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Old 03-08-2017, 04:30 PM   #41
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Jeez I would never have thought that a comment about a connected washing machine would make such a noise, will add ths to the sensitive subject list just after the anchor
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Old 03-08-2017, 04:34 PM   #42
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Jeez I would never have thought that a comment about a connected washing machine would make such a noise, will add ths to the sensitive subject list just after the anchor
It's not the subject. The subject doesn't matter. This happens whenever I take a position that is contrary to one of the key people here. Just ignore it and hope that someone brings the real subject back like IFTTT which has only been around for 7 years.
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:52 PM   #43
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No, I'm not launching any forum or anything like that.

The "good riddance" though - tell me, are you proud of that? I think that deserves an apology here in public.
Wifey B: So, are you really leaving this time or just promising once again?

You know if you want to leave then just go but all the freaking grandstanding is annoying as h...

Go play with your facebook friends. It don't hurt this tree none if the rotten apple drops off.
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:35 PM   #44
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Wifey B: So, are you really leaving this time or just promising once again?
I like to keep you guessing. It seems to keep you interested that way.
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:03 PM   #45
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The technology of everything being switches on a touch screen is interesting, my MFDs are touch screen. What I'm wondering is what will be the useful life of this stuff? Simply, changing electronics seems to be a routine upgrade sort of like your cell phone, tablet, personal computer and other consumer electronics. Do people that control most things on their boat this way, assume the technology is antiquated in 2, 5, or 7 years. Do you then redo all this stuff and if so, how much of the switching equipment would you expect to change?

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Old 03-08-2017, 11:26 PM   #46
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The technology of everything being switches on a touch screen is interesting, my MFDs are touch screen. What I'm wondering is what will be the useful life of this stuff? Simply, changing electronics seems to be a routine upgrade sort of like your cell phone, tablet, personal computer and other consumer electronics. Do people that control most things on their boat this way, assume the technology is antiquated in 2, 5, or 7 years. Do you then redo all this stuff and if so, how much of the switching equipment would you expect to change?

Ted
It's strictly a wild guess but my guess is that in 2 years you'll still be very happy, in 5 years you'll be aware there is better out there, in 7 years you'll be saying you must change. Understand you're talking about technology oriented people so being a generation behind is painful and being two generations behind is beyond our pain threshold.
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Old 03-09-2017, 06:31 AM   #47
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It's strictly a wild guess but my guess is that in 2 years you'll still be very happy, in 5 years you'll be aware there is better out there, in 7 years you'll be saying you must change. Understand you're talking about technology oriented people so being a generation behind is painful and being two generations behind is beyond our pain threshold.
Guess I'll be staying with my mechanical switches. Changing a light switch for the sake of new technology is beyond my OCD threshold.

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Old 03-09-2017, 06:40 AM   #48
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I like ouch screens a lot like on my tablets and laptop etc But there is something that really annoy me... my big fat greasy fingers that leave a nice greasy trace on the screen! And I spend my time to wipe that screen 3 or 4 times a day to keep it clean.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:07 AM   #49
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Funny. By some odd coincidence, my Active Captain account doesn't work any more. I wonder why that is? I guess it's open to everyone, as long as they don't upset Jeffrey.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:19 AM   #50
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Thinking that the desire is to have the latest and greatest is missing the whole point. It's a common knee-jerk reaction - there's no desire to have newer capabilities so start out nit-picking the reasons why it isn't needed. It always misses the benefits. The washing machine online is the perfect example. Anyone who's done laundry at a busy marina knows that you walk up there only to find all the machines taken. So now you lug everything back or sit and wait. Having the machines tied to your phone isn't to show you the cycle they're on or how much soap is being used. It's to show you when you can walk up and not waste time (if not reserve the machine in advance). It's easy to give one-liner quips about why you don't need things like this. But when you're out there, waiting for the washing machine, it's a nice touch with an immediate, obvious benefit. And for what it's worth, the marina put them in at no cost - just pure benefit to the boaters who had an open mind to the benefits.

Making switches and controls digital with an internet connection can create similar benefits. It you come into the game trying to find ways to shoot it down, you will. But then, why even be a part of the discussion. Does the excitement of someone who's done a pretty interesting thing on their boat require an equal-and-opposite reaction from the those who don't want to spend the money, time, or don't have the ability to make it happen? The work done here should be complemented. I've passed this thread onto the CEO of a company interested in making off-the-shelf products to help with these new capabilities for boats. It's the positive elements of threads like this that advance capabilities. Taking pot shots only ever shows ignorance.

There are a very, very limited set of people on boats who add some electronics because they can, not because they should. The world has moved quite far away from that, especially on boats. Things are put in because of the benefits they provide. Instead of shooting those benefits down, why not really try to understand them. That's how you'll find if they're applicable to you. Perhaps they're not. But perhaps they'll change everything.

It's funny how these were the exact arguments I had in the mid 1990's about showing charts on a screen. "It was done just to be cool." "It's a total waste." Now William, you were probably still in grade school so you don't have a nexus with those days outside the technology of combining peanut butter and jelly into a single jar. But it's those small changes, like charts on a "TV" that changed everything. Without that, you wouldn't be bopping around at 24 kts without a previous lifetime of navigation experience. And all it requires is...an open mind.
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Old 03-09-2017, 07:54 AM   #51
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Thinking that the desire is to have the latest and greatest is missing the whole point. It's a common knee-jerk reaction - there's no desire to have newer capabilities so start out nit-picking the reasons why it isn't needed. It always misses the benefits. The washing machine online is the perfect example. Anyone who's done laundry at a busy marina knows that you walk up there only to find all the machines taken. So now you lug everything back or sit and wait. Having the machines tied to your phone isn't to show you the cycle they're on or how much soap is being used. It's to show you when you can walk up and not waste time (if not reserve the machine in advance). It's easy to give one-liner quips about why you don't need things like this. But when you're out there, waiting for the washing machine, it's a nice touch with an immediate, obvious benefit. And for what it's worth, the marina put them in at no cost - just pure benefit to the boaters who had an open mind to the benefits.

Making switches and controls digital with an internet connection can create similar benefits. It you come into the game trying to find ways to shoot it down, you will. But then, why even be a part of the discussion. Does the excitement of someone who's done a pretty interesting thing on their boat require an equal-and-opposite reaction from the those who don't want to spend the money, time, or don't have the ability to make it happen? The work done here should be complemented. I've passed this thread onto the CEO of a company interested in making off-the-shelf products to help with these new capabilities for boats. It's the positive elements of threads like this that advance capabilities. Taking pot shots only ever shows ignorance.

There are a very, very limited set of people on boats who add some electronics because they can, not because they should. The world has moved quite far away from that, especially on boats. Things are put in because of the benefits they provide. Instead of shooting those benefits down, why not really try to understand them. That's how you'll find if they're applicable to you. Perhaps they're not. But perhaps they'll change everything.

It's funny how these were the exact arguments I had in the mid 1990's about showing charts on a screen. "It was done just to be cool." "It's a total waste." Now William, you were probably still in grade school so you don't have a nexus with those days outside the technology of combining peanut butter and jelly into a single jar. But it's those small changes, like charts on a "TV" that changed everything. Without that, you wouldn't be bopping around at 24 kts without a previous lifetime of navigation experience. And all it requires is...an open mind.
Jeff, not interested in getting into a disagreement with you, just showing a different point of view. Think the technology is interesting. Where I feel we differ is budget. You are blessed to be in the 1 to 5% of this forum where budgeting this level of expense for this technology isn't a consideration. For most of us, cost versus benefit or advantage over the existing system is a real consideration. While having all the technology and required equipment to know whether there is an available washing machine in the marina is cool, for my situation, spending the money on a new dual range radar antenna was more beneficial. Btw, knowing the use status of a washing machine at the marina does me no good if I can't reserve it. My luck has me walking into the laundry room as someone else is loading that previously available machine.

Ted
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:32 AM   #52
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You are blessed to be in the 1 to 5% of this forum where budgeting this level of expense for this technology isn't a consideration.
Umm, no, it has nothing to do with money at all. Even if I had money to burn (and I'm not in the 1% group of any category), I'd still only do things that made sense or saved money. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't be using a needle gun in my engine room to clean up rust and repaint things myself, nearly every day.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:05 AM   #53
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Umm, no, it has nothing to do with money at all. Even if I had money to burn (and I'm not in the 1% group of any category), I'd still only do things that made sense or saved money. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't be using a needle gun in my engine room to clean up rust and repaint things myself, nearly every day.
Think you inadvertently made my point. Many of us choose to embrace new technology based on added benefit relative to cost. Clearly the benefit (time and wear and tear on your body) of having someone else chase your rust, doesn't have enough of a perceived value to you relative to cost. BTW, having read your account of acquiring and refitting your current boat, not to mention your previous boat, maybe not the top 1%, but certainly in the top 5%.

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Old 03-09-2017, 09:19 AM   #54
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I've been seriously considering moving to an N2K based system. My boat electronics are old and I plan to replace them over the coming years. Right now I don't have a wind indicator and I'd like to install one. I was thinking of the Maretron model that sends N2K data (WSO100).

To do this I assumed I'd need to get a Maretron IP Gateway (IPG100) to connect to N2KView on either a computer or a iPad. It sounds like I could use the iKommunicate Gateway to convert to SignalK and then use many of the less expensive compatible software packages available for SignalK. I also have a computer science background, and although no long program for a living I have played with the Raspberry Pi. I could see having some (very inexpensive) fun experimenting with that on the side.

I don't think I want to go as far as the OP on automation and monitoring, but I'd like to get the basic boat functions into N2K: Wind speed, GPS data, depth, engine sensors, fuel flow, tank monitoring, battery state, maybe some other dc/ac power data. What I'm hoping is that once I've made the initial investment it'll be incrementally less expensive to add and configure the next sensor as I decide I want it.

I have a Maretron specific question - their sensors need calibrating and configuring as I understand it. Do I have to purchase the Maretron software to do that? Will I miss out on critical configuration if I go with iKommunicate and SignalK based software?

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Old 03-09-2017, 09:34 AM   #55
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Interesting thread. Delighted to see that someone is using PLC on a boat. Always thought DCS or PLC would make it to recreational boat level. I think there is a market if a company with brand recognition would run with it. I'm just figuring out Arduino, myself., just for fun. Then the thread went to hell for a while. Then Jeff reveals he uses a needle gun. High tech to low tech just like that. Be sure to use anti-vibration gloves. White fingers hurt. Wish I had those back in the day.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:40 AM   #56
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I have a Maretron specific question - their sensors need calibrating and configuring as I understand it. Do I have to purchase the Maretron software to do that? Will I miss out on critical configuration if I go with iKommunicate and SignalK based software?

Thanks

Richard

Typically they do require some level of configuration, but it varies from device to device. That would require either a USB100 or an IPG100. Configuration is then all done with n2kanalyze which is a free product.

The IPG100 is more expensive, but I would recommend it over the USB100. You will be spared the typical driver hassles, and the IPG can be used by multiple computers at the same time, unlike the USB100. It may not matter initially, but if you end up using N2K view down the road, you will appreciate being able to use both View and Analyze at the same time, or to be able to run either from any computer, or to use their IPad app.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:46 AM   #57
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Typically they do require some level of configuration, but it varies from device to device. That would require either a USB100 or an IPG100. Configuration is then all done with n2kanalyze which is a free product.

The IPG100 is more expensive, but I would recommend it over the USB100. You will be spared the typical driver hassles, and the IPG can be used by multiple computers at the same time, unlike the USB100. It may not matter initially, but if you end up using N2K view down the road, you will appreciate being able to use both View and Analyze at the same time, or to be able to run either from any computer, or to use their IPad app.
Ok - that makes sense. Unfortunately it sounds like going with iKommunicate would be an additional gateway and could not replace a Maretron Gateway. The initial outlay is high if I end up buying N2KView and the IPG100. After that the incremental cost goes down, but I'd hope to try it out with a lower initial investment.

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Old 03-09-2017, 10:35 AM   #58
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Unfortunately it sounds like going with iKommunicate would be an additional gateway and could not replace a Maretron Gateway.
Not necessarily. I just put in 2 additional N2K depth transducers. Both have an internal surface-to-transducer offset to make the transducer report depth the way I like it (surface depth). To set that, a python script was available to set the value. Now if the calibration requires some interactive adjustments, then you might need their product. I haven't put in wind yet - I intend to use an N2K ultrasonic model. I would not want to have to have a fixed wind display - I want it wireless.

You can also have a Rasberry Pi and the iKommunicate. I have both and both live on the same network. The iK just works. But the Pi allows some tweaking and newer things are coming out for it first. For example, there's a new small Pi server add-on that implements a centralized anchor alarm. iK will have that eventually too but you can play with the Pi version of it now. The Pi requires much more Linux experience to get cutting edge things working.

Wind is next up on my list (probably fall though because I need to get away from all of this) and I'll have a lot more first-hand experience with getting it to work then.


I wear thick gloves and ear protection with the needle gun (but they're not special gloves). I don't do more than an hour of it at a time. I have about 40 hours of experience with it (2 guns - large and small) and I'm just starting to really get good at working with it. There is something incredibly satisfying about using it and it's a great complement to sitting behind a keyboard. I also have a spot sand blaster and a friend is trying to convince me to get a real recovery blaster. Somehow, the needle gun combined with a pneumatic rotary sander feels better.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:57 AM   #59
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Not necessarily. I just put in 2 additional N2K depth transducers. Both have an internal surface-to-transducer offset to make the transducer report depth the way I like it (surface depth). To set that, a python script was available to set the value. Now if the calibration requires some interactive adjustments, then you might need their product. I haven't put in wind yet - I intend to use an N2K ultrasonic model. I would not want to have to have a fixed wind display - I want it wireless.

You can also have a Rasberry Pi and the iKommunicate. I have both and both live on the same network. The iK just works. But the Pi allows some tweaking and newer things are coming out for it first. For example, there's a new small Pi server add-on that implements a centralized anchor alarm. iK will have that eventually too but you can play with the Pi version of it now. The Pi requires much more Linux experience to get cutting edge things working.

Wind is next up on my list (probably fall though because I need to get away from all of this) and I'll have a lot more first-hand experience with getting it to work then.


...
It sounds like it may vary from one manufacturer to another as to whether you need proprietary software to configure the sensors.

Which other manufacturers are you getting the N2K sensors (wind, depth) from? The Maretron wind sensor is solid state (ultrasonic) but is still wired. I don't like the idea of critical instruments be wireless only - I haven't found the stability of wireless connections to be high enough to be relied on.

Thanks

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Old 03-09-2017, 11:37 AM   #60
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Jeff, not interested in getting into a disagreement with you, just showing a different point of view. Think the technology is interesting. Where I feel we differ is budget. You are blessed to be in the 1 to 5% of this forum where budgeting this level of expense for this technology isn't a consideration. For most of us, cost versus benefit or advantage over the existing system is a real consideration. While having all the technology and required equipment to know whether there is an available washing machine in the marina is cool, for my situation, spending the money on a new dual range radar antenna was more beneficial. Btw, knowing the use status of a washing machine at the marina does me no good if I can't reserve it. My luck has me walking into the laundry room as someone else is loading that previously available machine.



Ted


I did do a horrible job of explaining my point, budget was the issue. The automation parts (SmartThings,IoT, ifttt) are extremely inexpensive and some of it saved thousands. The PLC was just the same. Also....key here is there are manual switches in case everything goes wrong. Not arguing against any of you that say "you would never" as I agree you probably would never, however trying to help future readers understand my reasoning and experience with this project.

First (addressing a few other comments), the touch screen is industrial, it is robust, and it is not "new fangled technology". It has been around for 20+ years. Including much of the touch functionality. It will be running many years from now. The system runs many yachts, trains, planes, and other incredible harsh industrial equipment. And....... it was way less expensive than installing a 2k based system, much less, with a lot more benefits.
Second, want to turn old (25 years old to be exact) wipers into intermittent wiper, a. I of code on the system that controls your wipers with a digital switch. Want to turn your horn into a a uscg signaling device with pre programmed settings. Some code changes there.

The touch screen switches.
Same deal here, I won't own this boat for ever. I was/am refitting it, and making a 1992 boat that looks 20 years newer on the exterior, look 25 years newer on the interior adds to its value. (Insert lines here about boats are not investment and nobody makes money on a boat.). I have, probably won't, but also won't loose much more than my maintenance and usages cost were.

Now to the SmartThings piece. I have this first because of expense and second because of its pretty freakin' cool for a Tech guy. For base of 200$ I have a system that allows me to setup security on my boat. Want to add a control to monitor if your hatch/window/door gets opened. 30$. Yep 30$x. No wiring, just 30$ and replace a small battery once a year or two. Want to add something to monitor a water level, 40$. That's it, owner installed in 10minutes. No wires. Want to add temperature, humility, motion detection, and light monitoring for maybe your engine room. 45$. Did I mention you get alerts, emails, SMS included with all this.

Now, for you live aboards, you say, you don't need it. I argue you still might want to consider it. Why? It's a cheap piece of mind. We have a dock mate that is a live aboard who had someone come on his boat after they broke into the docks. Want to turn a light on and play a loud siren to alarm when this happens...90-100$ for both items. Setup time 15m. Wiring time, ZERO.

Again, as a boat owner who is far from a 1%er, but working hard to maybe achieve that one day, much of what I do is have an open mind that leverages technology when I can to modernize systems, mostly to save money and appeal to potential buyers down the road, and sometimes because it's cool. I have a beautiful 1992 boat with a analog engine (Luggers) monitoring that has been modernize to look/act like a brand new engine. I have taken this a hodgepodge of 30 switches and modernize it to a industrial system. With the help of an incredible marine electrician. Saved a time of money and have a system that can be expanded to do almost anything for my convenience and piece of mind.

It's not for everyone, but there was a time where I had people throw computers at me (true story) while a put one in their arc melting furnace building and tell me nobody needs them or the internet. Well times have changed now. This is not a case of just because you can...this is a case of, if you open your minds to the possibilities and are doing a change like mine, you might be able to provide redundancy, modernization, and some cool shit, at a fraction of the cost.

Hope my setup and experience helps some of you here or future people looking around.
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