Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-06-2019, 04:45 PM   #61
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: ACIW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boat View Post
Subsistence permits? Gotta be kidding. I never even heard of a subsistence permit before this thread and now you're telling me that a few subsistence permits are all that are stopping "the end of the world" for halibut??? Sorry, but it sounds like hyperbole to me.

I saw an ad for charter fishing. Snapper down here in the gulf. $200/hr per person. Six people, six hours, $7200. Maybe the protectioni$m is making more $en$e.
If you never heard of subsistence fishing/hunting, it means you haven't been to Alaska....


Especially haven't lived there as many live off the land even without the precious subsistence permits.
__________________
Advertisement

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2019, 04:54 PM   #62
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 11,212
As I understood concerning Alaska, a resident can subsistence with nets, but is sport-fishing with a pole.
__________________

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2019, 06:28 PM   #63
Senior Member
 
Tator's Avatar
 
City: Bainbridge Island/Petersburg Alaska
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Oz
Vessel Model: Bluewater 40' RPH 1979
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 154
In thinking more about this, I think we are going to start scoring our halibut into our normal serving sizes-cutting through the meat but not the skin. We can then fold the quarter fish and fit it in our freezer and the skin will still be attached. It will make final processing easier when we head south as we will only have to cut through the attached skin before vacusealing.

Tator
Tator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2019, 01:20 AM   #64
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Mike View Post
Good morning from Coffman Cove Alaska. I was boarded by NOAA last year. He was nice enough and I passed the attitude test. There was no doubt in my mind that he would turn quickly if I gave him any lip.

My friend was fishing legitimately here on Clarence Straights last year. He would come back to town and clean an pack his fish every day. He loaded up to go back to Ketchikan and was stopped. All of the fish in his freezer was confiscated. The only way according to the officer is to freeze the fillets whole with skin on so they can count the fish. Four fillets equals one fish. Needless to say there were numerous discussions regarding NOAA and boarding boats.
True, except the whole skin thing. Each fellet must have a patch of skin still attached. The above was told to me by a NOAA officer.
__________________
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
https://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2019, 01:24 AM   #65
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trawler Dave View Post
Sure, do away with the permits. Then, in ten years, we won't have to worry about Pacific Halibut at all anymore. Just like Cod on the East Coast, almost non-existent.
Oh I could right volumes on this. The IPHC is run by State governments, to include B.C. and the commercial fishermen. Sport fishing has only one representative. The commercials are setting restrictive policies on sport fish.
__________________
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
https://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2019, 01:26 AM   #66
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
I disagree with it, but it's been through the Supreme Court and clearly adjudicated. Even though your boat may be your home, you very definitely do NOT get the same constitutional protections onboard as you would in your home on land.
So why not? Dirt versus water....
__________________
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
https://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2019, 01:30 AM   #67
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpbrady View Post
My problem with the rule being enforced by NOAA is it was put in place by an international commission (the IPHC) without going through the traditional federal rulemaking process and was not subject to a public comment period. The rule's purpose would seem to be protecting the halibut resource, but its affect on the resource is not measurable as it only impacts fisherman on a boat with fishing tackle. 99% of the sport fishermen are not affected by this rule as they return to shore each day to process their catch. In the case of the person going from Coffman Cove back to Ketchikan, the only mistake was having fishing tackle on board. I wonder if NOAA would stop people leaving Coffman Cove or Thorne Bay with processed halibut on board a float plane with their fishing rods. Technically they are a boat when on the water so in violation. That's how ridiculous this rule can become. In the US the commissioners to the IPHC are appointed by the State Dept. I don't think the State Dept will take comments from someone in Wrangell or anywhere else when it comes to commissioners. One of the US commissioners is a charter captain and lodge owner. I don't know where he stands on this rule, but it might be possible to see what his thoughts are and why it was imposed.

Tom
It is actually an international treaty....
__________________
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
https://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 02:17 PM   #68
Member
 
nobles9596's Avatar
 
City: Deltaville, Virginia
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Next Chapter
Vessel Model: 34' Marine Trader DC
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 15
Only the US coast guard has a right to board your vessel in US waters. Other agencies like marine police, NOAA, local police, etc want you to believe they have the same right as the coast guard. The only way they can board your vessel is with permission or a signed search warrant. You are perfectly legal to deny them. Most people do not realize this when they see flashing blue lights.
nobles9596 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 02:25 PM   #69
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 7,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobles9596 View Post
Only the US coast guard has a right to board your vessel in US waters. Other agencies like marine police, NOAA, local police, etc want you to believe they have the same right as the coast guard. The only way they can board your vessel is with permission or a signed search warrant. You are perfectly legal to deny them. Most people do not realize this when they see flashing blue lights.

Maybe you could offer some support for that assertion? You may be correct, but I'll certainly not risk running afoul of law enforcement without some authoritative opinions.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 02:52 PM   #70
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: ACIW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,122
I too would like to know.


Pretty sure some Fish & Game guys can seize all your assets on your hunting/fishing site with just probable cause....can't see how a warrant-less boarding of your boat would be much different....ya know... if they could seize it anyhow.


Now if its a tough case, they might just wait for a warrant, but if their probable cause is good enough, getting a quick warrant may not be all that tough.


Found this...


https://www.uslawshield.com/fwc-offi...ida-need-know/

FWC Officers and Stop-and-Board Powers

FWC Officers also have the authority to stop and board vessels which are not being used for fishing. Just being on the water gives an FWC Officer a right to stop you, without cause, to conduct a safety inspection. Further, Florida Statute 379.334 gives the FWC Officers the authority to board any vessel boat or vehicle or to enter any fish house or warehouse or other building exclusive of residence in which game, hides, fur-bearing animals, fish, or fish nets are kept and to search for and seize any such game, hides, fur-bearing animals, fish, or fish nets had or held there in violation of the law without a warrant if the officer has probable cause to believe that the fishing or hunting laws have been broken.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 03:48 PM   #71
Senior Member
 
wwestman's Avatar
 
City: Bellingham, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Excellent Adventure
Vessel Model: 1995 Jefferson Ker Shine 45
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 307
Also US Customs can board you in any coastal waters and any waters that have connections to the coast. You can ask nicely but you will never get to see a warrant. They may get a good chuckle from you telling them you want a warrant.
wwestman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 04:40 PM   #72
Guru
 
Benthic2's Avatar
 
City: Boston Area
Country: United States
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,444
Quote from an Article from the American Boating Association, written by a USCG Auxillary person:

Well, if you took a safe boating course in the last several years, some of the information you got about stopping, and boarding a vessel has changed. In years gone by, the only agency that could stop your vessel and board it, without a search warrant was the Coast Guard. Well, this isn't exactly so anymore.

Several states have signed compacts with the Coast Guard in this post 9/11 environment, whereas the Coast Guard has delegated some of their Federal powers to the state. Specifically, they now allow state law enforcement (and those state powers flow down to the local law enforcement officers) to board vessels


Source: American Boating Association:Pulled Over.
Benthic2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 04:59 PM   #73
Guru
 
Ken E.'s Avatar
 
City: Bellingham WA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Hatt Trick
Vessel Model: 45' Hatteras Convertible
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 813
Notwithstanding the above opinions, but a boat with blue lights, Glocks and badges pulls up and wants to board you. You may say 'what's your authority?' or 'show me a warrant'. You say he needs one, he says he doesn't . As a practical matter, where does that leave you? Now it's a game of chicken and he's holding all the cards. Maybe now he's pissed and and tells you to follow him to his dock while he gets a warrant. And then rips your boat apart. I'm wondering if the principle is important enough to justify the consequences when butting heads with law enforcement.
__________________
Ken on Hatt Trick
Ken E. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 05:03 PM   #74
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,340
If all these folks want to climb onboard to inspect my boat, I am going to need a bigger boat or they are all going to have to stand real close to each other.
__________________
I will update this as soon as I can think of something snappy.
OldDan1943 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 05:56 PM   #75
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 7,698
I don't know for sure, but it is my understanding that police can't do warrant less searches of your person, car, or home, but they can on your boat. WA State makes it clear that any LEO can enforce state and federal laws and you have to comply with their instructions. Now, I'm not sure that non-USCG can search your boat without probable cause, but they certainly can board your boat..


I have almost always had good interactions with LEOs. I've been boarded by the USCG and by municipal police auxiliary (they have limited police powers). If any LEO or federal agent asks to board, I will endeavor to make it as convenient and painless for them, as well as myself.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 08:11 PM   #76
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,316
Customs and border issues are different, you are entering the USA and such the rules are different. Once they have cleared you then you would come under the protection of US law. Police always have the right for probable cause. So if you have a crab pot sitting on your back deck, fish & game has probable cause to search you for illegal fishing.

Where this all gets tricky is NOAA’s right to stop a boat showing no fishing gear and not obviously breaking any other laws. Unless there is a Coastie on board then the Coastie does have the right to stop and search for any reason.

I wish we had more complete facts on the NOAA boardings.
tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 11:34 PM   #77
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 9,602
Try this . Don`t refuse the NOAA search, but tell them you don`t consent to it. Then, if (shock horror )they find skinless fish and prosecute, defend on the basis the search and gaining of evidence was illegal. Your boat may be highlighted for search evermore, but you might win the case.
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 11:50 PM   #78
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
Try this . Don`t refuse the NOAA search, but tell them you don`t consent to it. Then, if (shock horror )they find skinless fish and prosecute, defend on the basis the search and gaining of evidence was illegal. Your boat may be highlighted for search evermore, but you might win the case.
Good point.....
__________________
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
https://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2019, 11:51 PM   #79
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 11,212
Never been boarded/inspected by law enforcement. Just appear innocent (no fishing gear) and don't arrive from open seas.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	raccoon strait south.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	74.1 KB
ID:	90886  
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2019, 09:32 AM   #80
Senior Member
 
Bkay's Avatar
 
City: Reedville, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Model: Beals Island lobster boat
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
Try this . Don`t refuse the NOAA search, but tell them you don`t consent to it.
I've been reading this thread and wondering when this would come up.

In my first life I spent a few misguided years in the Military Police. We were trained to enter a house by saying "may I come in" while actually starting to enter the house. If the person backed up and allowed it, it was considered implied consent and treated the same as if they invited you in. I was caught off guard one day when someone said "Are you asking to come in or are you ordering me to allow you in? Because I'll certainly cooperate if it's an order." Well crap...now what?

I always figured I'd ask any non-USCG who requested to board if they were requesting permission to board. If they are asking permission, then no thank you, but maybe I can help you from here - what's up, sir? If they say no, were not asking we're telling. Then certainly, what heading and speed would you like me to maintain?

Boardings for safety inspections are different than boardings for probable cause that a crime has been committed. I'm sure every agency (actually, every court) views probable cause differently. But in my experience it's not an easy thing to just say you have probable cause and tear up someone's boat/car/house. Rather, it's easy to say you have probable cause at the time, but prosecuting based on what you find may be a little more difficult. And if LEO says they have probable cause - you must cooperate or you'll be face down in flexcuffs.

Using what they find in court might be a different story - I'd like to believe in my state (Virginia), if State or local LEO boarded under the authority to conduct a safety inspection and with no further probable cause started looking in nooks and crannies for a doob or a fish filet - then anything they found would be problematic to introduce as evidence. It does depend on the specific agency and their authority and the court's view.

Of course, I tend not to commit crimes so I'm not really concerned about a boarding other than on principal and I certainly won't be a jerk to a boarding officer just to make a point. But since I spent over 20 years defending the Constitution, I don't really want to see it trampled on.
__________________

Bkay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012