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Old 07-27-2017, 02:58 PM   #21
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18' boat crazy, news reports say a 24' Four Winns...this is how witch hunts begin.
Still overloaded.
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:38 PM   #22
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Obviously overloaded, inexperienced operator in a very dangerous stretch of water. Over my many years on Cape Cod waterways, I have found that the area where this occurred is hands down the most dangerous I've ever encountered. A combination of the Cape Cod Canal flowing into Buzzards Bay at 6-8 knots against a strong late afternoon SW wind can kick up 6+ feet waves with a very short period between each. Nasty stuff in small vessels. You must time your passing through the SW end of the canal very carefully. And of course never overload your boat.
Where CCC meets Buzzards Bay is called the "washing machine" for a reason.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:08 PM   #23
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From the 2017 Four Winns website: Horizon 260, LOA 24' 4", capacity 13 people. MSRP $90,754.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:34 PM   #24
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I think the fact that he capsized is sufficient proof he was overloaded, regardless of what the capacity plate says.

In the interview with the diver who got the child he said his boat was swamped and he was knee deep in water.

You can blame it on boat design, skipper's skill, overloading....whatever you want, but that skipper should not have been in that place with that boat on that day.
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:02 PM   #25
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I would never put 13 people in that boat. I'm not sure I want 13 people on my boat when under way.
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:17 PM   #26
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I think the fact that he capsized is sufficient proof he was overloaded, regardless of what the capacity plate says.
...but that skipper should not have been in that place with that boat on that day.
So the capacity plate is wrong? I'm sure the manufacturer would appreciate your calculations.

The owner kept the boat at Stonebridge Marina in Onset. Onset is just off Hog Island Channel. The boat overturned at Stony Point Dike, a long jetty that parallels Hog Island Channel. Therefore the owner was probably familiar with how quickly local conditions can head south.

Sea conditions were 2-4 ft according to USCG. That's the avg. The area is known for steep frequent confusing whitecaps even on calm days. So he could have been hit with a 6-7 footers and swamped if his trim wasn't right. Could have tried to turn and broached. Sport fisherman or tug could have waked him. It is not a huge channel and there is no speed limit. No one knows what happened yet.

The diver, Mike Margulis from Wareham has a 21' Carolina Skiff. Not surprised it swamped. He followed the harbor master to the site. He wasn't just passing through.

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Old 07-28-2017, 01:25 AM   #27
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If you have ever been through there with wind against tide, it's one of the most hair raising places I've ever been in a boat. A strong ebb coming out of the canal flushes down that channel, and the afternoon wind blasts up from buzzards bay. Short, steep, 6-9 footers are not uncommon right in that area. I went thorough in a 30' boat once and was burying the bow into every oncoming wave. Had it been an open boat, it would have swamped.

The trick, I later learned, is to turn out of the main channel immediately past Mashnee Island and cut over to the other channel to the SE. That gets you out of the heavy current flow.
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Old 07-28-2017, 05:31 AM   #28
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From the 2017 Four Winns website: Horizon 260, LOA 24' 4", capacity 13 people. MSRP $90,754.
The plates on small US boats are calculated based on size and are absolute maximums in perfect conditions and also fail to fully take into consideration design factors such as open bow. I owned a 26' Cobalt bowrider, significantly larger than the boat they were in and it's tag showed 14 people. I never had more than 6 people aboard and on a typical lake Sunday I would never have considered more. The Manufacturer is not recommending that number, doesn't determine the number. The largest number of people the 260 can seat decently is 7 and that's with two in the bow. Now, the place you normally see more packed in is the bow and that leads to events like this. The boat is not designed to safely transport that many people and even further short of the ability in the typical seas where it was. Bowriders come with a risk of swamping in those conditions and the more people in the boat, especially more in the bow, the greater the risk.
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Old 07-28-2017, 05:54 AM   #29
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If you are talking capacity plate, it often discusses persons or weight plus gear and if an outboard, the max weight usually includes it.

The passenger list was 3 adults and 9 children. Anyone know their weights and sizes?

Anyone know what actually swamped/overturned the boat?

Good loading, bad loading? Actual overloading? Poor seamanship? Freak combo of wave and wake?

Boating in tidal areas can be tricky as for short periods of the day, certain areas can be very choppy while for miles around can be beautiful boating.

Anyone look up the actual sea conditions for the area, not just where the incident took place and was reported by the media? Video makes it look a lot less than "bad conditions", but I know there could be a strip of much worse water.

Hope this is all available info to be choosing the jury already.
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Old 07-28-2017, 06:23 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
If you are talking capacity plate, it often discusses persons or weight plus gear and if an outboard, the max weight usually includes it.

The passenger list was 3 adults and 9 children. Anyone know their weights and sizes?

Anyone know what actually swamped/overturned the boat?

Good loading, bad loading? Actual overloading? Poor seamanship? Freak combo of wave and wake?

Boating in tidal areas can be tricky as for short periods of the day, certain areas can be very choppy while for miles around can be beautiful boating.

Anyone look up the actual sea conditions for the area, not just where the incident took place and was reported by the media? Video makes it look a lot less than "bad conditions", but I know there could be a strip of much worse water.

Hope this is all available info to be choosing the jury already.
Only thing I know for sure and that's assuming the boat is the 260, is the seating layout and design of the boat and I do know I'd personally never carry 3 adults and 9 children of any size or age on that boat, not even on a lake, much less there. Not criminally convicting anyone here just expressing opinion of that boat's reasonable capacity as opposed to the plate. All the rest is tbd. People can feel free to disagree with my opinion on loading of the boat. If you are going to load 3 adults and 9 children, please tell me where you'll have them sit. All other information is to be determined. Obviously initial information is often incorrect as in this case, the size boat. 18' was certainly much worse than 24'.
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Old 07-28-2017, 06:37 AM   #31
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I too think it was less than the 24 foot model based on the videos, but just a guess.

If it was a 24, then yes I have see it sitting 12 people as you can sit 8 to 9 small children in the bow.....as long as they are small kids, thus my earlier question.

As to court, I think most have passed judgement on a not too infrequent occurance, this one just had a bad outcome. Something that society has done a lousy job of discouraging.
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:07 AM   #32
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I too think it was less than the 24 foot model based on the videos, but just a guess.

If it was a 24, then yes I have see it sitting 12 people as you can sit 8 to 9 small children in the bow.....as long as they are small kids, thus my earlier question.

As to court, I think most have passed judgement on a not too infrequent occurance, this one just had a bad outcome. Something that society has done a lousy job of discouraging.
Looked smaller to me too. Eight or nine small kids in the bow just horrifies me and I've seen it 24-25' bowriders. I was very fearful one was just going to fall overboard and concerned because no adult was in the bow. It was a very rough Sunday afternoon. They were screaming in delight as every wave bounced them and all we thought was how quickly that could change. We tried to discreetly keep an eye on them thinking any moment we might be picking them out of the water. I'm sure you've done it many times. I've picked people out of the water only twice and no serious injuries either time. One was two boats collided late one afternoon near our house on the lake. There were 21 passengers total. Biggest problem was accounting for them all. You don't know how many you're looking for when you start and then four of us were picking them out. Everyone tossed from both boats and no one wearing a life jacket.

I know overloading of boats is a real problem. Sometimes kids. Sometimes partiers. I always look at how many I can safely sit, which in my experience has always been less than the plate. I have a 12' 6" RIB that says capacity of 6. There is no way to safely get 6 on it. That either puts one ribbing on a side sponson or one sitting in the floor.

I'm sure some of your career has had incredible rewards when you could rescue someone and awful frustration when you were not able to rescue one and the cause was just lousy irresponsible judgement.
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:20 AM   #33
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Actually not.

Pretty early on I became hard.

A loss of close family member started it.

The service and rescue business cemented it. But the real cause was the world is full of injustice and misery and much of it is from bad judgement.

I decided that the world shouldnt have the ability to affect my life, so I dont let it.

Like Kevin Costner said in The Guardian movie when asked if there is too many to save...and I believe his response was something like "the rest, you've got to let go. ... And the sea takes the rest. .... I swim as fast and as hard as I can, for as long as I can."
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:03 AM   #34
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:29 AM   #35
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From the local Wareham Harbormaster
"Just some clarification regarding Wednesday's incident. There is some old information going around and comments being made from the initial report regarding the vessels actual size, the vessel is approximately 24' not 18'.

We are asking you to please not jump to conclusions that the adults onboard were neglectful. This is under investigation and the Massachusetts Environmental Police and they take their investigation very seriously, the investigation will determine the facts.

For any of you that have navigated this waterway you know how the conditions can be in Hog Island Channel and how they can change.

Thank you for your understanding."
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:38 AM   #36
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There are thousands of boats in that area. All but 1 of them managed to stay right side up that day. I'm not willing to let the skipper off the hook because conditions can change quickly or the investigation is complete. He almost got a kid killed because he couldn't keep his boat right side up. He was in enough trouble and it was so obvious that someone else called the Coast Guard before he did !! The risks are too high to just say "oh well..these things happen...nothing we can do about it". People should be held accountable for their decisions and actions.
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:59 AM   #37
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People should be held accountable for their decisions and actions.
They should be and likely will be held accountable, but by the authorities after information is validated.

These internet RCFIs really don't have much value.
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Old 07-28-2017, 11:36 AM   #38
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They should be and likely will be held accountable, but by the authorities after information is validated.

These internet RCFIs really don't have much value.


I have always found that those quickest to judge have been the farthest from the hot seat.

One thing to comment on pretty well defined facts, but gross generalizations and speculations?

Glad I survived my career.
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Old 07-28-2017, 11:58 AM   #39
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Good point by psneed. I've never boated in those waters. I've never operated a 24' open bow boat. My closest experience is only a 16' open bow boat on Puget Sound. Easy to avoid really rough water with a boat like that here.

So I've never "been in the hot seat" and as such would withhold any opinions on what may have gone wrong. However, just the fact that the boat appeared to be swamped and then capsized seems to be clear evidence on its face that the boat was operated in a condition and in a manner and in a location that it shouldn't have been. If not, it wouldn't have capsized.

That doesn't mean that it was necessarily the fault of the operator. There can always be situations and conditions that would be unforeseen to even the most cautious operator. However, those seem to be to be the very rare situation.

Much like many auto accidents are the result of "speed in excess for conditions", it isn't necessarily that the boat had too many, or the seas were too rough, the speed too fast, etc... but the combination of the above was the problem.
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Old 07-28-2017, 12:30 PM   #40
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I have operated on the thin line between normal ops and catatrophe since 1979. With a few short breaks of down time. It has been mostly in jobs that didnt have the luxury of OSHA behind every move.

The one interesting thing about many boating accidents I have been involved with those 40 plus years, they happened in an instant. No long chain of events directly concerning the operator. Sure, the accident chain was long, but because of a tiny lack of a moments inattention by an operator became the focus.

I will bet many here have heard the expression "but by the grace of god go I"...... I have, bet others have too....and lived it.

Unless something more has officially been released that I havent seen yet, we have no idea whether this was an accident waiting to happen, or a moments inattention.

Heck, do we even know if the steering went out, went hard over and rolled the boat?
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