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Old 07-08-2014, 06:08 PM   #21
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Sounds good- standing by.

I'm interested, as I'd like to review and ensure that my agents are doing right by the client at all times. I always appreciate feedback- it can only make us better.
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Old 07-08-2014, 06:47 PM   #22
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Peter, I have to say that my phone has been blowing up since your post. I am one of the owners of ALT Insurance Group. I have represented Premier Marine for many years. I am not sure if you are aware of all of the changes that have gone on since you lost your appointment with Premier Marine. I have the exact opposite experience with them than you have. There are many ways to read policy language. The policies vary greatly in coverage's as you know, as do the agencies. No policy covers items of maintenance. There has to be a determination of cause of loss in any case. I have never had Premier Marine not cover a claim that I thought they should have. They are not the only carrier that I use but their quality of service has me sending them a lot of business. I can call the CEO on his cell phone and speak with him any time there is an issue. That is invaluable to me. I find them to have accountability.I also am known to answer my phone 24/7 as I am a life long boater and realize how important these boats are to my insured's. I do in fact have a great many Tollycrafts insured. I had the underwriter's of Premier Marine come to our rendezvous. For 21 years I owned a Tollycraft. I wanted them to see the quality of the boats. On paper they may look older but when you see the love people have for them, you can also see how they are cared for. I know a great deal about Tollycrafts and spent the last 10 days of R.M. Tollefson's life with him. I have a long history with Tollycraft. In the LaConner fire one of my Tollycraft clients lost their boat. It was extremely sad for them. I had a check for the loss within a week. Premier Marine was outstanding! I talked with the CEO and he completely showed the utmost of good faith and responsibility. In fact the check came before my client was emotionally ready to receive it. There are a lot of carriers out there and of all the ones, that is where our boat is insured. That tells you the faith that I have in them. If anyone wants to talk off line and call regarding the policy language I would be glad to help. Mary LaFleur, ALT Insurance Group 360-899-4653
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:17 PM   #23
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In addition as my phone has not stopped ringing. Other coverage's to ask about are consequential damage, damage caused by vermin and sea life, is the running gear depreciated in a partial loss? Do you have separate limits for Protection and Indemnity and oil spill? Do you have an agreed value policy? Are you allowed to cruise to Alaska and if so how far and is there a portion of the year that you cannot? Lots of questions!
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:22 PM   #24
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Hi,. Mary,

Glad to hear that your experience with Premier is good- such was not the case with us. I am aware of Premier's current policy, as we keep it on file, just as we have current policies from many other companies on file. It's a great tool to better understand the market.

If you're going to put info out, you'll want to ensure it is correct. We terminated our appointment with Premier after many discussions with Troy- we never lost our appointment. As you were not privy to those conversations, you have nothing factual to say. If you were given info about our confidential relationship with Premier (the same one you enjoy), then we will be having further discussions of a legal nature.

THere is only one way to read a policy- as it stands. It is a legal document that defines the duties and responsibilities of each party privy to said contract. The agent or agency cannot interpret the policy in any other way, unless that agent/agency is ready to deal with an E&O issue. Interpretations, if any are left to the courts and lawyers.

Please note that my comments are that of my opinion, and not an attack on you:

"Respectfully, I cannot agree. ALT Insurance primarily represents Premier Insurance, a company bused in Vancouver, BC, and underwritten by Lloyds of London.

The Premier policy covers you for any “external” cause of loss subject to the exclusions vs. the any other marine insurance insurer that will pay any loss subject to the exclusions. The word “external” in the policy is a major loophole and we’ve seen many claims denied because the insured could not show that the cause was external (originating outside the vessel).

Just because an insurance company writes a large number of a brand of boat doesn't mean too much when the policy is pretty weak."


It is my opinion- if one chooses to write a policy with you, good on you. But, as I've stated for years on the many forums I'm involved in (as a boater and not an advertiser)- the client is strongly advised to read the policy to gain understanding of what it contains, and the agent should be able to explain the policy language so said client can understand it.

I think you may want to check the forum rules and with moderators with regards to your unsubtle advertising in your post...
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:52 PM   #25
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.... There are many ways to read policy language.... Mary LaFleur, ALT Insurance Group
With respect, it should have one meaning only. I`m wondering if you really meant what you said. If policy wording is open to a range of interpretations it should be reviewed by the issuer and amended to make it crystal clear and unambiguous to potential purchasers.
I don`t know about USA but here, imprecise clauses seeking to limit liability are read down when interpreted in Court, against the interest of the party seeking advantage from them.
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Old 07-08-2014, 08:01 PM   #26
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Bruce
Unfortunately, the imprecise clauses are used to give the insurance company a starting point in the negotiation. A lawsuit against your own insurance company is expensive.
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Old 07-08-2014, 08:13 PM   #27
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Marty, Sadly I think you are right. Here we have a "duty of utmost good faith"(distinct from the insured`s "duty of disclosure") in insurance. Some insurers were surprised to find it operates both ways.
I`m surprised an insurer would proclaim publicly policy wording can be read "many ways". Assuming it refers to their own policy, anyone buying the policy is clearly on notice of interesting times in the event of a claim.
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Old 07-08-2014, 11:23 PM   #28
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Not to get into the discussion between agencies taking place or any of the specifics expressed in this thread. Just a few comments from experience.

I am always very concerned with the contract entered into, the precise wording and it's meaning under law.

But I also find various insurers have reputations as to how they respond to claims. Some are far more likely to find a way to deny a claim than others. I know on auto insurance, one insurer that is wonderful to their customer but very difficult for the other party involved. Meanwhile another is better to the other party than they are even to their customer.

As to boat policies, on the whole they have a tremendous amount of exclusions. Now some of the insurers remove many of those exclusions for a price. We ended up with many restrictions removed and the cost of doing so far less than we anticipated. The basic policy doesn't change but many of the qualifiers may. For instance, I see so many people trying to get north of a certain point for all of hurricane season. They forget how many of us live south of that line. And that that requirement can be removed.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:44 AM   #29
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I think we all know that a contract is a contract. Until a cause of loss is determined, no one knows what applies. Once a damage survey is done then the cause of loss is established. It will either be a covered loss or the claim will be denied.

I have also seen courts award damages for items that are clearly not covered. I agree with B and B, I have many carriers and some like Premier Marine pay. Others do what they can to cut costs. That is why it is important to be with a carrier with a reputation for paying claims.

Peter, I am new to the forum and actually have heard about it for years from various clients. I just joined yesterday because many of my clients called. I joined to address your comments about my agency and Premier Marine. Now that I have joined I realize that it is very useful as a boater.

I think insurance is a great topic that has many issues that boat owner's need to be aware of. As with carriers, agencies also have very different ways of doing business. There are a lot of choices out there for boat owner's to explore.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:52 AM   #30
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I think we all know that a contract is a contract. Until a cause of loss is determined, no one knows what applies. Once a damage survey is done then the cause of loss is established. It will either be a covered loss or the claim will be denied.

I have also seen courts award damages for items that are clearly not covered. I agree with B and B, I have many carriers and some like Premier Marine pay. Others do what they can to cut costs. That is why it is important to be with a carrier with a reputation for paying claims.

Peter, I am new to the forum and actually have heard about it for years from various clients. I just joined yesterday because many of my clients called. I joined to address your comments about my agency and Premier Marine. Now that I have joined I realize that it is very useful as a boater.

I think insurance is a great topic that has many issues that boat owner's need to be aware of. As with carriers, agencies also have very different ways of doing business. There are a lot of choices out there for boat owner's to explore.
Which is why there's a lively debate....determining the cause of some losses IS sometimes rocket science and often "shortsightedness" / "cost cutting" on the side of insurance companies, "involvement on a personal not business level" on the side of insured, and the clueless intervention of the legal system all too often really plays a part in antagonism.

You might also review all the forum rules associated with being connected with the Marine Industry for profit so you have no problems...sorry if you already have cleared and know what you need from the owners of the site and moderator influence.
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:54 AM   #31
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Because of survey requirements, it is costly to change insurance companies which seems to benefit the companies. Year after year my company (Ace) sends me addendums to my policy (never a new policy which I can compare with the old) along with a premium increase. I assume the addendums benefit the company and they know it will cost more for me to change than to pay the increase.
I have never had a claim with this company, or any other that I have had over the years, so I have no way to judge how they will perform if I did have a claim.
What a way to run a railroad.....
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:35 PM   #32
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With respect, it should have one meaning only. I`m wondering if you really meant what you said. If policy wording is open to a range of interpretations it should be reviewed by the issuer and amended to make it crystal clear and unambiguous to potential purchasers.
I don`t know about USA but here, imprecise clauses seeking to limit liability are read down when interpreted in Court, against the interest of the party seeking advantage from them.
Correct. The very reason insurance contracts are so wordy and specify the duties of each party is legal precedent; the contract was challenged in a court, and the findings dictated then change (if any) to the contract language.

Insurance contracts are written to address and define the areas of coverage that the policy insures. Outside of those boundaries (policy jacket and endorsements that amend the policy), there is no coverage. This can be challenged in court if the insured desires- but the agent/agency cannot "interpret" what the coverage language may mean.
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Old 07-09-2014, 05:21 PM   #33
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Brooksie, you may find carriers in your area that do not require you to haul out. We have some here and others require it. Get the policy language from several carriers and choose the one you wish to have. Ask them about the survey requirements and how often they will be needed. The right coverage is worth having!
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Old 07-09-2014, 05:40 PM   #34
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Because of survey requirements, it is costly to change insurance companies which seems to benefit the companies. Year after year my company (Ace) sends me addendums to my policy (never a new policy which I can compare with the old) along with a premium increase. I assume the addendums benefit the company and they know it will cost more for me to change than to pay the increase.
I have never had a claim with this company, or any other that I have had over the years, so I have no way to judge how they will perform if I did have a claim.
What a way to run a railroad.....
You got me thinking. . . I recall reading that Boat US was being acquired by Berkshire Hathaway. . . hmm ok. And, like you, I also didn't receive a complete policy statement from Boat US when I renewed this year???? Just a declaration page, an Addendum and a notice that they were switching underwriters. So I called them and they immediately emailed the policy to me.

What did I discover. . . the underwriter is no longer CNA and is now National Liability and Fire Insurance Company. . . . yes another Berkshire Hathaway company.

So Warren Buffett. . . I guess you got me. . . you own my boat ins. and underwriter, my Heinz ketchup, my Coca Cola pop, my American Express card, Dairy Queen ice cream, even my Fruit of the Loom briefs. What's left???

PS: Brooksie - Berkshire Hathaway owns an interest in Burlington Northern (BNSF) too. So I guess you could say they know how to run a railroad LOL
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Old 07-09-2014, 06:03 PM   #35
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All I can add is that this March I was in the same boat as the OP. Having to insure a 30 year old boat in FL made my head hurt. The contract language was like comparing apples to oranges to grapefruit to carrots! Pay attention to what is excluded and "consequential damage". Real eye opener for me.
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:09 PM   #36
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I think we all know that a contract is a contract....
Glad that`s resolved.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:31 AM   #37
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... I recall reading that Boat US was being acquired by Berkshire Hathaway. . .
That could be a good thing. Our policy is with Seaworthy Insurance, another Berkshire Hathaway CO. We couldn't be happier (other than the premiums).
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:01 AM   #38
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That could be a good thing. Our policy is with Seaworthy Insurance, another Berkshire Hathaway CO. We couldn't be happier (other than the premiums).
I would consider Hathaway ownership a positive as unlike many investors they buy to build, grow and hold. The companies they invest in generally prosper. How many of you knew of Geico prior to Hathaway purchasing them in 1996? Now I do speak as a former employee of a Hathaway entity, although nothing to do with insurance, but admit to some prejudice. But for the most part, companies acquired by Hathaway have prospered.
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:46 AM   #39
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How about this:

My boat in FL, such a pain to get complete insurance, I just got 300K liability. Cost about $100.
My boat on Cape Cod, I have complete insurance on and the 300K liability portion is about $200.

High value "targets" for liability in Fl must be 10X greater than Cape Cod yet premium is 1/2. That makes no sense to me.
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:51 AM   #40
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How about this:

My boat in FL, such a pain to get complete insurance, I just got 300K liability. Cost about $100.
My boat on Cape Cod, I have complete insurance on and the 300K liability portion is about $200.

High value "targets" for liability in Fl must be 10X greater than Cape Cod yet premium is 1/2. That makes no sense to me.
Try NJ the "Suing State"...formerly "The Garden State"...may be higher than Mass.
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