Boat design vs actual use?

[Bruce B]

... Value is more than just the tangibles and design match to user is more than just the boat itself.

There is a little lesson in marketing being given here...
Interesting!
Bruce

 

[sunchaser]

You also see a lot of Range Rovers and Hummers in your area. I think there are people who genuinely consider them both to be the best, the dream vehicles. .

Can't go boat shopping in the desert so yesterday with my SIL we went car shopping. No, we did not look at Kias or Escapes, he wants a Mercedes G wagon. We spotted a very nice lightly used one with not scratch on it. Gosh was he happy that the previous owner had not used it for its intended purpose.

More importantly he opined on what his business would have to do for him to be able to buy a G wagon. He is that kind of a guy, he will make it happen in about 6 months.

High end cars, nice boats, light airplanes, horses or architecturally nicely done homes - they all exist for a reason and in one form or another have for tens of thousands of years. That innate desire to excel, move forward, have attractive mates and realize aspirations is the essence of mankind. Without it we perish.

Now about that Nordhavn, Marlow or Devlin --

 

[smitty477]

"The point is that if these destinations are desirable and time is limited then a full displacement boat is limiting. Thus the original question about design vs use...
Bruce"


Hello Bruce - We are in your same area and have had the same issues. For us the best answer was to be able to cruise at or about 20 mph so that our 'daily' range was easily 100 miles. This gave us fairly easy access to most all of the areas we chose to visit often within a day or two ... alternately we can and did often slow down when that option was a preferred choice.
At least that has worked well for us out of Northport LI over the past 25+ years.

 

[Art]

"Who wants a truck or SUV that can't do more than is ever required of it? Who wants an automobile that can't go faster into traffic than is normally needed or hold more passengers than usually brought along?? Who wants a boat that can't take bigger seas than should/would be encountered... or.... offer more comfortable living design than is usually required???"


While I can understand the thoughts of buying 'extra' IMHO I have learned to carefully evaluate when is needed and buy what fits that 'spec' well. If over time if the 'spec' changes than a new one can be created and a change to a newer vehicle/boat to match that updated need or goal.
It has worked well with cars , trucks, boats , homes to not have things like speed, size and capability that will not be utilized as the time to maintain, costs and size clearly will affect the 'time of use' and aggravation level attached to that item.
Best bet is to plan well so you are much more likely to use and enjoy the item at hand.
Happy new year and have fun boating

smitty - I fully understand your input/feelings. By owning items that are somewhat bigger/faster or more comfortable than what is usually required... I don't mean way bigger - I do mean at least a little bit bigger! My road vehicles each have more horsepower than I usually need. Then again, it is good to have 360 hp. under the hood of my classic 1967 Buick Wildcat for hitting passing gear when needed on highways to get away from drivers that may seem out of hand regarding their own driving skills.

Also, we usually do not fill our house bedrooms but once a year during Christmas. For that purpose it is good to have a home a bit larger than we usually need.

And, our Tollycraft can comfortably cruise at 16/17 knots with 22/23 knot top end. However, 97% of the time we cruise at 6.5 knots... a bit below hull speed (i.e. 7.58 knots). The plenty of extra power has sometimes over the years come in handy for getting somewhere fast on plane at 17 knots during a cruise. 23 knot WOT for a minute or three has gotten me quickly out of trouble twice.

So yes, I remain fixed on purchasing items that can do a bit more than the normal requirements of day to day life.

 

[BandB]

The point is that if these destinations are desirable and time is limited then a full displacement boat is limiting. Thus the original question about design vs use...
Bruce

That's where 7 knots and point in life become huge factors. Retired, no schedule, then many find 7 knots acceptable. However, a couple with kids, work and school, it sure limits you and most want more speed. We have time personally, but just don't like going slow. However, even if we did, our friends and family work and have schedules. 7 knots doesn't allow a weekend trip to Bimini or a three day weekend trip to Key West. It doesn't allow going to Miami or West Palm on a day trip.

 

[smitty477]

"Retired, no schedule, then many find 7 knots acceptable."


Agreed - but is some areas many of the trips folks may like to take will put them in a situation where they need to buck a 3-5 knot current - that makes the 7 knots more like 2-4 knots. Many new boaters fail to look at those parameters.

 

[David Rive]

Bruce B - great thread! Interestingly my wife and I have sort of landed in the same place you are.

In my late 20's (the moment I could barely afford it) I bought a new Niagara 35 (that's a cruising sloop). I dreamed of crossing the Pacific, and named the boat Tahiti. I took every sailing course I course I could find right up to celestial navigation and offshore cruising. That was in the early 80's. Then life got in the way - started a business, couldn't afford the boat anymore, etc. Sold he, and for 30 years my only boat was a canoe. Fast forward to my 60's ...

Retirement looms and I start dreaming about boats again. Now I have a few bucks, and a different perspective. Too lazy to sail, and the admiral is frightened by heeling, and I no longer want to cross the Pacific. On a fishing trip in the Keys a few years ago, the guide says "what you need is a trawler." Huh? So I start researching, and discover TF! So for the last 1.5 years our "learner boat" has been Waterthrush - an Ocean Alexander 38. What did the admiral and I learn? Don't like flying bridges, don't really need 2 engines, and do want an aft cockpit, for fishing and sitting with a cocktail.

So we ended up at the American Tug 34. I guess we have "Reverse Twofootitis". Our new baby is being surveyed tomorrow! We will move aboard her late next summer, and become snowbirds for 6 months a year. We want to base near Fort Myers but mainly spend time in the Keys and the Bahamas.

Just one guy's journey.

 

[smitty477]

"Also, we usually do not fill our house bedrooms but once a year during Christmas. For that purpose it is good to have a home a bit larger than we usually need."

I know the problem. I find that similar issue is often solved by 'renting' the item needed if it is very short term and only once or twice a year. At times we have solved for that one by either 'renting' hotel space for the folks arriving or by 'renting' a destination for all for us that will enhance the event.
Similarly when we moved to a large trailerable boat we had a large diesel pick up to make the trips to the ramp. Years later we were in a situation where we only needed to tow a larger boat twice a year - so we rented the tow vehicle on some occasions or just paid a boat mover for the limited tow. Having a smaller capacity pickup with the tows we do lately was a great move for matching the vehicle to what is does 99% of the time.


"The plenty of extra power has sometimes over the years come in handy for getting somewhere fast on plane at 17 knots during a cruise"
If that speed fits into your required goals 99% of the time then it makes perfect sense to have that capability. If on the other hand you only needed that once or twice a season there may be better ways to solve for the overall fun part of boating.


"it is good to have 360 hp. under the hood of my classic 1967 Buick Wildcat for hitting passing gear when needed on highways to get away from drivers that may seem out of hand regarding their own driving skills."
I do not see how this is a good solution to a safety situation but maybe it works for you. Most all of the 'high powered' cars I have owned or built were mostly utilized at a track where the capability would be potentially used.

 

[ksanders]

While there are many expensive boats rarely used I believe with most it's not choosing the wrong boat, it's no ego, it's one simple thing. TIME. Most working people today don't have time for their leisure pursuits. In the US especially, they don't get long vacations and many executives never take one. Time is worth far more than money and often much harder to come by. There are many reasons people don't have time, but most evolve around people caught in a rat race where they feel the must do certain things. I can give you many jobs in many companies where working a sane schedule on a reasonable workload that still provides you time with your family is impossible and will get you fired. How do we find the nerve to say no to those jobs in a time in which jobs can be difficult to find? As people rise in positions in their companies, find themselves with more income, they find themselves with even less time. So, they dream, they buy a boat, but they don't find a way to make enough time in their lives to enjoy it. Our country was known for a great work ethic, but in today's world, that work ethic is taken advantage of. Then there is the great lie that corporations have convinced themselves of how having such productive people putting in so many hours makes them great. Well, it may seem to, but exhausted employees with conflicts at home, inadequate family time, can work all the hours they want but they won't do the job as well. When I was young and single, I worked 60-70 hours a week. When I met my wife, that became a maximum of 45. When young and single I didn't take vacations. With my wife I took every vacation day I could. I was willing to be a poorer employee if that's what it took, but was amazed how much better I was when my life was in balance.

Sorry, I went a bit beyond my original intent, but so many of the unused boats do represent the difference between dreams and reality, the difference between the dream of Time and reality of not having it.

Excellent post!

I see guys that are proud that they have 400 hours of annual leave on the books!

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce B - great thread! Interestingly my wife and I have sort of landed in the same place you are.

In my late 20's (the moment I could barely afford it) I bought a new Niagara 35 (that's a cruising sloop). I dreamed of crossing the Pacific, and named the boat Tahiti. I took every sailing course I course I could find right up to celestial navigation and offshore cruising. That was in the early 80's. Then life got in the way - started a business, couldn't afford the boat anymore, etc. Sold he, and for 30 years my only boat was a canoe. Fast forward to my 60's ...

Retirement looms and I start dreaming about boats again. Now I have a few bucks, and a different perspective. Too lazy to sail, and the admiral is frightened by heeling, and I no longer want to cross the Pacific. On a fishing trip in the Keys a few years ago, the guide says "what you need is a trawler." Huh? So I start researching, and discover TF! So for the last 1.5 years our "learner boat" has been Waterthrush - an Ocean Alexander 38. What did the admiral and I learn? Don't like flying bridges, don't really need 2 engines, and do want an aft cockpit, for fishing and sitting with a cocktail.

So we ended up at the American Tug 34. I guess we have "Reverse Twofootitis". Our new baby is being surveyed tomorrow! We will move aboard her late next summer, and become snowbirds for 6 months a year. We want to base near Fort Myers but mainly spend time in the Keys and the Bahamas.

Just one guy's journey.

Great boat David! Hopefully we hear of your experiences here.
I still have to live vicariously for the next few months...
Bruce

 

[Art]

"Also, we usually do not fill our house bedrooms but once a year during Christmas. For that purpose it is good to have a home a bit larger than we usually need."

I know the problem. I find that similar issue is often solved by 'renting' the item needed if it is very short term and only once or twice a year. At times we have solved for that one by either 'renting' hotel space for the folks arriving or by 'renting' a destination for all for us that will enhance the event.
Similarly when we moved to a large trailerable boat we had a large diesel pick up to make the trips to the ramp. Years later we were in a situation where we only needed to tow a larger boat twice a year - so we rented the tow vehicle on some occasions or just paid a boat mover for the limited tow. Having a smaller capacity pickup with the tows we do lately was a great move for matching the vehicle to what is does 99% of the time.


"The plenty of extra power has sometimes over the years come in handy for getting somewhere fast on plane at 17 knots during a cruise"
If that speed fits into your required goals 99% of the time then it makes perfect sense to have that capability. If on the other hand you only needed that once or twice a season there may be better ways to solve for the overall fun part of boating.


"it is good to have 360 hp. under the hood of my classic 1967 Buick Wildcat for hitting passing gear when needed on highways to get away from drivers that may seem out of hand regarding their own driving skills."
I do not see how this is a good solution to a safety situation but maybe it works for you. Most all of the 'high powered' cars I have owned or built were mostly utilized at a track where the capability would be potentially used.

Ok, OK - I'll admit it... I hit passing gear in our Wildcat more often than actually needed. But, it is fun to hear that big beast roar!!

 

[Fletcher500]

The speed aspect was a factor for us. My wife and I are in are still working, so we have limited windows to travel.


In so-cal, you generally have to travel a long distance to get to a destination. IE, the offshore islands, or the next marina up the coast is often 30 to 50 miles one way. And the Pacific can get snotty as many on here know, including our offshore winds that ramp up quickly.


I am the slow guy on the freeway that people get mad at, so I enjoy going slow on the boat, hull speed, and enjoying the view. However, the ability to get places faster when needed, and having the power to ramp up quickly on occasion is nice.


Longer term upon retirement, it will be a different boat, for a slower pace. At this point, I am just happy to be on the water whether its on a boat or a surfboard.

 

[BandB]

Excellent post!

I see guys that are proud that they have 400 hours of annual leave on the books!

We're awful employers then I guess as we require everyone take their vacations. If, for some reason, they end the year with some to carry over (which requires special approval and, often, a lecture by HR), then they must use it by March 31.

 

[Baker]

The point is that if these destinations are desirable and time is limited then a full displacement boat is limiting. Thus the original question about design vs use...
Bruce

My boats have gotten bigger and faster. My first powerboat was the P29 in my signature. Great boat. But too slow. I do not always have complete control of my schedule. There might be a weekend when I get in at noon on Saturday and want to catch up with my boating group somewhere. In a fast boat, I can. In that Prairie, I would just have to write it off or go somewhere closer. So speed is a big deal in my boating world because time is not always unlimited. I do look forward to slowing down when time allows it. A DeFever 49CPMY is still at that top of the list and right in line with what I like in a boat. But for now, I will move along in planing boat.

 

[bayview]

every boat I have owned spent far more time at the dock than underway. So I would say all of them were very overbuilt for actual use.

 

[Art]

every boat I have owned spent far more time at the dock than underway. So I would say all of them were very overbuilt for actual use.

IMO - Only live-a-board boats that consistently cut the waves during ongoing sequences of travel excursions can be termed as boats pretty much used to fullest extent.

Every boat I've ever been associated with has spent much time alone at dock, on the hard, of trailered into yard. Used only when I feel like it and can find the time. That's because I've never [yet] been a fulltime live-a-board boat owner. I'd say that same use technique equates to +/- 95% of all boats.

 

[BandB]

Setting something being used 100% of the time as a criteria of full usage makes no sense. No one uses their house 100% of the time unless they're housebound and then at any moment many rooms not in use. We use our cars very little. On average our cars are driven less than an hour a day. And vs. design, no boats were designed to be run 24 hours or even 8 hours every day.

Most recreational boats are designed for moderate use.

 

[Art]

Most recreational boats are designed for moderate use.

However, well built ones can be used much more than moderately (whatever that means) so long as good maintenance and kind-usage procedures are held to.

 

[BandB]

However, well built ones can be used much more than moderately (whatever that means) so long as good maintenance and kind-usage procedures are held to.

Depending on one's definition of moderate. However, even when cruising we don't normally move every day. I'd say we're heavy users by comparison to most. However, the design isn't like it is of commercial boats in use every day.

 

[AusCan]

There have only been a couple of posters admitting to being over-equipped. Most of us have perfectly suited boats.

I might have to adjust my response to under equipped as I'm currently waiting on more favourable weather to cross Investigator Strait. The boat not only has to be capable but it has to be able to make all passengers feel safe and comfortable.
The admiral wasn't impressed with yesterday's 3 meter seas.

 

[BandB]

There have only been a couple of posters admitting to being over-equipped. Most of us have perfectly suited boats.

I might have to adjust my response to under equipped as I'm currently waiting on more favourable weather to cross Investigator Strait. The boat not only has to be capable but it has to be able to make all passengers feel safe and comfortable.
The admiral wasn't impressed with yesterday's 3 meter seas.

Great point. The boat is able to handle far more than the passengers will be comfortable in. That's the real test is how comfortable can the boat be in the seas I'm likely to see. I'm generally going to go for more comfort than is necessarily needed.

 

[Art]

As side note to boat usage... and, Just For S&G...


I'd like to be seat belted into Captains seat and have about six (6) hours un restrained use of a self righting CG rescue boat. Now, that could be fun in white water!

 

[LarryM]

Man is this ever a timely subject for me. After 5 years of owning my little trawler Boomarang, I have come to the conclusion it no longer suits my needs. In fact, it honestly never did. It was so unique, I rationalized it as an ideal boat, and imagined what I could do with it when I retired. Then I decided to continue working a few more years, and my boating is mostly limited to solo day-trips and weekends. The closest destination of any interest, Galveston, is 25 NM which is presently about 8 hours round trip. Not even enough time to stop for lunch or a little sightseeing.

I started looking for diesel express cruisers, but the choices below 35' in my price range was very limited in this area. Mainship Pilots seemed to meet my requirements, but there has only been one locally for sale in the last 6 months.

A month ago, I was walking past a local broker's dock and spied a new boat. Since they specialize in sportfishing boats, I almost never look their way. It was a Wellcraft 3300 Coastal twin diesel express cruiser. It had fresh Cummins power, new generator, and was otherwise completely original. I did a little research and found it cruises comfortably at 20+ kts and will top 30 kts. The range is about 300 nm at cruise. According to forums, they also handle well and are quite seaworthy.

The more I read, the more I realized it seemingly met all of my needs, but with that tower, I would never have considered it.

As you can probably guess, It is now mine and Boomarang is on the market. As I write this, a fresh Garmin suite is being installed from top to bottom.

I am really looking forward to boating with a more suitable vessel. I will have many more destinations within range, and I might even learn to fish now. A couple of my brothers and a number of my dockmates are pretty excited about the possibility of a little offshore fishing.

Ok, since this is sort of a fishing boat, it can technically trawl, right? I know, 'Trawler' is a stretch, but I will still hang with my friends at Trawler Forum.

 

[Art]

Yo, Larry...

Really nice boat - Enjoy!

Just cause you have this boat does not mean you at all need leave TF. This could also be called Power-Boat Forum... seeing as of many members (pretty much me included) do not have what purists believe is the make up of a Pleasure-Cruiser "Trawler".

 

[markpierce]

Yo, Larry...

Really nice boat - Enjoy!

Just cause you have this boat does not mean you at all need leave TF. This could also be called Power-Boat Forum... seeing as of many members (pretty much me included) do not have what purists believe is the make up of a Pleasure-Cruiser "Trawler".

That's for sure!

 

[Bruce B]

Man is this ever a timely subject for me. After 5 years of owning my little trawler Boomarang, I have come to the conclusion it no longer suits my needs. In fact, it honestly never did. It was so unique, I rationalized it as an ideal boat, and imagined what I could do with it when I retired. Then I decided to continue working a few more years, and my boating is mostly limited to solo day-trips and weekends. The closest destination of any interest, Galveston, is 25 NM which is presently about 8 hours round trip. Not even enough time to stop for lunch or a little sightseeing.

I started looking for diesel express cruisers, but the choices below 35' in my price range was very limited in this area. Mainship Pilots seemed to meet my requirements, but there has only been one locally for sale in the last 6 months.

A month ago, I was walking past a local broker's dock and spied a new boat. Since they specialize in sportfishing boats, I almost never look their way. It was a Wellcraft 3300 Coastal twin diesel express cruiser. It had fresh Cummins power, new generator, and was otherwise completely original. I did a little research and found it cruises comfortably at 20+ kts and will top 30 kts. The range is about 300 nm at cruise. According to forums, they also handle well and are quite seaworthy.

The more I read, the more I realized it seemingly met all of my needs, but with that tower, I would never have considered it.

As you can probably guess, It is now mine and Boomarang is on the market. As I write this, a fresh Garmin suite is being installed from top to bottom.

I am really looking forward to boating with a more suitable vessel. I will have many more destinations within range, and I might even learn to fish now. A couple of my brothers and a number of my dockmates are pretty excited about the possibility of a little offshore fishing.

Ok, since this is sort of a fishing boat, it can technically trawl, right? I know, 'Trawler' is a stretch, but I will still hang with my friends at Trawler Forum.

The whole "Trawler" thing gets way too much air time.
I think of it as more of a mind set than anything else. Fast, slow, single, twins, gasoline, diesel...whatever!
It is more a style of use than anything else in my book and even if your use is different than mine there are lots of overlapping issues to discuss. That is what makes this all so interesting.
Enjoy your new boat, I'm sure it will be a blast.
Bruce

 

[psneeld]

My second liveaboard was a sportfish.

This liveaboard mght have been too had fuel not been headed for $5/gallon plus when I was looking 5 vyears ago.

If I could bet on fuel costs staying low, speed would definitely creep back into my equation.

 

[Bruce B]

My second liveaboard was a sportfish.

This liveaboard mght have been too had fuel not been headed for $5/gallon plus when I was looking 5 vyears ago.

If I could bet on fuel costs staying low, speed would definitely creep back into my equation.

I know nothing about sportfish types, just how thirsty is a typical 40' sportfish at speed?
Bruce

 

[ranger58sb]

A month ago, I was walking past a local broker's dock and spied a new boat. Since they specialize in sportfishing boats, I almost never look their way. It was a Wellcraft 3300 Coastal twin diesel express cruiser. It had fresh Cummins power, new generator, and was otherwise completely original. I did a little research and found it cruises comfortably at 20+ kts and will top 30 kts. The range is about 300 nm at cruise. According to forums, they also handle well and are quite seaworthy.

Ok, since this is sort of a fishing boat, it can technically trawl, right? I know, 'Trawler' is a stretch, but I will still hang with my friends at Trawler Forum.

Nice boat. Our previous boat was a slightly newer version, a 2001 330 Coastal. It was twin gas, but we got such a great deal on it (new) that I decided to give that a try... and that worked well enough. Would have been even better with diesel.

Trawl away...

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

I know nothing about sportfish types, just how thirsty is a typical 40' sportfish at speed?
Bruce

it is all over the map....but my example would be my last.

It got 1 nmpg...... 20 knots at 20 Gph.

Very similar to many others....but lighter, expresses did better but less living accomodations....

Heavier, or faster cabin models run at their design speeds could be much less than 1 nmpg.