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Old 10-08-2012, 07:42 PM   #41
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We cruise out side the US more than in. Usually the maximum time between surveyor's is 3 years as it seems we switch companies for a better policy based on our geographic location. Our policy year is from 10/1 to 10/1. Here's one of last years quotes. They were one of 1 or 2 companies that would insure us. We didn't go with them but I thought I would post the cover page FYI. Look at the exclusions.


From:
Liam Gi.... To: Graham ....

Date:


Monday, September 19, 2011 At:......Insurance Group

Assured:


L.... and L... Fax: 001-949..........

Vessel:


'Hobo' 1987 42' Kadey Krogan

Cover and Respective Insured Limits:
Section: Sum Insured: Deductible:
A.Hull US$ 260,000 US$ 10,400
Tender US$ 5,000 US$ 500
B. Third Party Liability


US$ 1,000,000 CSL US$ 500

C. Medical Payments


US$ 10,000 US$ 100

D. Uninsured Boaters


US$ 260,000

F. Personal Property


US$ 5,000 US$ 500

Total Premium:


US$ 4,650.00 C.R.O + US$ 35.00 Certificate Fee

In the event of cancellation by the Assured minimum of 25% of premium deemed earned. All fees
earned at inception.
Laid Up Period:


None.

Navigational Limits:


West Coast Panama to the Caribbean Sea (Excluding Cuba &

Haiti), Colombia and Venezuela via the Panama Canal - Not to
exceed 150 miles offshore.
Insuring Agreement
Wording:
As per SYP/7/PPO.
Additional Warranties, Terms
and Conditions:
Warranted vessel will be located & will only navigate South of
12 degrees 40 minutes north latitude July 1st to November 1st.
Security as approved and agreed by you:
Section A, C, D & F: 100% Great Lakes Reinsurance (UK) PLC
Section B:


100% Great Lakes Reinsurance (UK) PLC

The above subject to:
Photograph of vessel, Satisfactory application form, Hurricane plan.
OSPREY
SPECIAL RISKS LIMITED
Quotation
Valid for 60 days only
Date: Monday, September 19, 2011
Ref: 312583A
5 & 6 Dalesway House,
South Hawksworth Street,
Ilkley, West Yorkshire, LS29 9LA
Tel: +44 (0) 1943 811000
Fax: +44 (0) 1943 601854


September 19, 2011





Page 1 of 1 Osprey Special Risks Ltd ::+:: Welcome to Osprey-uwr ::+::
COW013007
COLOMBIA EXCLUSIONS and WARRANTIES
1) All deductibles are doubled whilst in Colombian waters.
2) Confiscation by any Authority is excluded.
3) Piracy of, and/or, to, and/or taking of insured vessel, or losses arising therefrom, are excluded.
4) THEFT cover, in respect of property on board and/or the insured vessel itself, or any part
thereof, or loss or damage arising out of THEFT, or attempted THEFT is


excluded

absolutely:


unless insured vessel is moored within a commercial marina agreed in writing by

Insurers hereon.

ALL OTHER TERMS, CLAUSES AND CONDITIONS REMAIN UNALTERED.

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Old 10-08-2012, 08:44 PM   #42
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The absolute worst surveyors I have ever hired were SAMS/NAMS "accredited". Their penchant for evaluating a 30 year old boat against the latest ABYC design guide is responsible for driving up insurance rates.
OK, Could you quantify that statement?

How does a surveyor that evaluates a 30 year old boat against current ABYC standards drive up insurance costs? I'm having trouble drawing that logical conclusion. Please enlightn me.

I would argue that forcing boaters to upgrade their boats to the latest standards would actually lower rates for all of us, since it lowers the risk of loss, it lowers the price an insurer can sell coverage and still make a profit.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:45 PM   #43
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They have a publication "Seaworthy" that's published I believe quarterly that's focused on avoiding damage and tips on avoiding claims. No other insurance company that I know of goes to that extent.
Incedently you don't need to have BoatUS insurance to get the publication, I believe you can read it on line. I read each issue cover to cover.
.
--------------------------------------------
Since you mentioned it, I got my Seaworthy issue Saturday always full of interesting articles and stories. They publish two different magazines Seaworthy and Boat US Magazine. I like the fact they talk about actual claims they have and explain what caused the loss, with pictures. Learning from others mistakes is always a good way to not repeat a simple error. Love the one where the woman launched her SUV off a pier and became the bow pulpit of an unfortunate boat. No alcohol involved!!

Yes, the magazine is still online and free to all. Go to the URL below and open "This Issues Video" The Title is: "Funniest Boat Launch Ever." It truly is!!!

BoatUS: Seaworthy Magazine July 2012

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Old 10-09-2012, 01:48 AM   #44
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Insurance

I agree with getting a broker, they not only know what the price should be, they know what coverage you really need.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:16 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skidgear View Post
The absolute worst surveyors I have ever hired were SAMS/NAMS "accredited". Their penchant for evaluating a 30 year old boat against the latest ABYC design guide is responsible for driving up insurance rates. When I called SAMS headquarters and complained about one of them, I was advised that individual members have a great amount of leeway. In other words, the organization has zero control over their members or over standardization. The senior staffer on the phone told me his personal boat would never meet the ABYC standard, and shouldn't be expected to. The SAMS/NAMS "trust partnership" is a pathetic joke...and the joke is ultimately on policy owners who get to pay higher rates. I finally found a top notch (and relatively expensive) naval architect, who has credentials as long as your arm...designer and build supervisor for several custom trawlers, tugs, and barges on the Great Lakes. Does design work for Palmer Johnson and a large shipyard. Years of survey experience. Highly respected. The insurance company was initially hesitant to accept him because he wasn't on a SAMS/NAMS/SCAMS list. Fact is he refuses to be associated with either organization and I understand why. SAMS/NAMS membership absolutely does NOT equate to competence...or common sense.
How do NAMS/SAMS drive up insurance rates? The actuarial science that is used to calculate rates gets its data from a number of sources: vessel construction material, vessel age, vessel performance characteristics, fuel type used, loss history of a particular model, owner/operator experience (or lack thereof) and loss history, waters navigated, etc. Any surveyor is reporting on the material condition of a vessel to determine seaworthiness and insurability. I've NEVER had any insuring market require that any vessel be completely brought up to current ABYC standards as a condition of insurability; however, it is common to require reported survey deficiencies be corrected. As a broker, I prefer that the owner be aware of how his boat compares to current standards, as most boat owners are completely unaware that organizations like ABYC and NFPA even exist, and how they relate to their boat.

I agree- naval architects are very well versed in vessel design and construction. However, they are not in the survey business- that's why the insuring companies are not wholly accepting of naval architects as surveyors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wataworld View Post
Just to add a little more spice to a already spicy subject Lloyds of London is an Excess & Surplus lines market and is not backed in Florida By FIGA like a admitted carrier is ofcourse I only speak of Florida not sure in other states! Oh by the way you all seem very knowledgable on this subject!

Insurance agent for the last 35 years
Spot on!


I can appreciate the various takes on this topic, as almost all are subjective rather than objective. Take a minute and put yourself in the shoes (so to speak) of the insuring company. Assuming an agreed value policy, they are on the hook to pay the assured the value of the vessel as shown on the dec page for total loss. Having surveys done on a regular basis helps mitigate the risk for both insuring company and assured, and gives the assured a disinterested review of his vessel.

Let's be frank and real- insurance companies do pay claims, and they are also in the business of ensuring claims are not paid for fraudulent, preventable, or excluded occurrences. Bear in mind that the All Risk policy also covers occurrences not in the policy language- if the policy language is silent on a claim issue, coverage is generally afforded to the assured.

I believe that all here will want their policy to pay should a loss occur, and this desire must be offset with the insurance company's desire to ensure that the insured vessel is as low a risk as possible. Surveys help to determine just that.
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:25 PM   #46
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OK, Could you quantify that statement?

How does a surveyor that evaluates a 30 year old boat against current ABYC standards drive up insurance costs? I'm having trouble drawing that logical conclusion. Please enlightn me.

I would argue that forcing boaters to upgrade their boats to the latest standards would actually lower rates for all of us, since it lowers the risk of loss, it lowers the price an insurer can sell coverage and still make a profit.

" Driving up insurance rates" was a poor choice of words on my part. "Insurance costs", or "costs due to insurance" is what I should have said.

If a surveyor makes an arbitrary statement on the survey report that "X" system does not meet ABYC and puts it in the "must fix" category, the owner is either stuck with taking an exception for a perfectly good and safe system, explaining to an often uninformed insurance adjuster that the finding is inappropriate, or upgrading the system. All have associated costs in time, headaches and dollars in the case of the latter. Personal experience (not hearsay) is that the process is incredibly arbitrary in spite of what SAMS/NAMS or others might like you to believe.

Are you for forcing all owners of older cars and houses to upgrade these items to the latest design criteria?
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:40 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skidgear View Post
" Driving up insurance rates" was a poor choice of words on my part. "Insurance costs", or "costs due to insurance" is what I should have said.

If a surveyor makes an arbitrary statement on the survey report that "X" system does not meet ABYC and puts it in the "must fix" category, the owner is either stuck with taking an exception for a perfectly good and safe system, explaining to an often uninformed insurance adjuster that the finding is inappropriate, or upgrading the system. All have associated costs in time, headaches and dollars in the case of the latter. Personal experience (not hearsay) is that the process is incredibly arbitrary in spite of what SAMS/NAMS or others might like you to believe.

Are you for forcing all owners of older cars and houses to upgrade these items to the latest design criteria?
I understand your point- at the same time, I've never seen a survey that had requirements to make a vessel comply with current ABYC code unless it was a safety/critical item (removing wire nuts from connections is a very common one). Marine insuring companies understand that a 15 year old Grand Banks that was in compliance at time of manufacture does not meet current standards- and they don't debit the quote/policy because of same.

Now, if the survey found extreme situations that warranted extreme action, that is a different story; for example, if a 1985 Ocean Alex is partially sunk in saltwater, and the vessel had to be rewired as a result, I can see the surveyor requiring the vessel meet current compliance standards.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:47 PM   #48
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Being in the salvage business...I see the huge disconnect between what surveyors and insurance companies think is important and what actually is.

I just raised maybe my 300th boat yesterday....it sank from neglect. The owner hadn't been on it in 3 months. It was a fairly new, fairly nice Grady White, twin outboard....fully insured and now a total loss probably.

So...what's more insurable...a perfect but neglected boat...or a guy on a boat bailing like crazy? My bet is on the less than perfect boat and the guy bailing like crazy...at least his boat has a chance....

Sorry...surveyors and insurance companies while necessary....are too strict many times in their guidelines and thinking....I could give many examples but I bet most of you could name a dozen off the top of your head.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:33 PM   #49
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I understand your point- at the same time, I've never seen a survey that had requirements to make a vessel comply with current ABYC code unless it was a safety/critical item (removing wire nuts from connections is a very common one). Marine insuring companies understand that a 15 year old Grand Banks that was in compliance at time of manufacture does not meet current standards- and they don't debit the quote/policy because of same.
I've had two instances where perfectly maintained original design systems were listed as not in compliance to ABYC and placed in the must fix section on an insurance survey. Both times it was a SAMS surveyor who made the arbitrary call....minimum acceptable safety equated to current ABYC. So I'm stuck with either firing the surveyor or having a discussion with the insurance company. I chose to raise hell with the insurance company (and SAMS in the first instance). When I finally got to someone in the know at the insurance company, the items were removed from the must do lists. But I had a struggle to make it happen. Not everyone would bother. I would have been upgrading to the tune of about $1500 in the first instance and $1000 in the second...or taking an exception. I respectfully disagree with your assessment that insurance companies don't misapply ABYC upgrade recommendations from uninformed surveyors. They were prepared to do so in these instances.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:18 PM   #50
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Update on search for insurance. Freshalaska suggested Susan with IMIS. After two weeks she finally got back to me. It turns out she is crusing the South Pacific on her big Catamaran. Won't spend dollars for Sat. service, had to walk to town to communicate. If that is the way IMIS does business I would not recommend them. The company she finally sent to me is in London and had a lot of exclusions. All things considered I passed.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:44 PM   #51
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Just make it easy on yourself and call Pantaneous.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:01 PM   #52
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You could also call Anchor Marine in Seattle. Their offices are here and in Alaska but I believe they cover the entire US. Boat Insurance | Marine Insurance | Best Boat Insurance Rates
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:08 PM   #53
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You could also call Anchor Marine in Seattle. Their offices are here and in Alaska but I believe they cover the entire US. Boat Insurance | Marine Insurance | Best Boat Insurance Rates
Hey- that's me!

Yes, we do indeed have nationwide coverage- and then some. I've been in touch with fighterpilot and have discussed his needs and concerns...
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:15 PM   #54
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Just make it easy on yourself and call Pantaneous.
We were turned down by Pantaneous. They said, unless your vessel is valued over 500K (which we are not), you have to be north of 33 degrees during hurricane season.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:10 PM   #55
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I have a question...... We use Progressive for our insurance (boat and Car). Our boat (1983) is insured for $300,000 combined single limit with fuel/oil spill liability and a $375.00 deductible. We have an agreed value of $4,000 above our purchase price. This value will not depreciate. We were not required to get a survey. Why aren't more people using companies like Progressive and Geico? What is the advantage of a Boatus policy?
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:02 PM   #56
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Daddyo--Pantaneous turned me down. One liner, do to underwriting constrants they decline coverage.

Adelaide--In my case Progressive quote qas $600 higher and coverage wasn't as good. Maybe it is because I am in Florida.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:17 PM   #57
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Hey- that's me!
We've been with Anchor Marine since we bought the boat in 1998.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:15 PM   #58
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I have a question...... We use Progressive for our insurance (boat and Car). Our boat (1983) is insured for $300,000 combined single limit with fuel/oil spill liability and a $375.00 deductible. We have an agreed value of $4,000 above our purchase price. This value will not depreciate. We were not required to get a survey. Why aren't more people using companies like Progressive and Geico? What is the advantage of a Boatus policy?

I'll answer that one, based on my Safeco boat policy (for my pontoon boat at home)

Your car policy indicates what losses it will cover. Anything else is excluded.

A yacht policy indicates that it will cover all losses, with the only exceptions being listed in the policy.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
I have a question...... We use Progressive for our insurance (boat and Car). Our boat (1983) is insured for $300,000 combined single limit with fuel/oil spill liability and a $375.00 deductible. We have an agreed value of $4,000 above our purchase price. This value will not depreciate. We were not required to get a survey. Why aren't more people using companies like Progressive and Geico? What is the advantage of a Boatus policy?
Interesting...USAA farmed out our policy to Progressive back in the 2005 time frame. Shortly after that Progressive got out of the larger, older boat segment, so USAA then put us with Markel....surveys and slightly higher rates. I'll have to check back with Progressive. Thanks.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:10 PM   #60
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Interesting...USAA farmed out our policy to Progressive back in the 2005 time frame. Shortly after that Progressive got out of the larger, older boat segment, so USAA then put us with Markel....surveys and slightly higher rates. I'll have to check back with Progressive. Thanks.

You can do it online in about 10 minutes.....
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