Boat design vs actual use?

[MichaelB1969]

Good question. While I still lust after a Nordhavn, Selene or KK full-displacement trawler, it would not be an ideal boat for us now. Instead, we bought a semi-displacement trawler (Beneteau Swift Trawler 44).

We felt that it would be a better boat to explore San Francisco Bay and the Delta, as well as make occasional trips down the coast to Half Moon Bay, Santa Cruz and beyond. And while it isn't a speedboat, it can cruise very comfortably at 2x to 3x the speed (weather permitting) of similarly sized full-displacement trawlers. As a working couple, we appreciate the fact that we'll be able to to make day or weekend trips that would likely take days or weeks in a slower boat.

We are still interested in the passagemaker, but for when we retire in 10 to 12 years.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Bruce B wrote;
"So, is this offshore capable mindset prevailant here too? I see lots of full displacement vs semi displacement discussions happening on this forum and I wonder the same thing. How many people simply like the boat and then rationalize the design? "

The talk about FD and blue sea boats is just talk. FD trawlers like Krogens and Willards draw little if any price advantage. People don't want them any more than other boats.
And then thread after thread about range and fuel burn .. not to mention running a twin on one engine. Go figure.

 

[markpierce]

Diesel Ducks had great appeal, but the extra $200K was not worth it since I'm a gunkholing, marina-to-marina, and day-sailing boater anyway.

 

[BruceK]

Within reason, I take no issue with buying a more capable boat than needed for everyday use, one adverse day you might be glad of that capacity.

 

[BandB]

I agree with no issues for those who select a boat capable of more than their normal use, as long as it isn't also capable of less. For instance, those who buy a sea capable boat for coastal cruising but they also like to run outside. People cruise the coast differently with some doing it only on the ICW and others running outside most often.

With every boat I've ever owned I've selected based on a specific list of needs. Now, I do own a boat that wasn't designed with our use for it in mind. However, it matches up to that use very well. It had a more consistent match to our needs than many boats that are far more often considered better for where we use it.

I also see people who do let appearance come into play, which we really don't. However, I see nothing wrong with doing so. If you like it, then that's great. I know a couple right now who are in the buying process. Now, the ideal boat for their use is just one that they don't like the looks of. They admit it's otherwise a perfect match. So, they continue the search.

 

[Bruce B]

There are some interesting responses here.
On the subject of looks, I believe that life is too short for an ugly boat!
If it doesn't please you, keep looking, by all means!
Bruce

 

[CWO KPM]

My new to me Senator looks like she should run 25+ knots.
Big ass keel and 135 Perkins says different. It's what we want[emoji106]

 

[Cottontop]

"Shopping" doesn't have to end, of course. We've identified a few more features we wouldn't mind having if a "lottery boat" hoves into view. We'll cross that bridge when (if) we come to it. It'd probably come sooner if I ever remember to play...

-Chris

Remembering to play will increase your odds of winning hardly at all.

 

[CWO KPM]

As God told the blond woman, first you have to buy a ticket. Never have myself.

 

[dhays]

As God told the blond woman, first you have to buy a ticket. Never have myself.

+1

 

[Nomad Willy]

Plus two

 

[AusCan]

I think I made a very suitable choice (with some help from members of this forum).

There are times I push the boat close to its limits (or my limits) but for the money it is a great match. I still keep an eye on the new boat listings locally and haven't seen a better fit come up for sale.

I think the fact that I probably use the boat more than anyone else in the marina is a sign of a good fit.

 

[Baker]

I own a relatively cheap Carver and use the **** out of it....any other questions???...

Seriously, it is always about the dream versus reality. My dream....a 300ft megayacht with the Swedish Bikini team as crew. The reality is I can't afford it. The reason boats sit unused in marinas all over the country is that the dream and reality are too far apart. You don't "make the dream a reality". You make your reality fit the dream. And the reality is we all have a limit to our resources.

 

[eyschulman]

There are some interesting responses here.
On the subject of looks, I believe that life is too short for an ugly boat!
If it doesn't please you, keep looking, by all means!
Bruce

If anything my one off very expensive boat was built around our present use pattern and over 55 boating years of experience with over 20 boats ownership. You bet my idea of a good looking boat was part of the deal. You bet I take pride in displaying my years of boating in the build. Both I and the builder consider his work a form of functional marine art. I do however understand that by my judgment and many others there are boats that may be considered ugly and that can also be a mater of what color lenses one sees the boat with. Some boat designs have to live with the trade offs of living space verses looks and function and some functional factors may not look good. We makes our chooses based on what's important to us. The guy who buys a boat for pride and show at the YC well that's what is important to him.

 

[Fletcher500]

I own a relatively cheap Carver and use the **** out of it....any other questions???...

That sums it up well.

I paddled a kayak from the mainland to Catalina, which is about 30 miles. With that said, people swim the same channel, in speedos, a neoprene cap and some Vaseline on their skin. Others cross oceans in literal bathtubs. Its all relative.

As long as we are having fun.

 

[CWO KPM]

Or woman. But they can be expensive [emoji6]

 

[CPseudonym]

Or woman. But they can be expensive [emoji6]

If it floats, flys or ....well you get the idea, it's cheaper to rent than to buy.

 

[hmason]

Ever hear of a creek in Annapolis MD called "Ego Alley?" 'nuff said.

 

[BandB]

While there are many expensive boats rarely used I believe with most it's not choosing the wrong boat, it's no ego, it's one simple thing. TIME. Most working people today don't have time for their leisure pursuits. In the US especially, they don't get long vacations and many executives never take one. Time is worth far more than money and often much harder to come by. There are many reasons people don't have time, but most evolve around people caught in a rat race where they feel the must do certain things. I can give you many jobs in many companies where working a sane schedule on a reasonable workload that still provides you time with your family is impossible and will get you fired. How do we find the nerve to say no to those jobs in a time in which jobs can be difficult to find? As people rise in positions in their companies, find themselves with more income, they find themselves with even less time. So, they dream, they buy a boat, but they don't find a way to make enough time in their lives to enjoy it. Our country was known for a great work ethic, but in today's world, that work ethic is taken advantage of. Then there is the great lie that corporations have convinced themselves of how having such productive people putting in so many hours makes them great. Well, it may seem to, but exhausted employees with conflicts at home, inadequate family time, can work all the hours they want but they won't do the job as well. When I was young and single, I worked 60-70 hours a week. When I met my wife, that became a maximum of 45. When young and single I didn't take vacations. With my wife I took every vacation day I could. I was willing to be a poorer employee if that's what it took, but was amazed how much better I was when my life was in balance.

Sorry, I went a bit beyond my original intent, but so many of the unused boats do represent the difference between dreams and reality, the difference between the dream of Time and reality of not having it.

 

[cardude01]

While there are many expensive boats rarely used I believe with most it's not choosing the wrong boat, it's no ego, it's one simple thing. TIME. Most working people today don't have time for their leisure pursuits. In the US especially, they don't get long vacations and many executives never take one. Time is worth far more than money and often much harder to come by. There are many reasons people don't have time, but most evolve around people caught in a rat race where they feel the must do certain things. I can give you many jobs in many companies where working a sane schedule on a reasonable workload that still provides you time with your family is impossible and will get you fired. How do we find the nerve to say no to those jobs in a time in which jobs can be difficult to find? As people rise in positions in their companies, find themselves with more income, they find themselves with even less time. So, they dream, they buy a boat, but they don't find a way to make enough time in their lives to enjoy it. Our country was known for a great work ethic, but in today's world, that work ethic is taken advantage of. Then there is the great lie that corporations have convinced themselves of how having such productive people putting in so many hours makes them great. Well, it may seem to, but exhausted employees with conflicts at home, inadequate family time, can work all the hours they want but they won't do the job as well. When I was young and single, I worked 60-70 hours a week. When I met my wife, that became a maximum of 45. When young and single I didn't take vacations. With my wife I took every vacation day I could. I was willing to be a poorer employee if that's what it took, but was amazed how much better I was when my life was in balance.



Sorry, I went a bit beyond my original intent, but so many of the unused boats do represent the difference between dreams and reality, the difference between the dream of Time and reality of not having it.

++1

 

[Baker]

While there are many expensive boats rarely used I believe with most it's not choosing the wrong boat, it's no ego, it's one simple thing. TIME. Most working people today don't have time for their leisure pursuits. In the US especially, they don't get long vacations and many executives never take one. Time is worth far more than money and often much harder to come by. There are many reasons people don't have time, but most evolve around people caught in a rat race where they feel the must do certain things. I can give you many jobs in many companies where working a sane schedule on a reasonable workload that still provides you time with your family is impossible and will get you fired. How do we find the nerve to say no to those jobs in a time in which jobs can be difficult to find? As people rise in positions in their companies, find themselves with more income, they find themselves with even less time. So, they dream, they buy a boat, but they don't find a way to make enough time in their lives to enjoy it. Our country was known for a great work ethic, but in today's world, that work ethic is taken advantage of. Then there is the great lie that corporations have convinced themselves of how having such productive people putting in so many hours makes them great. Well, it may seem to, but exhausted employees with conflicts at home, inadequate family time, can work all the hours they want but they won't do the job as well. When I was young and single, I worked 60-70 hours a week. When I met my wife, that became a maximum of 45. When young and single I didn't take vacations. With my wife I took every vacation day I could. I was willing to be a poorer employee if that's what it took, but was amazed how much better I was when my life was in balance.

Sorry, I went a bit beyond my original intent, but so many of the unused boats do represent the difference between dreams and reality, the difference between the dream of Time and reality of not having it.

Very much agree. My last sentence was about "resources". I almost defined it but left it alone. One of the biggest resources, like you said, is time. People do buy boats and then realize they don't have the time to use them.

 

[Art]

IMHO

There's nothing wrong with having mechanical or other life-time assisting items with just a bit more power, features or capabilities than you will likely ever use. In fact.... that sort of item choice can be and often is proven to be a smart move.

I.e.: Who wants a truck or SUV that can't do more than is ever required of it? Who wants an automobile that can't go faster into traffic than is normally needed or hold more passengers than usually brought along?? Who wants a boat that can't take bigger seas than should/would be encountered... or.... offer more comfortable living design than is usually required??? A too small house - I don't think so!

In other words - I believe in purchasing items at least a bit bigger and better than what you feel your normal use requirements will be or may become. And, if your requirements do begin to outpace what ever it is you are using then sell it and get a bit bigger size than what your new requirements are.

I don't mean to go over board (pun intended) about having huge items just so you can feel prestigious or "successful'. And, I don't mean to get BIG items just to show off. I do mean to say it is OK to have some really usable items that are big, strong, comfortable enough so they won't be put aside because they are found to simply not measure up to meeting your actual need.

That said: For what we do at this time of life regarding boating and life in general itself... Our Tolly is just what we need and want for a boat!

May all boaters be just as lucky!! I feel many on TF are.

 

[Bruce B]

Bigger, faster and more powerful are only part of the equation.

In my original post I was thinking more about design attributes that might be wasted on an owner who uses a boat for other than intended purposes.
Let's build on BandB's bullseye observation about available time vs "the dream".

If I am dreaming big, I might envision a boat that can cross long distances of ocean in comfort and style. Say that this dream steers me to consider a beautifully designed, beautifully constructed long range cruiser of the full displacement variety. The perfect design to fulfill the dream of cruising to far off places in the comfort of your own yacht.

Let's say that I actually act on this dream. I have the means and desire so it is off to the boat show. I pick a design, colors, options, electronics and before I know it, I have my dream boat.
She is a thing of beauty for all to admire, built as well as any boat made.

Now, let's look at the reality of available time vs the design of the boat.
She may be the best, safest, most comfortable, stabilized, non turbocharged, fuel efficient boat for getting to Bermuda but...I don't have a month of time available to use it that way, at lest not before I retire...

What I have are a few long weekends available this summer and a 2 week vacation in July. If we keep the boat in Newport RI, we probably head to Cuttyhunk, Martha's Vinyard and maybe to Block Island for a few days before returning home at a leisurely 7 knots. On a typical weekend, the boat will stay in the slip or maybe take a little cruise through the harbor as there isn't really enough time to get to Block if we simply have to come home tomorrow.
In reality, this boat will travel 200 miles this season and it will not be utilizing its best design attributes.

This is an example of mismatched design and reality.
Again, I'm not in any way criticizing the owner of this boat or their reality. If they derive pleasure...life is good!
Bruce

 

[Peter B]

I own a relatively cheap Carver and use the **** out of it....any other questions???...

Seriously, it is always about the dream versus reality......The reason boats sit unused in marinas all over the country is that the dream and reality are too far apart. You don't "make the dream a reality". You make your reality fit the dream. And the reality is we all have a limit to our resources.

John, I reckon you just summed the whole issue up, right there...

 

[Scubawpb]

I live in the Palm Beach area and see many beautiful Nordhavns of all sizes and like the OP, I've wondered if these boats are being used for their intended purpose/design. Either there are a lot of adventurous people around here with the financial means to afford these boats or they are purchased as a status symbol of sorts. Maybe someday there will be a big supply of barely used Nordhavns for sale.

 

[ranger58sb]

Remembering to play will increase your odds of winning hardly at all.

Oh, No, Gawsh, say it isn't so!

I thought it'd increase probabilities by at least 50% or so!



-Chris

 

[smitty477]

"Who wants a truck or SUV that can't do more than is ever required of it? Who wants an automobile that can't go faster into traffic than is normally needed or hold more passengers than usually brought along?? Who wants a boat that can't take bigger seas than should/would be encountered... or.... offer more comfortable living design than is usually required???"


While I can understand the thoughts of buying 'extra' IMHO I have learned to carefully evaluate when is needed and buy what fits that 'spec' well. If over time if the 'spec' changes than a new one can be created and a change to a newer vehicle/boat to match that updated need or goal.
It has worked well with cars , trucks, boats , homes to not have things like speed, size and capability that will not be utilized as the time to maintain, costs and size clearly will affect the 'time of use' and aggravation level attached to that item.
Best bet is to plan well so you are much more likely to use and enjoy the item at hand.
Happy new year and have fun boating

 

[smitty477]

"What I have are a few long weekends available this summer and a 2 week vacation in July. If we keep the boat in Newport RI, we probably head to Cuttyhunk, Martha's Vinyard and maybe to Block Island for a few days before returning home at a leisurely 7 knots."


Perhaps also consider these: Mystic seaport, Montauk, Greenport, Sag Harbor, Shelter Island, Riverhead and a whole host of other 'destinations' that are all within a days cruise of near where you seem to be.

 

[BandB]

I live in the Palm Beach area and see many beautiful Nordhavns of all sizes and like the OP, I've wondered if these boats are being used for their intended purpose/design. Either there are a lot of adventurous people around here with the financial means to afford these boats or they are purchased as a status symbol of sorts. Maybe someday there will be a big supply of barely used Nordhavns for sale.

You also see a lot of Range Rovers and Hummers in your area. I think there are people who genuinely consider them both to be the best, the dream vehicles. As to the Nordhavn's, they've done an incredible job of marketing. There is a term "perceived value." Well, there are many buyers who as a result of Nordhavn's marketing are convinced that there is a huge amount of safety value in the boat, that it can safely do what other boats can't. Perhaps it's the Volvo of the boat world to them. Many do make trips to and from the Bahamas. They feel safe and secure. They would not feel that way perhaps in the Sea Ray that just passed them on the way. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be safe in the Sea Ray, just that they wouldn't feel as much so. They've been convinced there is no other boat like the Nordhavn.

Now, as to the big supply of barely used Nordhavn's, there are always several available, but one thing that Nordhavn has also done is built a brand that maintains value on the used market extremely well and a huge percentage of the resells are actually through Nordhavn. In West Palm as well, James Knight is a huge part of their success. He adds a value that is immeasurable.

It reminds me a bit of Infiniti vs. Nissan and Lexus vs. Toyota. In both cases, there are some nice added touches to the luxury model, but the biggest difference is the level of service. I remember buying my Infiniti years ago and the ownership of that car was a superior experience in every way. I had never been treated by a car dealer as I was by them. Loaner cars automatic and nice Infiniti models, typically less than a year old. Whereas with other brands you might wait for parts, the Infiniti dealer would have them overnighted to them. And if something happened just outside of warranty, it would be covered under warranty.

I'm not a Nordhavn fan, but I definitely understand their pull to customers. Any boat builder who wants to build customer loyalty would be smart to look at them carefully. Value is more than just the tangibles and design match to user is more than just the boat itself.

 

[Bruce B]

"What I have are a few long weekends available this summer and a 2 week vacation in July. If we keep the boat in Newport RI, we probably head to Cuttyhunk, Martha's Vinyard and maybe to Block Island for a few days before returning home at a leisurely 7 knots."


Perhaps also consider these: Mystic seaport, Montauk, Greenport, Sag Harbor, Shelter Island, Riverhead and a whole host of other 'destinations' that are all within a days cruise of near where you seem to be.

The point is that if these destinations are desirable and time is limited then a full displacement boat is limiting. Thus the original question about design vs use...
Bruce