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Old 03-08-2017, 03:37 AM   #21
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While I like the geeky aspect, a lot of these things are for me highly useless and nice to have. Don't mind me there is no bashing in my comment. But things like starting the washing machine with my cell phone is cool, but is it really useful? More the kind of thing we find useful because we can have it but nothing more. I do not say that everything is a gadget, but some things are really a great step (like being able to have your chartplotter on your tablet, for me it is great step, cost less and simple to use, very handy) while other things are like my internet connected fridge, kinda cool but...
At the hospital lab where I used to work, the sales tech people installed a new blood analyzer machine and excitedly told us we could run it remotely from the internet. My comment was a medical technologist still has to load the machine, so what use is being able to run it from the net.
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Old 03-08-2017, 06:24 AM   #22
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But things like starting the washing machine with my cell phone is cool, but is it really useful?
Incredibly so. But it seems like you're starting from a position of, "this is all silly" so you're not able to see it.

Three years ago, South Jersey Marina in Cape May replaced their washing machines with ones that connect to the internet. We arrived there about a month after they were installed. The benefits were obvious. Today, many of their reviews mention it. Many boats come there *because* of it. Why would that be?

Ask your wife about the usefulness of being able to see if there's a free washing machine prior to walking over with laundry or seeing the cycle of the machines she's using...all on her phone. It's all like that. All it takes is a little imagination and the benefits of connectivity usually save money, time, or make decisions better.
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:30 AM   #23
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I'm all for interconnecting this stuff, but I find the reliance on ubiquitous internet to be a real problem. I acknowledge that our use is different than many/most, but here are some of the issues that I struggle with on a regular basis.

1) Reliable connectivity. Having a reliable internet connection can be a real challenge all by itself. I have visits a lot of marinas, and very few of them have reliable internet. By "reliable", I mean that I can connect via my Microtik Groove extender, and remain connected indefinitely without having to touch anything. This is essential if you are going to leave a boat unattended and relay of remote monitoring. And then there is the question of whether any data will actually go through that network, even if you do remain connected. I'd say at least 50% of the wifi services that that do exist at marinas are essentially non-functional because they are overloaded, configured incorrectly, or something else. I have found that cellular internet is many, many times more likely to connect, stay connected, and allow basic services to actually work than marina wifi. How sad is that? Wifi should be the first choice for connectivity, but it's at best second when on a boat.

2) Reliability of connected software and services. Even with a reliable connection that successfully passes data, the various communications services are less than reliable. For example, I have never been able to keep Maretron's N2KView running and sending alert emails for more than 30-60 days before a person needs to restart it or reboot the system it's on. And I've been experimenting with Back To My Mac for system remote access to do that restarting and rebooting, and it is supremely unreliable. Screen sharing will work for a few days or weeks, then stop until I reboot some combination of systems and routers. And the same is true for the file sharing. It will work for a while, then stop. And the services work or fail independently of each other. Usually it's screen sharing that craps out, but more recently it's file sharing that's not working. These are just examples, but in my experience it's always something and human intervention is required.

3) Bandwidth control. Pretty much every product out there can now connect to the internet in some way, and they are all designed with the assumption that bandwidth is free and unlimited. The same is true for apps. They are like a gaggle of school girls that can't stop talking. But on a boat, bandwidth is seldom free and unlimited, and can often be very limited and very expensive. This runs completely counter to the design of most modern devices and apps. Last summer I spent a fair amount of time monitoring the data on our boat trying to understand who was using what, and how much. My Samsung TV is a "Smart" TV, but I only use to display my Apple TV. One day I found that while turned off, and with automatic updates disabled, it had downloaded over 600MB of who knows what. 600MB may not sound like much these days, but on a 2GB monthly cellular plan, it's huge. The TV is now blocked in my router and can't access the internet.

Satellite is where it gets real challenging. We pretty commonly are out for weeks at a time with no cellular access, and I'm just not willing to pay thousands of $$ per month for sat data, so I live with a $250/month plan, which I still think is outrageous. That plan gets me a whopping 250MB of data for the whole month. My goal has been to live with that for basic email communications. Check and send email twice a day, disable all automatic attachment downloads, disable all HTML web accesses, etc. No web browsing, no cloud, and definitely no IoT. The only way this works is by only allowing a specific set of devices to access a specific set of TCP ports that support email. Nothing else. I know people who have bought boats with Satelite internet and not paid attention to data useage. I'm not talking about people using netflix or other streaming - just basic email, web browsing, etc. After the first month's $25,000 KVH bill, things change quickly.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the internet is great - heck, I've been involved in building products for it in one way or another for over 30 years. And having more and more stuff connected is great. But at least some kinds of boating run contrary to common connected product design, and sometimes are completely incompatible with common designs. But that represents opportunity for enterprising souls .......
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:29 AM   #24
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Incredibly so. But it seems like you're starting from a position of, "this is all silly" so you're not able to see it.

Three years ago, South Jersey Marina in Cape May replaced their washing machines with ones that connect to the internet. We arrived there about a month after they were installed. The benefits were obvious. Today, many of their reviews mention it. Many boats come there *because* of it. Why would that be?

Ask your wife about the usefulness of being able to see if there's a free washing machine prior to walking over with laundry or seeing the cycle of the machines she's using...all on her phone. It's all like that. All it takes is a little imagination and the benefits of connectivity usually save money, time, or make decisions better.
Well this is exactly what I meant when I wrote that we find it useful because we can have it. Sorry but i never spent time in front of my washing machine to look at what is the cycle. I start it and come back later when I know it is done.
I was not talking about what it brings but if it is useful or not. Bringing some benefit over a not connected thing yes, does this benefit is useful for me... not always. Same with a fridge, I don't care to see the fridge displaying that I miss some milk, I know it as I was the one that finish the milk bottle...
Is it useful to be able to unlock my car with my phone? Well it does not much more than a simple key, geeky cool yes, useful no.
I am not against progress or modernity at all and a lot of stuff are really cool and make life easier, but sometime it is a total overkill, at least for me.
But I do not blame any body who like this

L.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:15 PM   #25
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It's rather amazing to see the difference in tone between this forum and boating groups on Facebook with active boaters, generally posting when they are cruising and away from home.

I'm just starting to understand this place...
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:19 PM   #26
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Everyone has their opinions and each are valid, they are formed from their experiences and environment. Kind of like what anchor to use. I mean this not to be "nice" or to try to sell you on my opinion, but in truth, what you may value will likely be difference that what I value.

The reality is most of this stuff is for one or two purposes, convenience and knowledge. The remaining, at least for me, is to save cost with what I perceive to be just as good or better systems. I have a large boat, but it is older, I do most of the work my self so i can try to afford it, when I can forgo a 1600$ 7 inch screen with a 400$ iPad and then get the benefits of remote capability, then I do it.

Do I need to know if someone opened a hatch, opened a door, walked on my swim platform, wind is blowing 40knots, bilge has gone off 20 times for 45 minutes in the last 24hours, bilge water is increasing, all from the confront of my chair at home while sipping my scotch? nope, but sure is convenient and helpful.

Judging from my dock mates, my boat is used more than likely most for its size and owner/operator that is still in the workforce. But given that, it spends most of its days at my dock, and i or my family spend many more days on it at the dock then we do on vacation trips on the boat. Nothing against those enjoying their life at dock.

My rational is, monitor the heck out of the boat, where I have good internet, especially giving the cost advantages of IoT. Create systems that are more effective and will keep up with the pace of change, but don't require internet if needed when i leave the dock, but leverage the power of IoT when we can.

A few examples:

Example 1:
I have my lights in my flybridge (RGBW LED) connected to the PLC (no internet required) and to Smartthings. If someone opens the doors or a hatch, or motion is detected when my wife or I are not there, they turn on (power of internet and IoT) then flash red/blue like the police. When I leave the dock, this functionality is lost...I use iPads or PLC HMI to control the lights but i don't have monitoring of hatches or doors, that is ok by me. I don't need them on the hook.

Example 2:

how many times do you forget to turn off the heat when you leave the boat? I spend a couple of evenings on the boat, to smoke a cigar relax while waiting for my kid to get down with her Volleyball practice that is 50m from home, I would forget to turn down the heat a lot, but my system detects for me, that i have left the building, and turns down the heat and arms the boat automatically. Required, no, but convenient and money saving, yes.

Example 3:

How much would it be to install a boat monitoring system, including motion sensors, temp sensors, cameras, door sensors connected to normal marine protocol (NMEA) systems or hire a outside firm? For 200$, plus 30-70$ a device, no wiring, and maybe 8 hours setup, install it all, negate the need for a paid security monitoring company. Well for 600-700$ and some time, with no wires, except the CAT5 connection and power. I setup this system. Simple. Economical. Practical.


There is complication, there is cost and hopefully cost savings, and i recognize that this is not for everyone, but as someone that gets a kick out of the art of the possible, i am all in!

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Old 03-08-2017, 02:07 PM   #27
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The reality is most of this stuff is for one or two purposes, convenience and knowledge.
We have very similar to what you've done. I couldn't tell you the details or how it's all put together as I definitely did not do it myself. However, you miss perhaps our biggest purpose-Peace of Mind. I have a need to know. I can't comfortably just walk away or go home for three weeks or even just go to town for a few hours in some remote areas without monitoring. Others do fine. I'm just speaking of myself.

Now a good part of this is that prices are coming down. Compare the price of cameras to what they were. I think over time boat monitoring and security systems will become far more common in small to medium sized boats whereas now they're often seen only in very large boats. Here's a thought as to why I hope for that. Let's compare two boats. Owner A has a $200k trawler. Owner B had a $50 Million Yacht. Owner B has the fancy security and monitoring. However, Owner A is the one who can likely least afford something happening. On the other hand, things don't happen often so one could argue that we're solving a problem that doesn't exist.

That goes back to the reality that a problem does exist for me and that is peace of mind. Some things like being able to adjust the heat and air remotely are extremely useful.

I don't know how frequently some things do happen. We have had people climb aboard our boat when we weren't there.

We do have one other touch we got added. That is the ability to speak to whomever is on or beside the boat. It's almost worth it just to see the looks on their faces when you ask them, "Can I help you? Yes, you, the young man in the blue shirt and girl in the pink halter top." That couple was fun as the guy then asked "Where are you?" My wife replied, "We are everywhere."
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:15 PM   #28
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It's rather amazing to see the difference in tone between this forum and boating groups on Facebook with active boaters, generally posting when they are cruising and away from home.

I'm just starting to understand this place...
You're saying we are not active boaters? Or arm-chair boaters?

Just clarifying.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:24 PM   #29
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You're saying we are not active boaters? Or arm-chair boaters?

Just clarifying.
Not active, stupid, ill informed and nowhere nearly as good as his facebook buddies. Interesting how he took the opportunity to trash the entire forum. Makes you wonder why he's here associating with all of us.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:28 PM   #30
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I will miss you guys. I could always count on getting whatever negative views were possible on here. I would often trial balloon things here to edit them in their real release.

But those days are coming to an end. I will miss you all. Seriously.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:35 PM   #31
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I will miss you guys. I could always count on getting whatever negative views were possible on here. I would often trial balloon things here to edit them in their real release.

But those days are coming to an end. I will miss you all. Seriously.
Wifey B: Promises, promises.

Makes me wanna sing.

Promises, promises
I'm all through with promises, promises now
I don't know how I got the nerve to walk out
If I shout, remember I feel free

Now I can look at myself and be proud
I'm laughing out loud
Oh, promises, promises
This is where those promises, promises end

I don't pretend that what was wrong can be right
Every night I sleep now, no more lies
Things that I promised myself fell apart
But I found my heart

Oh, promises, their kind of promises, can just destroy a life
Oh, promises, those kind of promises, take all the joy from life
Oh, promises, promises, my kind of promises
Can lead to joy and hope and love

Seriously, anyone keeping count of how many times he's said goodbye?
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:38 PM   #32
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Wifey B: Promises, promises.
Now be nice. It'll be soon enough - you'll see.

Deep down Wifey B, it's pretty obvious how you feel though.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:42 PM   #33
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Everyone has their opinions and each are valid, they are formed from their experiences and environment. Kind of like what anchor to use. I mean this not to be "nice" or to try to sell you on my opinion, but in truth, what you may value will likely be difference that what I value.

The reality is most of this stuff is for one or two purposes, convenience and knowledge. The remaining, at least for me, is to save cost with what I perceive to be just as good or better systems. I have a large boat, but it is older, I do most of the work my self so i can try to afford it, when I can forgo a 1600$ 7 inch screen with a 400$ iPad and then get the benefits of remote capability, then I do it.

Do I need to know if someone opened a hatch, opened a door, walked on my swim platform, wind is blowing 40knots, bilge has gone off 20 times for 45 minutes in the last 24hours, bilge water is increasing, all from the confront of my chair at home while sipping my scotch? nope, but sure is convenient and helpful.

Judging from my dock mates, my boat is used more than likely most for its size and owner/operator that is still in the workforce. But given that, it spends most of its days at my dock, and i or my family spend many more days on it at the dock then we do on vacation trips on the boat. Nothing against those enjoying their life at dock.

My rational is, monitor the heck out of the boat, where I have good internet, especially giving the cost advantages of IoT. Create systems that are more effective and will keep up with the pace of change, but don't require internet if needed when i leave the dock, but leverage the power of IoT when we can.

A few examples:

Example 1:
I have my lights in my flybridge (RGBW LED) connected to the PLC (no internet required) and to Smartthings. If someone opens the doors or a hatch, or motion is detected when my wife or I are not there, they turn on (power of internet and IoT) then flash red/blue like the police. When I leave the dock, this functionality is lost...I use iPads or PLC HMI to control the lights but i don't have monitoring of hatches or doors, that is ok by me. I don't need them on the hook.

Example 2:

how many times do you forget to turn off the heat when you leave the boat? I spend a couple of evenings on the boat, to smoke a cigar relax while waiting for my kid to get down with her Volleyball practice that is 50m from home, I would forget to turn down the heat a lot, but my system detects for me, that i have left the building, and turns down the heat and arms the boat automatically. Required, no, but convenient and money saving, yes.

Example 3:

How much would it be to install a boat monitoring system, including motion sensors, temp sensors, cameras, door sensors connected to normal marine protocol (NMEA) systems or hire a outside firm? For 200$, plus 30-70$ a device, no wiring, and maybe 8 hours setup, install it all, negate the need for a paid security monitoring company. Well for 600-700$ and some time, with no wires, except the CAT5 connection and power. I setup this system. Simple. Economical. Practical.


There is complication, there is cost and hopefully cost savings, and i recognize that this is not for everyone, but as someone that gets a kick out of the art of the possible, i am all in!

nautibeaver
I've automated lots of the same stuff, both at home and on the boat. Setting back the heat is a big one for me, since we will often leave a place for weeks at a time. Our houses are in very cold regions, and the insulation (there is none) on the boat sucks. So turning down the heat is very important. Like you said, it's easy to forget, and even easier for my kids or guests to forget. We have ours tied into our alarm system. When the alarm is armed, the heat automatically sets back. I find that really useful.

You and BandB both mention remote monitoring. To me that is really critical. To me, the things you listed (bilge pump running, someone walking around the outside of the boat, wind blowing 40kts, inside temp lower than expected, shore power failure, inverter power failure, day tank level getting low (diesel heat), aren't just nice to know. For me they are critical. If something goes wrong, I want to know immediately so I can get someone on the boat to deal with it.

I'm a big fan of alarming. Much more so than automating. I have lots of alarms set, mostly to help me not screw up. I don't see it as much different from having check lists. I operate the boat, but if I forget something or so something wrong, an alarm will help catch it for things get really ugly. For automation, I tend to focus on the things that are highly error prone, like forgetting to set back the heat. And things that will make life a lot more convenient. Counter arguments are around what I'll do when/if the automation fails in one way or another, especially if it's my wife or someone else who's trying to do something. There is a lot to be said for a light switch with an On and an Off position. Pretty hard to screw that up.

I agree with you that each of us will automate different things to different extents, and that's fine. And some stuff we will do just because it's fun.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:43 PM   #34
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hate to be a buzz kill, as people love to get worked up, but i will restate the following:

"Everyone has their opinions and each are valid, they are formed from their experiences and environment. Kind of like what anchor to use. I mean this not to be "nice" or to try to sell you on my opinion, but in truth, what you may value will likely be difference that what I value."

Same as politics, people growing up on the farm with little exposure to different people and views (like i most did) have a much different view on politics than those growing up and living in a city. There views are different, their needs are different, each side is different. Not wrong, just different. When you accept that, for what it is, we will all get more out of our conversations.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:46 PM   #35
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Agree TwistedTree! We boat because it fun! most of this is adding to that fun.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:06 PM   #36
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Agree TwistedTree! We boat because it fun! most of this is adding to that fun.
Funny. My wife says I like boating because I get to live in a machine. She's not wrong :-)
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:17 PM   #37
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I will miss you guys. I could always count on getting whatever negative views were possible on here. I would often trial balloon things here to edit them in their real release.

But those days are coming to an end. I will miss you all. Seriously.
Wow, Jeffrey. You really are a piece of work. I've defended you in the past, but now regret it. I've seen you crap on all sorts of people individually, and now you make a broad based insult to the whole forum in your last few posts here, seemingly because we don't all share your view of technology and boating.

I've liked Active Captain, but you make it really hard to continue liking it, and have certainly convinced me not to delve into any of your other products or offerings. You are the company's single biggest enemies, in opinion.

Maybe you like the feedback on Facebook better, but what you hear on this site I think is pretty darn representative of cruisers, and probably the segment of the market that uses AC the most. I think it's pretty foolish to dismiss it as wrong, and even more foolish to insult pretty much everyone here.

Sounds like you are moving on, and sounds like you are about to launch your own forum-like something or other IoT, IFTTT, Cloud, SaS, whatever. Good luck, and good riddance.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:46 PM   #38
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Not sure I understand the reaction, did I wrote something wrong? If yes sorry it was not my intend and it is only misunderstanding.
By the way it is true I am not boating, just waiting fr the ice to melt down
Anyway I am better to think twice before posting any opinion as it is not my intend to harm anybody feelings.

L.
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Old 03-08-2017, 04:17 PM   #39
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I've liked Active Captain, but you make it really hard to continue liking it, and have certainly convinced me not to delve into any of your other products or offerings. You are the company's single biggest enemies, in opinion.
Like me, hate me, it's all OK. But why that would have anything to do with ActiveCaptain is strange. If you don't want to use ActiveCaptain because of that, it's OK too. You're only hurting yourself and the rest of the community. ActiveCaptain is them, not me. It's like hating Apple because Steve Jobs was a jerk. And gosh, he was a lot worse than me.

I come here to provide my experience to the group. My skills and experience are different than a lot (especially here). I often have an alternate view that other forums/groups find great. It's sort of like, if everyone agrees, then why have the discussion? Other places embrace it. Challenge it. They don't attack it and call me names. And then threaten to not use a product that only helps them. It's a bizarre way to respond.

It's also odd to me that I'm accused of making personal attacks. If you are horrified by the idea that pigs in the Exumas died as you're eating pulled pork, you're a hypocrite. You define the term. That's not a personal attack. It's a definition. And of course, while this is going on, endless personal attack posts, solely attacking me and not the subject, take place.

All of this is the reason there are no industry people here. That's rather shocking, don't you think? Why would there be an endless array of government, industry, marina management, and other businesses responding to the ActiveCaptain Facebook group and yet none show up here (except me). You have a little clique here and if you don't fit, you're attacked. I get it. You think I have a thin skin but it's much thicker than yours - I don't run away from the ridicule here. If anything, I respond to it.

This forum has served a purpose of me very well. Exceedingly well. But as all things, they run their course. For what it's worth, I was asked to join here to help it get started when it first started up. This was the obvious progression from the TrawlerWorld group (now T&T). It's a shame that the faults there caused the same infection here so as to reduce the number of participants along with the need to attack certain people. There's a PhD or two of research into that.

You'll see. You'll miss me terribly.
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Old 03-08-2017, 04:21 PM   #40
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Sounds like you are moving on, and sounds like you are about to launch your own forum-like something or other IoT, IFTTT, Cloud, SaS, whatever. Good luck, and good riddance.
No, I'm not launching any forum or anything like that.

The "good riddance" though - tell me, are you proud of that? I think that deserves an apology here in public.
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