Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-27-2017, 03:58 PM   #21
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 15,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-mm-55 View Post
18' boat crazy, news reports say a 24' Four Winns...this is how witch hunts begin.
Still overloaded.
__________________
Advertisement

BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2017, 04:38 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
City: Boston
Country: US
Vessel Model: IG 30
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDuff View Post
Obviously overloaded, inexperienced operator in a very dangerous stretch of water. Over my many years on Cape Cod waterways, I have found that the area where this occurred is hands down the most dangerous I've ever encountered. A combination of the Cape Cod Canal flowing into Buzzards Bay at 6-8 knots against a strong late afternoon SW wind can kick up 6+ feet waves with a very short period between each. Nasty stuff in small vessels. You must time your passing through the SW end of the canal very carefully. And of course never overload your boat.
Where CCC meets Buzzards Bay is called the "washing machine" for a reason.
__________________

SoWhat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2017, 09:08 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
porman's Avatar
 
City: Duvall, Wa
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beach Music II
Vessel Model: 2003 Mainship 430 Trawler
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 366
From the 2017 Four Winns website: Horizon 260, LOA 24' 4", capacity 13 people. MSRP $90,754.
porman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2017, 09:34 PM   #24
Guru
 
Benthic2's Avatar
 
City: Boston Area
Country: United States
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,273
I think the fact that he capsized is sufficient proof he was overloaded, regardless of what the capacity plate says.

In the interview with the diver who got the child he said his boat was swamped and he was knee deep in water.

You can blame it on boat design, skipper's skill, overloading....whatever you want, but that skipper should not have been in that place with that boat on that day.
Benthic2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2017, 10:02 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
porman's Avatar
 
City: Duvall, Wa
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beach Music II
Vessel Model: 2003 Mainship 430 Trawler
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 366
I would never put 13 people in that boat. I'm not sure I want 13 people on my boat when under way.
porman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2017, 10:17 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
City: Boston
Country: US
Vessel Model: IG 30
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benthic2 View Post
I think the fact that he capsized is sufficient proof he was overloaded, regardless of what the capacity plate says.
...but that skipper should not have been in that place with that boat on that day.
So the capacity plate is wrong? I'm sure the manufacturer would appreciate your calculations.

The owner kept the boat at Stonebridge Marina in Onset. Onset is just off Hog Island Channel. The boat overturned at Stony Point Dike, a long jetty that parallels Hog Island Channel. Therefore the owner was probably familiar with how quickly local conditions can head south.

Sea conditions were 2-4 ft according to USCG. That's the avg. The area is known for steep frequent confusing whitecaps even on calm days. So he could have been hit with a 6-7 footers and swamped if his trim wasn't right. Could have tried to turn and broached. Sport fisherman or tug could have waked him. It is not a huge channel and there is no speed limit. No one knows what happened yet.

The diver, Mike Margulis from Wareham has a 21' Carolina Skiff. Not surprised it swamped. He followed the harbor master to the site. He wasn't just passing through.

Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.
SoWhat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 02:25 AM   #27
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,975
If you have ever been through there with wind against tide, it's one of the most hair raising places I've ever been in a boat. A strong ebb coming out of the canal flushes down that channel, and the afternoon wind blasts up from buzzards bay. Short, steep, 6-9 footers are not uncommon right in that area. I went thorough in a 30' boat once and was burying the bow into every oncoming wave. Had it been an open boat, it would have swamped.

The trick, I later learned, is to turn out of the main channel immediately past Mashnee Island and cut over to the other channel to the SE. That gets you out of the heavy current flow.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 06:31 AM   #28
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 15,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by porman View Post
From the 2017 Four Winns website: Horizon 260, LOA 24' 4", capacity 13 people. MSRP $90,754.
The plates on small US boats are calculated based on size and are absolute maximums in perfect conditions and also fail to fully take into consideration design factors such as open bow. I owned a 26' Cobalt bowrider, significantly larger than the boat they were in and it's tag showed 14 people. I never had more than 6 people aboard and on a typical lake Sunday I would never have considered more. The Manufacturer is not recommending that number, doesn't determine the number. The largest number of people the 260 can seat decently is 7 and that's with two in the bow. Now, the place you normally see more packed in is the bow and that leads to events like this. The boat is not designed to safely transport that many people and even further short of the ability in the typical seas where it was. Bowriders come with a risk of swamping in those conditions and the more people in the boat, especially more in the bow, the greater the risk.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 06:54 AM   #29
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 18,004
If you are talking capacity plate, it often discusses persons or weight plus gear and if an outboard, the max weight usually includes it.

The passenger list was 3 adults and 9 children. Anyone know their weights and sizes?

Anyone know what actually swamped/overturned the boat?

Good loading, bad loading? Actual overloading? Poor seamanship? Freak combo of wave and wake?

Boating in tidal areas can be tricky as for short periods of the day, certain areas can be very choppy while for miles around can be beautiful boating.

Anyone look up the actual sea conditions for the area, not just where the incident took place and was reported by the media? Video makes it look a lot less than "bad conditions", but I know there could be a strip of much worse water.

Hope this is all available info to be choosing the jury already.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 07:23 AM   #30
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 15,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
If you are talking capacity plate, it often discusses persons or weight plus gear and if an outboard, the max weight usually includes it.

The passenger list was 3 adults and 9 children. Anyone know their weights and sizes?

Anyone know what actually swamped/overturned the boat?

Good loading, bad loading? Actual overloading? Poor seamanship? Freak combo of wave and wake?

Boating in tidal areas can be tricky as for short periods of the day, certain areas can be very choppy while for miles around can be beautiful boating.

Anyone look up the actual sea conditions for the area, not just where the incident took place and was reported by the media? Video makes it look a lot less than "bad conditions", but I know there could be a strip of much worse water.

Hope this is all available info to be choosing the jury already.
Only thing I know for sure and that's assuming the boat is the 260, is the seating layout and design of the boat and I do know I'd personally never carry 3 adults and 9 children of any size or age on that boat, not even on a lake, much less there. Not criminally convicting anyone here just expressing opinion of that boat's reasonable capacity as opposed to the plate. All the rest is tbd. People can feel free to disagree with my opinion on loading of the boat. If you are going to load 3 adults and 9 children, please tell me where you'll have them sit. All other information is to be determined. Obviously initial information is often incorrect as in this case, the size boat. 18' was certainly much worse than 24'.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 07:37 AM   #31
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 18,004
I too think it was less than the 24 foot model based on the videos, but just a guess.

If it was a 24, then yes I have see it sitting 12 people as you can sit 8 to 9 small children in the bow.....as long as they are small kids, thus my earlier question.

As to court, I think most have passed judgement on a not too infrequent occurance, this one just had a bad outcome. Something that society has done a lousy job of discouraging.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 08:07 AM   #32
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 15,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I too think it was less than the 24 foot model based on the videos, but just a guess.

If it was a 24, then yes I have see it sitting 12 people as you can sit 8 to 9 small children in the bow.....as long as they are small kids, thus my earlier question.

As to court, I think most have passed judgement on a not too infrequent occurance, this one just had a bad outcome. Something that society has done a lousy job of discouraging.
Looked smaller to me too. Eight or nine small kids in the bow just horrifies me and I've seen it 24-25' bowriders. I was very fearful one was just going to fall overboard and concerned because no adult was in the bow. It was a very rough Sunday afternoon. They were screaming in delight as every wave bounced them and all we thought was how quickly that could change. We tried to discreetly keep an eye on them thinking any moment we might be picking them out of the water. I'm sure you've done it many times. I've picked people out of the water only twice and no serious injuries either time. One was two boats collided late one afternoon near our house on the lake. There were 21 passengers total. Biggest problem was accounting for them all. You don't know how many you're looking for when you start and then four of us were picking them out. Everyone tossed from both boats and no one wearing a life jacket.

I know overloading of boats is a real problem. Sometimes kids. Sometimes partiers. I always look at how many I can safely sit, which in my experience has always been less than the plate. I have a 12' 6" RIB that says capacity of 6. There is no way to safely get 6 on it. That either puts one ribbing on a side sponson or one sitting in the floor.

I'm sure some of your career has had incredible rewards when you could rescue someone and awful frustration when you were not able to rescue one and the cause was just lousy irresponsible judgement.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 08:20 AM   #33
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 18,004
Actually not.

Pretty early on I became hard.

A loss of close family member started it.

The service and rescue business cemented it. But the real cause was the world is full of injustice and misery and much of it is from bad judgement.

I decided that the world shouldnt have the ability to affect my life, so I dont let it.

Like Kevin Costner said in The Guardian movie when asked if there is too many to save...and I believe his response was something like "the rest, you've got to let go. ... And the sea takes the rest. .... I swim as fast and as hard as I can, for as long as I can."
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 10:03 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
Capecodder's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA or Fort Myers, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Osprey
Vessel Model: Her Shine. Newburyport
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 329
https://wareham-ma.villagesoup.com/p...DailyHeadlines
Capecodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 10:29 AM   #35
Senior Member
 
Capecodder's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA or Fort Myers, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Osprey
Vessel Model: Her Shine. Newburyport
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 329
From the local Wareham Harbormaster
"Just some clarification regarding Wednesday's incident. There is some old information going around and comments being made from the initial report regarding the vessels actual size, the vessel is approximately 24' not 18'.

We are asking you to please not jump to conclusions that the adults onboard were neglectful. This is under investigation and the Massachusetts Environmental Police and they take their investigation very seriously, the investigation will determine the facts.

For any of you that have navigated this waterway you know how the conditions can be in Hog Island Channel and how they can change.

Thank you for your understanding."
Capecodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 11:38 AM   #36
Guru
 
Benthic2's Avatar
 
City: Boston Area
Country: United States
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,273
There are thousands of boats in that area. All but 1 of them managed to stay right side up that day. I'm not willing to let the skipper off the hook because conditions can change quickly or the investigation is complete. He almost got a kid killed because he couldn't keep his boat right side up. He was in enough trouble and it was so obvious that someone else called the Coast Guard before he did !! The risks are too high to just say "oh well..these things happen...nothing we can do about it". People should be held accountable for their decisions and actions.
Benthic2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 11:59 AM   #37
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benthic2 View Post
People should be held accountable for their decisions and actions.
They should be and likely will be held accountable, but by the authorities after information is validated.

These internet RCFIs really don't have much value.
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 12:36 PM   #38
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 18,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
They should be and likely will be held accountable, but by the authorities after information is validated.

These internet RCFIs really don't have much value.


I have always found that those quickest to judge have been the farthest from the hot seat.

One thing to comment on pretty well defined facts, but gross generalizations and speculations?

Glad I survived my career.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 12:58 PM   #39
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 7,155
Good point by psneed. I've never boated in those waters. I've never operated a 24' open bow boat. My closest experience is only a 16' open bow boat on Puget Sound. Easy to avoid really rough water with a boat like that here.

So I've never "been in the hot seat" and as such would withhold any opinions on what may have gone wrong. However, just the fact that the boat appeared to be swamped and then capsized seems to be clear evidence on its face that the boat was operated in a condition and in a manner and in a location that it shouldn't have been. If not, it wouldn't have capsized.

That doesn't mean that it was necessarily the fault of the operator. There can always be situations and conditions that would be unforeseen to even the most cautious operator. However, those seem to be to be the very rare situation.

Much like many auto accidents are the result of "speed in excess for conditions", it isn't necessarily that the boat had too many, or the seas were too rough, the speed too fast, etc... but the combination of the above was the problem.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 01:30 PM   #40
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 18,004
I have operated on the thin line between normal ops and catatrophe since 1979. With a few short breaks of down time. It has been mostly in jobs that didnt have the luxury of OSHA behind every move.

The one interesting thing about many boating accidents I have been involved with those 40 plus years, they happened in an instant. No long chain of events directly concerning the operator. Sure, the accident chain was long, but because of a tiny lack of a moments inattention by an operator became the focus.

I will bet many here have heard the expression "but by the grace of god go I"...... I have, bet others have too....and lived it.

Unless something more has officially been released that I havent seen yet, we have no idea whether this was an accident waiting to happen, or a moments inattention.

Heck, do we even know if the steering went out, went hard over and rolled the boat?
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012