Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-02-2009, 06:27 AM   #21
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,995
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

Hiya,
Gonzo, all the advice you've been offered so far is good but the one thing that has not been mentioned is sticking to a timetable. DON'T let your cruising plans be determined by ANY timetable. You have to be in a certain place at a certain time and the weather is either bad or forcast to be bad, leave the boat and take a bus, train, plane or car. More people have been killed by having to pick up aunt Tilley at a distant dock in bad weather than any other reason.
Keep your wits about you and be flexable reagarding weather.
I may be stating the obvious but please be safe.
__________________
Advertisement

RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2009, 06:47 AM   #22
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

But wait --- I don't have an Aunt Tilley

I hear ya'... and THAT is still something we are trying to work on. Patience. Decompression from fast-and-furious city life is proving to be a challenge. Especially because we are week-enders that still have jobs to goto Monday morning. So even our weekend hops around the Neuse have a certain amount of pressure associated with them. Still, we hope that by the time we are ready to do long runs up and down the ICW, we'll be ready.
__________________

Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2009, 12:47 PM   #23
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

I think it odd that Willard hasn't been mentioned on this thread. I wouldn't be comfortable overnight and beyond aboard anything short of a FULL displacement hull such as a Krogen or a Willard. I also think it's better to go to sea in one of the better Passage Makers than a sail boat. Sail boats don't have the volume fwd to force a vessel to rise up to a sea and the inertia of masts and other rigging aloft while pitching causes the bow to plunge too deep. The ideal vessel offshore is a full blown steel Passage Maker w twin engines or serious get home power.

Eric Henning
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2009, 04:47 AM   #24
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

I think it odd that Willard hasn't been mentioned on this thread. I wouldn't be comfortable overnight and beyond aboard anything short of a FULL displacement hull such as a Krogen or a Willard. I also think it's better to go to sea in one of the better Passage Makers than a sail boat. Sail boats don't have the volume fwd to force a vessel to rise up to a sea and the inertia of masts and other rigging aloft while pitching causes the bow to plunge too deep. The ideal vessel offshore is a full blown steel Passage Maker w twin engines or serious get home power.

Eric Henning
Eric, I mentioned the WIllard in my first post!

*
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2009, 04:54 AM   #25
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

"Sail boats don't have the volume fwd to force a vessel to rise up to a sea and the inertia of masts and other rigging aloft while pitching causes the bow to plunge too deep. The ideal vessel offshore is a full blown steel Passage Maker w twin engines or serious get home power."


I'm sure the thousands of sail boats that have circumnavigated the world over the past 100 years would be amazed to learn this!

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2009, 08:27 AM   #26
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

"Ideal passagemaker" vs* " Can my boat do it" are two very different issues. I'm with Baker that a 35 CHB can do the Islands tour. That assumes a very big if - IF the*vessel is properly maintained and *Captain and crew are properly**funded, experienced and prudent to do it safely. Me, I drool over Dashew's spartan (not cheap though) FPBs.

And even though FF is right about the kazilliions of sailboats, my remarks on this post are for Trawler Forum. Having said that, it is amazing to see how the newer sailing yachts are resembling trawlers, at least above the water line.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2009, 10:45 AM   #27
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

Just stating the obvious Fred. The excessive ballast, the odd shape of the hull, the inefficient propulsion system (systems) and the cumbersome masts and rigging frequently (I'm sure) don't make a sailboat as seaworthy as it could be.

Eric Henning
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2009, 04:28 AM   #28
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Just stating the obvious Fred. The excessive ballast, the odd shape of the hull, the inefficient propulsion system (systems) and the cumbersome masts and rigging frequently (I'm sure) don't make a sailboat as seaworthy as it could be.

Eric Henning
Eric, you do realize that the sails are considered a "propulsion system" and I would have to say that they are pretty darned efficient. *
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2009, 05:00 AM   #29
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

I've always been under the impression that the sail made the boat inherently more stable by counteracting the roll. It seems that quite few designers are now offering the steadying sail as part of the "trawlers" system as a stabilizing option. The Diesel Duck line of boats utilizes the steadying sail in most of his designs and even claims the sail to be a get home system. I always thought sailboats to have a better A/B ratio than most trawlers witch adds to initial inherent stability.

Sailboats are for sure a different ride than a trawler, but sailboats seem to have more stability (not necessarily a better ride) designed into them from the drawing board vs most of the off the shelf* modern trawlers.

Conall
conallsboatbuild.blogspot.com
Conall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2009, 05:12 AM   #30
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

What you consider "an odd shaped hull" is the most efficient moderate speed hull shape for that displacement.

Most sailboats , like TT can obtain SL 1 with tiny effort , which is why (coupled with more suitable smaller engines) many sailboats will get 10MPG !

An almost unheard of level for cruise speed motor cruiser.

Our 33ft ,90/90 burns .7 of a gal at 6.5K inshore on the ICW.

With 25 years of operating and at least 7 trips up and down , I'm sure of the fuel burn.

Close to 10nmpg even with 7000lbs of "useless " ballast and close to 1000lbs of "useless" mast.

That's why a new trend is to get a sail hull, cut down the mast to lazy man proportions and install a modern small diesel (J Deere marinizations of the 4 cyl , no turbo) .And bigger fuel tanks.

A neighbor in FL also used a diamond saw to reduce the ballast and draft , installed a good keel shoe and has a very useful OFFSHORE cruiser.

Sure he has half the ballroom of the typical TT ,and no Oxygen tent,

but he can go to Bermuda , then to the Carib with out the problems and dangers of the average TT "trawler".

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2009, 07:06 AM   #31
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 56
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

It sounds like pretty much everyone is in "violent agreement!"
Boats (like most aspects of life) involve compromises. There are a lot of factors to consider - initial investment, operating costs, speed, size, space, creature comforts, range, safety, blue water vs brown water capabilities, etc., etc., etc. NO boat maximizes all of those factors. So the key to getting the "right" boat is to figure out what's important for YOU and then get a boat that excels at that while still (perhaps) giving you acceptable levels of the other less important (to you) factors.
In other words, keep the main thing the main thing....for you.
Yorksafloat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2009, 09:55 AM   #32
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

Good knowledge, opinions and ideas,
FF. Most sailboats drag a fixed pitch prop through the water thus use direct drive and small propellers** ..* not very efficient. Almost half the time they push a forrest of rigging into headwinds. Not efficient but your'e extreemly correct about the sailboat hull being much more efficient.
Conal, Sails and all the associated rigging make a boat LESS stable not more. The sails dampen the roll very well but they are weight aloft cause great instability but the instability is counter ballanced by the very excessive ballast in the keel or hull and keel. If you ballast a SB over into a 45 degree heel or list and suddenly remove all the masts and rigging she will right herself considerably.
John, In terms of fuel burn your'e very correct. But in terms of something you can put on or in your boat to propell it accross the sea no. Think of all the light winds, calms and headwinds plus the excessive expense and bulk and maintance that must be borne by the owner. Think of the huge sacrifices in cabin configuration and hull shape and deck layout that must be made to accomadate those sails. I could go on and on .. draft ect ect. But for the reasons FF stated I was considering building up a serious trawler based on a modified sailboat hull. Sorry John that I missed your mention of Willard.

Eric Henning
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2009, 10:35 AM   #33
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

What about a poor man's stabilizer- Magma has a system. This could help on an unavoidable beam sea. It seems to me that the information that is available today is getting more useful. With Satellite Weather you could make an informed decision on when to leave at the most favorable time for a comfortable and safe passage. I have saved backtrack info on my handheld on a few cruises from New Orleans to Cozumel. If I ever took this passage on a small vessel I would think that following this course would offer a safety net of sorts if you left a few days before a cruise departed. Has anyone tried the Magma system?Steve
http://www.magmaproducts.com/Product...tabilizer.html
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 04:18 AM   #34
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

Most sailboats drag a fixed pitch prop through the water thus use direct drive and small propellers

You mostly refering to boats built on a "racing" hull.Where 5K smooth water no wind was a requirement.Cruising boats follow hydrodynamic rules , not rating rules , and on cruises are far faster from more sail area, and wholesome not weird rule beating hull shapes.

Most cruisers will have a full keel, lowers the draft about 1/3 increasing the useful harbors, and allows coming along side a pier to clean the bottom.

These boats will simply use a wide blade 2 blade prop and a simple prop lock , as we do.

The 19 inch diameter allows good cavitation free push , and with a bit of pesky work the prop has no form drag , only surface drag.

It requires loosening the prop lock a bit , sailing at cruise speed ,( for us 6K or so )and moving the shaft by hand.

When you find the sweet spot the shaft will not want to turn , either direction, but only at that speed.

All that rigging is usually used to hold up "sails", and as many engine less boats have done circumnavigations , I guess it works for folks that understand SAILING.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2009, 01:26 PM   #35
Guru
 
skipperdude's Avatar
 
City: Whittier AK
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Apache II
Vessel Model: 1974 Donald Jones
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,147
RE: Blue Water Capabilities?

Quote:
Forkliftt wrote:

Has anyone tried the Magma system?
Steve
http://www.magmaproducts.com/Product...tabilizer.html

These look*OK for at anchor. I don't think you could run with them. Nothing to keep them pointing forward.
SD
*
__________________

skipperdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blue Angels BaltimoreLurker Voyagers and other Boaters on the Go! 4 03-11-2012 08:05 PM
Blue Water Boat Ride ??? PhatDad General Discussion 23 11-04-2011 11:09 AM
Blue Angels BaltimoreLurker Cruising and Events - East Coast 1 05-24-2011 07:04 AM
Blue Water Ship's Store going out of business Keith General Discussion 3 02-05-2010 01:30 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012