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Old 01-24-2014, 07:45 AM   #21
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Saving for a boat consumes youth.
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Old 01-24-2014, 07:55 AM   #22
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I wouldn't say for financial reasons NEVER buy a boat...as a liveaboard and lifestyle, add in where you work and what you spend on commuting, dirt property....etc...etc...sometimes and some places it could be a dead heat..maybe cheaper in the long run....

I'll certainly lose less money on my current boat if I gave it away than I just lost on EACH of 4 house properties I short sold in NJ.

Timing can be everything also....

Again...like so many other topics in these forums...using words like never, always, the right/correct way, from this lone picture I can tell your boat is ____......will only get a response from someone that might prove you incorrect.
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Old 01-24-2014, 08:05 AM   #23
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I have a simple economics philosophy .... no cash, no buy.
Count me in this camp. Financing a house often makes sense because you need a place to live and the value of the house usually increases while you are paying for it. I was able to sell my first house for a profit and pay cash for the second with money left over. I sold that house and bought my current house for cash with money left over.

"Toys" (boat, motorcycle, even new cars) should not be financed as a rule. If you can't afford to pay cash for a car, buy a cheaper one. It will still get you to work and back.

Of course, many people lack the sense and willpower to follow these priinciples and that's why this country (the USA) is in the mess it's in. Keep yourself in debt by financing things you don't absolutely need and you'll never get ahead.

And of course, the US government would do well to understand this.
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Old 01-24-2014, 08:11 AM   #24
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One thing to consider is a fairly old boat will usually have far more structure , as GRP was less trusted so thicker was better.

The USCG rules for inspected vessels require a 400% hull margin , which basically translates to a stiff enough structure that it doesnt flex.

For cruising , thicker IS better .after all if 15 hp come from a gallon of diesel, and your thick crude old hull weighs 2 tons more than a flexing flyweight , at 3 HP per ton to cruise thats cheap insurance.

The new boat is an old second hand boat the instant it leaves the brokers dock and the big depreciation clock starts.

First to go is the builders 20% , second is the brokers 20-25% markups.

For my bucks a well built used boat would always be first choice .

What IS a well built boat can start as many religious arguments as twin or single and + Best+ anchor.
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Old 01-24-2014, 08:18 AM   #25
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.......... What IS a well built boat can start as many religious arguments as twin or single and + Best+ anchor.
It needs to also be a well maintained boat. A well built boat that has been neglected or maintained by an incompetent person will be a constant headache.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:27 AM   #26
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This is a great topic.

The ironic thing is we all buy boats for exactly the opposite reasons...

Some buy new to sit on them and do nothing, others so they have a project to keep busy.

Some buy so they can travel, others so they can stay in one place and not travel.

Some buy boats to feel young, others think they make you old and tired.

Some buy boats so they can spend time with their spouses, others to have a place to get away from their spouses.

Some buy boats and do make money on them, others just spend and loose

Some buy boats because they feel relaxed aboard, others like the adrenalin rush they get pushing the envelope aboard boats

Some buy to live aboard, others to get out of the house.

The one common thread here is we all buy boats!

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Old 01-24-2014, 10:37 AM   #27
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... There is no interest on holding cash, missed opportunity maybe ... and without any guarantees (other than for TIPS and CD, or GIS and TD in Canada, that are hardly profitable at the current interest rates).
If i was in this unfortunate situation (will likely happen when i'm old and can't take risks with $), I would definitely pay cash for a boat. It wouldn't make any sense at all to finance.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:01 AM   #28
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What a doomsday outlook. If your investments yield less than expected or you lose your job, you pay your debts with your reserves.

The example that I cited is a very common thing that people do. People invest and borrow money all the time.
I don't see my philosophy as doomsday, I just like to sleep at night knowing I don't owe anybody anything.

I do third party appraisals on repossessed boats for all the banks here in Ontario. That part of my business has been booming for the last five years.
All those people buying boats that they could not pay cash for have contributed greatly to my income .... keep it up
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:20 AM   #29
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“Pleasure” Boats cost a bit. At first blush on a cold/hard spreadsheet of Dollar$$ & Cent$$... their swirling financials are poor way to spend money – appearing as a losing proposition to say the least – “At First Blush” – That is!

I give this caveat on financials before I begin listing what need-driven-holes in life Pleasure Boats actually fill at considerably reasonable cost: Wisely purchased good condition used boats supply as much or more enjoyment as new boats and their cold/hard “financials on spreadsheet” read-out better.

Life’s need-driven-holes affordably filled... reasons to have a privately owned Pleasure Boat always available for self and family and friends and business associates...

1. Availability to spend time out and about on the water or at dock in a comfortable self contained cruiser
2. Ability to explore marine areas as no other item in life will allow
3. Chance to vacation any day(s) that time becomes available
4. Super fun way to take long vacations on water with family/friends
5. Opportunity to mingle at dock or on water with boating friends
6. Ongoing physical exercise whenever aboard (mental exercise – whenever not... lol)
7. A play toy to which you can add pretty much whatever “extras” you’d like to satisfy your boating desires
8. Good condition Pleasure Boats can be the best psychiatrist on earth – via sheer enjoyment
9. Boats are great marriage counselors – ya know... like... “when this boats a rocken, don’t come a knocken”!
10. Boats teach skills that can only be learned when often on and around the water.
11. Pleasure Boats can act as supplemental housing for owner or owner’s family/friends
12. Swimming, diving, rowing, gunk holen in dinks – Ya simply gotta love it – I DO!
13. Fishing – need I say more!
14. Tax write off when properly designated, positioned on paper, and smartly entered into quarterlies/ annuals
15. Reason to have a hobby of researching and always learning more about marine doings/life
16. Place to hold a party – at dock or on the hook!
17. Excuse for going to boat shows!
18. Last, but not least... Reason to delve into forums such as this and banter with the best Pleasure Boat owners in the world!!!

That’s my take on why it is OK for spending money to own a Pleasure Boat, and, just how “overall” inexpensive it is to own one. Cause – If you took each of the 18 reasons I listed and put dollar $$$ costs next to each one... well then... the true-value of what owning a boat actually accomplishes becomes greatly enhanced!

I look forward to hearing other TF members’ reasons for spending money to own and have consistent availability to their much loved “Pleasure Boat”!

Just sayen...

Happy Boating Daze – Art
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:46 AM   #30
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Never finance your toys. I'm with Boatpoker. If you can't afford your toys you have no business messing with them.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:59 AM   #31
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If i was in this unfortunate situation (will likely happen when i'm old and can't take risks with $), I would definitely pay cash for a boat. It wouldn't make any sense at all to finance.
I can agree with this ...

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That’s my take on why it is OK for spending money to own a Pleasure Boat, and, just how “overall” inexpensive it is to own one. Cause – If you took each of the 18 reasons I listed and put dollar $$$ costs next to each one... well then... the true-value of what owning a boat actually accomplishes becomes greatly enhanced!
I don't think we disagree with this at all ... after all, most here have a Pleasure Boat that might be "free and clear" or not yet. The pleasure and the real or perceived add-on value of owning a boat is a driver for the decision to own the boat. Makes us feel better, makes us live better life, or at least we think so ... and it's okay to spend money on a boat ... if one does it responsibly, within the means, no matter how rich or not the one is.

Let's go ...
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:01 PM   #32
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I do third party appraisals on repossessed boats for all the banks here in Ontario. That part of my business has been booming for the last five years.
All those people buying boats that they could not pay cash for have contributed greatly to my income .... keep it up
Don't hold your breath. I own my boat free and clear, but I may finance my next boat if at that time my ROI is still greater than the interest on boat loans. And it will not be repossessed because the loan will be just a small fraction of what I have. If for some reason the bank calls the loan, I'll pay it off. No need to be sleepless about it. Not all people that finance boats are irresponsible. I know many boaters and have never heard of any of them losing their boats to the bank. I'm sure it happens, but to a small percentage of borrowers. Boating should be a hobby for those with a decent amount of disposable income already and not for those that push the limit and live beyond their means. I believe in being pragmatic when shopping for a boat and one should also be pragmatic in deciding how to pay for it. There is no one answer.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:30 PM   #33
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Here is my 2 cents.

My wife and I have been planning on buying a new vessel which we have the cash to do. The new vessel's base price is over 4 mil that we want. By time it is all said an done the cost of the New vessel would be little over 5. mil with the outfitting that we would want done to her.

As of late, I have been watching a used vessel (The same brand) that is outfitted with about 75% of the items we would want on our vessel.

The cost of the used vessel is about 2 mil. (which I know I can get the price down to about 1.5 mil or so)

In looking at the cost of upgrading this used vessel to our full specs. (some of the upgrades) New power plants, New trans, Some New Nav systems and some interior, the total cost would be around 600k on the high side.

So with that said, the used vessel with a new systems on her total cost would be around 2.1 mil. That is a big savings over buying a new vessel.

In 10 to 15 year will we get our cash back out of the used vessel. NO WAY! Would we get our cash back if we bought the new vessel. NO WAY!

So it comes down to this for us. We can buy new and spend 5mil or buy used and spend 2.1 mil. I think that speaks for itself. 3 mil in savings from the jump, gives us that much more cash to cruise on and to enjoy life that much more.

I do understand each case is different when is comes to buying a vessel but in this market the larger used vessels are not selling so for us, going with used is the better way. In a good market? Well I think I would have to rethink it!

Just my 2 cents

Happy cruising.

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Old 01-24-2014, 01:25 PM   #34
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Hfoster,

You bring up an interesting perspective in the class of boat, (Yacht) you are looking at. Because in this market, as I understand it, the yachts in that high price range are selling, new. The middle class range of boats are sitting on the market, new and used, without much activity in sales. However, in the high end range of yachts there are people waiting for the manufacturer to complete the yacht for delivery.

I agree with your assessment for your situation and it sounds like you are moving toward the smart way to purchase your next yacht.

So, what is going on in your price range? What is the difference between your perspective and what seems to be going on in the higher range yacht buying world?

Interesting...
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:30 PM   #35
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BTW- Nordhavn states on their website that they see the market recovering to the extent they are starting to build the smaller boats(yachts) again. Of course, Nordhavn "small yachts" are still in the $750,000-$1,000,000 range.

Are they just trying to fuel some sales or do you think they really have an accurate pulse on the market?
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:55 PM   #36
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Hfoster,

You bring up an interesting perspective in the class of boat, (Yacht) you are looking at. Because in this market, as I understand it, the yachts in that high price range are selling, new. The middle class range of boats are sitting on the market, new and used, without much activity in sales. However, in the high end range of yachts there are people waiting for the manufacturer to complete the yacht for delivery.

I agree with your assessment for your situation and it sounds like you are moving toward the smart way to purchase your next yacht.

So, what is going on in your price range? What is the difference between your perspective and what seems to be going on in the higher range yacht buying world?

Interesting...
Randall.

I have been watching the larger vessel market for well over a year now. As you said, the used mid range Yachts are not selling that well. The mid range (yachts) that I have been watching are from 65' up to 90'.

My wife and I want our vessel length to be around 70 to 78 feet. So we are in the range that is not selling to well compared to the smaller vessels that are on the market. (below 50')

I have been seeing prices drop and drop over the pass few months (a drop of about 200K on the prices) at a time on any given vessel. The vessel I have been watching for us stated our at 2.25 Mil when I first seen it and now it is down to 1.925 Mil. I believe this vessel will drop down to about 1.7 mil or so, if not lower.

Once it hits that price, I will go and take a hard look at it, and if it is good shape, I will make an offer on it.

I also believe the market is going to take another hard down turn within this year and I am also sure by the end of 2016 the boat market as a whole will take a hard hit as well.

As far as boat builders selling new vessels? I am sure they are but the last report I read (2013) on new builds reported a drop of 28% on mid range yachts. Now do not confuse these reports on gross sales. That is up due to fact they are charging higher prices on new vessels to keep their profits up.

You are also right that boat builders are pushing 50 to 60 footers. Their lager range vessel have not been selling nor have they been getting orders for them.

I can name a few different companies that are show new 50 to 58 ranges vessels at boat shows this year. 2 of the top of my head at NH and Fleming. I'm guessing they seen the market turning some time ago and put their chips on smaller vessels.

That is my thoughts anyways.

Happy cruising

H. Foster
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:04 PM   #37
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Just because a boat is used doesn't mean it is not a good boat.

Ideally if you can find a boat that the previous owner sunk a lot of time and money into and for health reasons or just up and died. You can have a boat that is every bit as good as a new one.

There are plenty of boats on this site that I would love to get my hands on.

How is everyone feeling these days.

SD
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:17 PM   #38
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Just because a boat is used doesn't mean it is not a good boat.

Ideally if you can find a boat that the previous owner sunk a lot of time and money into and for health reasons or just up and died. You can have a boat that is every bit as good as a new one.

There are plenty of boats on this site that I would love to get my hands on.

How is everyone feeling these days.

SD
Howdy SD - How are your making it, since... Well I pray!

Anyway, I have this to say bout pleasure boats and their owners:

- We only buy a pleasure boat caus WE WANT TO!

- That boat becomes our baby... one way or the other!

- If a person wants out of boating just sell it; take a loss if necessary.

- If a person wants to stay in boating do what you must and enjoy every second!

Happy Boat Ownen Daze! - Art
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:24 PM   #39
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Doing good Art.
A little better every day.
Thanks for asking.

SD
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:00 PM   #40
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Saving for a boat consumes youth.
The other side of that coin is that you may never get out of debt and will have to continue working until the day you die.

Somehow you have to find a balance.
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