time. It has been mostly in jobs that didnt have the luxury of OSHA behind every move.

The one interesting thing about many boating accidents I have been involved with those 40 plus years, they happened in an instant. No long chain of events directly concerning the operator. Sure, the accident chain was long, but because of a tiny lack of a moments inattention by an operator became the focus.

I will bet many here have heard the expression "but by the grace of god go I"...... I have, bet others have too....and lived it.

Unless something more has officially been released that I havent seen yet, we have no idea whether this was an accident waiting to happen, or a moments inattention.

Heck, do we even know if the steering went out, went hard over and rolled the boat?

 

[diver dave]

they happened in an instant.

Heck, do we even know if the steering went out, went hard over and rolled the boat?

I can count on about two fingers the times I've been out in a bowrider style boat. One was notable, and I apologize if I've told this story to this crowd before.
It was a nice, sunny, breezy day and 3 of us went wakeboarding in a protected area. Single OB, about 18' rental boat. After a couple pleasant hours of fun, the BIL wanted to "see" the ocean. I had mistakenly convinced myself that the BIL would turn around before the point of no return. He didn't. At that point, I put on my ski vest. The SIL justed looked at me kinda quizically. We hit the first 4 to 6' standing wave in the inlet; wave 1 flooded the boat, sending my wakeboard out, never seen by me again. Wave 2 nearly broached us and put us sideways. At that point, the BIL had enough and jumped away from the drivers position and said "it's yours". Wave 3 hit just as I sat at the helm and this one killed the only engine. We were now drifting out into the ocean against a field of angry swells, in a POS rental boat. I got a restart just in time to present our now very heavy boat's stern to wave 4. It completely went thru the boat, in the stern, out the bow. Engine quit at least 4 times in the next few minutes. Turned out this OB has a tilt kill switch that kills the engine if it thinks it is trimmed too far up. THANKS NOT! I called for the anchor and somehow we got that deployed. This gave us time to drain out a ton of water and light up the OB once more. We did, and somehow kept it together all the way to the rental dock. The boat was as wet with salt water as I've seen any boat short of a SUP. The rental guy just wanted to see the prop, to see if it was dinged. Inspection over, we went home.

 

[Cigatoo]

"The trick, I later learned, is to turn out of the main channel immediately past Mashnee Island and cut over to the other channel to the SE. That gets you out of the heavy current flow."

But it's still a hellava ride from the Mass Maritime Academy to Mashnee

 

[Simi 60]

"Somebody needs to go to jail for willful reckless endangerment of minors."

What is frightening is not how ignorant some folks are ,,more frightening is they can VOTE!

And breed.

 

[MacDuff]

"The trick, I later learned, is to turn out of the main channel immediately past Mashnee Island and cut over to the other channel to the SE. That gets you out of the heavy current flow."

But it's still a hellava ride from the Mass Maritime Academy to Mashnee

Yup, that works most of the time down there, but low tide can make that tricky as well. I've pulled into Pocasset a few times to get out of it.

 

[Benthic2]

Anyone who has operated a boat has been in the "hotseat". You constantly evaluate conditions, and sometimes you get to the end of the breakwater and you turn back. Sometimes you don't even untie the lines.

I've been in that area a few times and seen what its like. I was in a 26' sailboat that got knocked down there, and I've run a small bowrider (17 footer ) in the ocean with kids on board.

On a large, enclosed boat the go back/go on decision is often times a matter of comfort more than safety. In a small open boat that decision is a life and death decision. A bad call doesn't just mean you get beat up a bit and have to pick up all the dishes off the galley floor. It means you get swamped and people can die. With stakes that high you have to allow for a very large safety margin.

Sure....I may be rushing to judgement without all the facts....but if the kid doesn't make it, I think the driver of the boat should be charged with vehicular homicide.

How would you feel if I just dropped your kid off during a snowstorm and he started telling you how I spun the car around on the highway a few times? This is the same thing...except the kid didn't go home...he went to the hosptial.

 

[Benthic2]

Update: The boat is now a 23 foot boat and the child who was unresponsive was airlifted to a hosptial in Boston and is "being monitored"

 

[twistedtree]

"The trick, I later learned, is to turn out of the main channel immediately past Mashnee Island and cut over to the other channel to the SE. That gets you out of the heavy current flow."

But it's still a hellava ride from the Mass Maritime Academy to Mashnee

Yes, but much shorter than the whole ride where there is no exit and no option but to proceed forward. It's very shallow on ether side of that channel, so if you don't cut out right at Machnee, you are committed to the whole ride.

 

[psneeld]

When I used the term hot sear, I didnt mean something so mundane as opetating a recreational vessel in reasonable conditions and screwing up.

What I meant is going before a professional review board bent on crucifying you for breaking some rules while saving peiples lives.

Again, ever see your life flash before your eyes when you think you did well by saving lives yet have a professional board breathing down your neck thinking Fort Leavenworth should be your next assignment?

That is why I am adamant about waiting till the investigation turns over a few facts instead of a bunch of almost expert boaters sit in judgement.

 

[Benthic2]

ahh... I thought you meant the hot seat that the operator of the vessel was in....sorry for the misunderstanding.

I'm not sure the hot seat you are referring to is relevant here. A recreational boater we always have the choice of not going out...where as you don't ( or didn't ) have that option. For a recreational boater the only thing to be gained by going out is enjoyment, so the decision to risk the lives of your passengers for mere pleasure is much more clear cut and easy to make. For those in the rescue business, there is the lives of you and your crew vs the lives of those who need you.....that's a much tougher decision.

 

[psneeld]

Nope.... three swings and a miss.

People who have been in the "hot seat" understand monday morning quarterbacking better than anyone. That's what you are missing.

Till you have even the most remote set of facts in this case, I would love to be the lawyer that comes after you for even speculating in public and possibly altering the real case...remote, but understand the concept.

That might put you on the hot seat along with that captain.

 

[SoWhat]

A recreational boater we always have the choice of not going out...

The operator may have left in the morning with benign conditions and a forecast for light winds. (NOAA forecasts suck) I have seen numerous small craft pulled up to the sandy areas alongside Stony Point Dike. Usually fisherman in 16 ft skiffs.

If you are tubing with kids in a protected area you may not notice deteriorating conditions in the channel. Sometimes it's not a matter of going out, it's a matter of getting back.

I have had the pleasure of watching thunderstorms bear down on me. Not much I could do but hang on. I have been waked by the pro's in Hog Island Channel. Sport fisherman and party boats throwing a six foot wake. If there's traffic behind them you may not be able to turn into it. Hang on.

If your engine sucks a valve on a long final you might land well short of the runway. Pilot error? An investigation may well conclude "Pilot failed to maintain proper airspeed" unless they disassemble the engine which they usually don't do for general aviation accidents.

I'll withhold judgment.

 

[Benthic2]

first of all.....speculating isn't a crime, and lawyers don't come after people.

While I agree that all the facts aren't in....I have enough facts to make my decision. Obviously we have different requirements in that regard.

Fact 1: Someone took a lot of people out in a boat.
Fact 2: They didn't bring them back.

Those facts have been established, and I can think of no situation that will absolve the operator of his responsibility to bring back who he brings out.

I suppose there could be some freakishly rare occurance, like he got rammed by a whale, or a submarine, but we have to deal with reality and what's probable. The conditions were bad and he was in over his head, and I find that inexcusable. If you don't, that's fine. We all get to have different opinions. Its what makes a discussion lively and interesting.

 

[Benthic2]

SoWhat: Have you ever capsized your boat and put a kid in the hospital ? You give great examples of things that can happen, but you are also proof that those things don't have to be catastrophic.

 

[markpierce]

We love to speculate.

But who is going to change their standard operating procedure to avoid same?

 

[psneeld]

My point is no mattet how careful you are, sooner or later in life, something overcomes your best abilities.

If you never get near the edge, probably no big deal.

In the US, we encourage anyone to buy a 24 foot boat, and with the least bit of training...and a big fat safety label that may be telling you that everything will be OK....to go out and have fun. Who dwells on the dangers?

 

[BruceK]

Benthic2, in the interests of justice I suggest you excuse yourself from jury duty.

 

[Benthic2]

This forum would be must less interesting if we all agreed on everything.

 

[Cigatoo]

"From the 2017 Four Winns website: Horizon 260, LOA 24' 4", capacity 13 people. MSRP $90,754."

This boat does not belong on that part of (or maybe any part of Buzzards Bay) My opinion only. Things change very....very quickly in those waters. (I am talking minutes) That boat is not a boat that is designed for sea like conditions but rather small lake conditions on a sunny calm afternoon. As far as the passenger capacity is concerned, that is always up to the (hopefully competent)skipper. I can promise you that 6 people in that boat is too many in a mill pond. Unfortunately inexperienced people look at USCG capacity ratings and assume them to be carved in stone. They can thank their lucky stars that a Tug / Barge or the like was not passing thru at the same time to complicate things.

 

[psneeld]

Yep, not suitable for more than a couple people and only flat water...... seriously?

I guess I boat in a completely different world......how is the bow of this bowrider any more susceptible to waves over the bow than a center console many here would ohhh and ahhh over as a great offshore fishing boat? Seriously.....

From.... Bowrider Buyers Guide | Discover Boating

Close cousins of deck boats, bowriders have hulls with a little more V-shape and come to a point at the bow. That helps them turn a bit sharper, especially at higher speeds, and handle rough water better.

 

[Cigatoo]

The boat in that picture could see conditions change from what's in the picture to taking lots of green water over the bow in a matter of minutes at the west end of the canal. The seas can easily be 4-8 feet and very steep with very little space in between (like a washing machine as stated by others) I have seen it many times. All of Buzzards Bay can turn treacherous for small craft with a 15knt wind and opposing tidal current. And there will be no mention of Small craft warnings in this area as these conditions are to be expected on most "Blue Bird Days".