Blue Water Boat Ride ???

[PhatDad]

Hello guys. Great forum. Learning a lot here. First pic is boat we are interested in. Looks like a planing hull.. I was told its a displacement. 14k twin 135 perks.

Second pic. Random taken from this board. Is a full length fin keel. Is this a* better ride*in rough weather ?? Thanks for your time.

*

 

[Nomad Willy]

PhatDad,

You'd probably like either one of them a lot.*

1st boat going 14 knots w twin 135s *...looks doubtful to me. As a sea boat it has a high CG, lots of windage, w low draft and disp ...typical of a planing hull and she is. Excellent overall stability. It's very full fwd. That would give it greater stability quartering on the face of a wave as if it's feet were spread apart fwd. #2 would need to rely on it's aft end for it's stability as it has very little fwd. In a head sea #2 would have a supremely smooth ride while #1 will pound. Directional stability of #2 is way better than #1 except in following seas where #2 is only equal to #1. Visibility from the lower helm is far better on #1 but #2 has a big aft cockpit. I would want big rudders and power steering w either one. #2 has Cat's? The above is only my opinion and subject to change if new information steps fwd.

 

[Marin]

PhatDad---I think Eric's basic evaluation of the two hulls is a good one. I don't know much about hull design at all, but having a friend with a planing type boat (lobsterboat) I would venture to add that while this type of hull can have excellent stability as Eric said, it needs to going along at a pretty good clip to achieve it. My friend has taken to running his 15-16 knot lobsterboat pretty slow these days, about 8.5 knots or so, to save fuel. At this speed he's only going a bit faster than we do. This works great in calm or relatively calm water. But when the wind kicks up and the waves get bigger, the ride of his boat at 8-9 knots is pretty poor. More uncomfortable movement than the ride of our boat. Lots of pitching and rolling and corkscrewing. So in those conditions he puts the power in and get the boat going 15 knots or so. His fuel consumption goes up but the performance of the boat in the rougher water is vastly improved and the ride is much more comfortable.

Which type of hull would suit you best will be largely dependent on what kind of boating you intend to do and where you intend to do it. You're apparently in San Diego, so if that's where you plan to be doing your boating, I would assume most of it is going to be out in the open Pacific. A planing hull is not what I would chose for that kind of boating unless going fast is your primary objective and how much fuel you burn doing it is not important. And if those are the criteria, a very deep-V planing hull or a keeled planing hull like my friend's lobsterboat would be my choices. In the relatively protected waters of the PNW alll was have to deal with are wind waves. They can get plenty big but there are no swells to deal with in addition to the waves. I fished for years on a fully planing boat in Hawaii (Uniflite) and it was about the most wrong hull for those waters you could find. At slow trolling speeds it was okay although it wallowed around a lot as it had no keel and a planing bottom. But the one time the owner put it on a plane outside the reef because he was in a hurry to get home, the boat fell off a swell into a trough and cracked a hull stringer. A Uniflite is a tough boat, so this is a good indication of the kinds of forces that can be involved pushing a planing hull through open ocean water.

Now a boat like our GB is crap in the open ocean on all but the smoothest days. Its hard-chine, almost flat afterbody, semi-planing hull doesn't roll as far as a displacement hull will, but it has a fast, "snap back" roll which a lot of people find very uncomfortable. And in our case, the low power of the engines won't allow the boat to be put on a semi-plane anyway. The later model GBs (same hull, lots more power) do much better in this regard as long as you don't care about fuel burn. Bu with our boat we'd just wallow along with this sharp-edged direction change to the roll. Grand Banks, like all the boats of this same basic design, are called "coastal cruisers" for good reason. Preferably with something between the boat and the open ocean. Like Vancouver Island, for instance.

A displacement boat in the open ocean is the best combination of economy and safe ride. Note I didn't say stable ride (unless you get a boat with active or passive stabilizers on it) but a well-designed displacement hull will handle the open ocean best of all. But it's gonna be slow......


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 02:05:11 PM

 

[PhatDad]

Thanks nomadwilly. Pic #1 She will max out at 12 Knots according to owner. Im in no hurry to buy, but want the safest boat for my family. She wont be a dock queen. We plan on running her. Thanks for the info made since to me.

 

[Tom.B]

It's my opinion that neither are displacement hulls. They are semi-displacement or rather, semi-planing hulls. Chines are those right angles on the hull that slap the water. the swooping lines that causes the boat to ride up onto the bow wave. The hull on Eric's avatar is a full displacement hull. No chines. Water is just pushed aside.

I could be wrong, but that is the way I was taught.

 

[Marin]

PhatDad wrote:
Thanks nomadwilly. Pic #1 She will max out at 12 Knots according to owner.

You don't want to be running a boat at max power very long.* So a more realistic cruise speed for this boat is probably going to be more like 9 knots or so.* Our boat will do 10.5 knots at max power, but running a pair of FL120s like this will wipe them out in short order.* Don't know about Perkins engines.

 

[PhatDad]

Thanks for all that great info as well Marin. Thats why my heart is set on a trawler. I will be in no*hurry to get anywhere. Yes, Pacific will be my play ground. Channel Islands. Coastal cruising. This leads me to my next question. Are most trawlers just coastal cruisers our if weather comes up on you can you fell confident with most of these boats.
I no there are a lot of variables with this question. Maybe I will start another thread. Foul weather stories. I have been playing on the ocean for over 30 years. Owned mostly power sport cruisers and a sail boat. New to the trawler, but this boat just fits out currant life style. Thanks again for your time guys.


-- Edited by PhatDad on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 02:20:05 PM

 

[Marin]

PhatDad wrote:
This leads me to my next question. Are most trawlers just coastal cruisers our if weather comes up on you can you fell confident with most of these boats.

*All trawlers are fishing boats, and they pull a trawl net along the bottom, hence the name.* As such, they are excellent open ocean boats

The boats we have are not trawlers by any stretch of the imagination.* The name "trawler" is a marketing term dreamed up by boat manufacturers to try to give their recreational boats a more salty, rugged, seaworthy image among potential buyers.* As opposed to "cabin cruisers," which is what all these boats actually are.

American Marine, the company that originated the Grand Banks line of boats, never used the word trawler in any of their literature and advertisements.* They referred to their boats only as "Dependable Diesel Cruisers."

So much for the semantics lesson.* Speaking strictly for myself, I do not view our boat, a Grand Banks, as anything but a coastal cruiser.* And neither does our insurance company, who places restrictions on where we can take the boat.* Since the places they don't want us to go are all places we have no desire whatsoever to go, there is no problem.

I don't believe you can say a particular type of class of boat is unsuited for open-ocean cruising.* Smarter, I think, to list the attributes that make some boats better suited to this than others.* On*a calm day, just about any cruiser will do okay on the ocean.* It's not until the winds kick up or storms move in that things start getting dicey.

What I would not want when things get nasty are big windows (which rules out just about every recreational "trawler"), a lot of topside weight (which rules out almost as many recreational "trawlers"), and a planing or semi-planing hull. These (in the sizes most of us*on*TF have)*give reasonably stable rides until a certain point is reached, at which point they are more than happy to capsize.* Or in going downsea, to yaw out of control and pitchpole.

There is a very good reason why just about all the smaller*(36'-60')*boats used for long-distance, open-ocean cruising are either sailboats or Nordhavns.* Well, there are probably*more makes of production power boats than Nordhavn that are well*suited for open ocean work, but you get my point.

If the distances aren't great and the weather forecasting is good, a boat like a Grand Banks can be used to run out to Catalina or the Channel Islands just fine on nice days.* But if the wind kicks up and the swells get big and the waves on top of the swells get steep, I cannot think of a worse boat to be out there in than a Grand Banks or anything similar.

If I lived where you do and the open Pacific was going to be my cruising area, I don't think I'd even consider a boat like*a GB.* I'd want something with much smaller windows, no flying bridge (we don't use ours at all even in calm water so*I wouldn't miss it), and--- if I wasn't in a hurry--- a displacement hull. Maybe with active or passive stabilizers.*

If I boated in the open ocean and*was in a hurry I'd want a big planing or semi-planing*boat (50' plus) with small windows, a fine entry into the waves, and a hell of a lot of power.

My idea of the perfect open ocean powerboat is pictured below.* Called "sampans" or "aku boats" (aku being the Hawaiian name for a species of tuna), the commercial*fleet numbered over a hundred back in the 40s, up through the 1970s.* Today there are three left (I just found out).*

Designed for the extremely rough conditions in places like the Molokai Channel, which even on a nice day can be a mass of big and confused swells and waves and 20 knots winds, these things were absolutely beautiful to watch doing through the water.* They cut through it like destroyers and had such a fantastic ride in the rough stuff around Hawaii that the tuna fishermen could fish standing barefoot*side by side*on a 2 x 12 with a piece of quarter round for a toe rail that was*fastened across the stern.* No railings, no safety harnesses, nothing.* And so far as I know, they never fell off.* To me and my limited boating experience and observation, these had the absolute best seakeeping abilites of any boat I've ever seen.* I've ridden on them and we saw them a lot when we were getting beat to death*out fishing in a 28' Uniflite.* I'd love to have one of these things*made of fiberglass.

So.... I would suggest that you do some serious hanging around at*the marinas in your area if you have not already done so and find out what kind of boat the people who are fairly serious blue water cruisers use.* The ones who go out to the*islands*when the weather's less than great or who are prepared to deal with the ocean if it turns sloppy.* Whatever they have, that's what you want.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 06:03:05 PM

 

[PhatDad]

WOW !!! Marin. Great read. Thanks. You see a lot of dependable diesel cruisers out among the channel Islands. I would say knowing your cruising grounds and local weather is key.
Honestly, I thought this boats were very blue water capable, but like you said they really are not a commercial fishing trawler.

 

[Marin]

PhatDad wrote:
You see a lot of dependable diesel cruisers out among the channel Islands. I would say knowing your cruising grounds and local weather is key.

*Absolutely.* Also, where one boats is a big factor, too.* Perhaps the ocean of San Diego and Santa Barbara*is pretty benign most of the time.* One of my two boating experiences in that area is a week I and one of our videographers spent cruising up and down off the coast on the USS Peleliu shooting Harrier landings and takeoffs.* As I recall the water was flat during that whole week.

On the other hand I once talked my way onto an oil rig service boat up at Carpinteria a number of years ago so I could shoot the oil rigs offshore.* The captain of this three-engine boat told me what it was like trying to hold station next to an oil rig on days when the waves were crashing over the pier at Carpinteria.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 07:31:19 PM

 

[macka17]

Hi.
Coastal and Ocean\offshore boats are two different animals.

Coastal. Most well designed. Shallow draught for shallow waters. Protected prop's.and you'll be pretty right.
Any offshore boat. Decent. Offshore boat will have plenty of draught. Deeper the better.
Equals more stability. Slow speed. Safety.
The ocean equals all men and boats. No matter how fast it CAN go. in reality. Very few will Average much more than a displacement boat over a distance.
A lot will do less. and be a lot noisier doing it.

Canoe sterns. make the safest running boats. But tend to squat when powering on. Waves lift and part. Rather than lift and push transom sterns.
After the first half dozen 35fters have rolled under your stern. You sigh in relief. and relax a bit. Even the curly tops seem to dissipate under your stern.

I spent some years on North Sea and Atlantic Trawlers in the mid 50's. and smaller 60ish ft. Lines and pots. as a deckie.
MOST boats had canoe or near to, sterns. Apart from the Stern trawlers.
Us shooting over the side. were a much more comfortable riding boats. Wheelhouse and galley\bunks aft of midships.

Unfortunately. Most of the early smaller pleasure boats have Transom sterns for interior and rear deck room.
Just try to find one that sits IN the water rather than ON the water.
and go for a deep Hull form. Rather than deep KEEL design. They have been known to "Trip" a boat in extreme beam on seas.
Round bilge are rolly pigs. But you get used to it. and can always use Floppers. Or if steel. Weld on some Bilge boards.
Macka17

 

[sunchaser]

Blue water vessels require a blue water crew. Sailboats are not automatically blue water vessels, it depends on design and suitabiity/condition of all gear.

Assuming one has a blue water crew and money, Marin's list of Nordhavn could be added to by tossing in some but not all models*of the following MVs:
<ul>[*]Northern Marine[*]Selene[*]Dashew's FPB[*]Fleming[*]Krogen[*]DeFever[*]Diesel Duck[*]Seaton's and Neville's*Designs[*]OAs[*]Watson[/list]
Several of the above would require additional window covers and fuel bladders.

Canoe sterns although nice to look at, have been rendered passe by* tank tests. Look not further than modern blue water sail boats to see this is the case.

A very important development in blue water cruising today is bad weather avoidance. With the right communications gear and a weather router, storm fronts can be largely bypassed.


-- Edited by sunchaser on Thursday 3rd of November 2011 08:52:11 AM

 

[Nomad Willy]

Tom says:

"canoe sterns although nice to look at, have been rendered passe by tank tests"

It could only be that you're talking only about canoe sterns above the WL? With seas from astern I see no equal to some sort of canoe stern. Perhaps you've been looking at too much Dashew stuff. Just because some Ocean traveling guru comes along dos'nt mean it's time to change basic blue water design standards. Show me a stern that will be better than this canoe stern.*

What's the difference between a blue water vessel and a Passagemaker other than range?

 

[sunchaser]

Eric

Three*things you may find interesting to Google
<ul>[*]Youtube Fast*pilot boats Pathfinder - An amazing display of what a modern blue water vessel can do without a canoe stern[*]Dashew's adoption of FPB design philosophy. His website is*the best I*have found for describing MV design,* fuel economy decisions and rough weather handling*- and backing it up with not dreams but real builds and sea trials. Nordhavn pales in comparison for website details[*]Government designs utilizing FPB concepts for patrol work - just look at a CG vessel stern[/list]
As I said, canoe sterns are nice to look at.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Tom,

I have'nt searched yet but I suspect that canoe sterns are best but there are lots of other sterns that work very very well. But I will search after brekfast and my morning shower.*

 

[Marin]

sunchaser wrote:

A very important development in blue water cruising today is bad weather avoidance. With the right communications gear and a weather router, storm fronts can be largely bypassed.

Last weekend I met a friend of a friend who just ferried an 80' aluminum power cat (passenger ferry) from SoCal to Hawaii and upon being informed that the boat had been sold again to a company in Alaksa, from Hawaii to Everett, WA.* It was interesting to hear that he had a weather guy "assigned" to him and several other boats making the crossing. The weather guy kept him apprised of any developments and steered him around local storms and disturbances.* This same person was also "controlling" some sailboats making the trip, two of which were running out of fuel.* Unfortunately they were too far away from the cat as the captain told me that they were using less fuel than anticipated on the trip so could have sold them some.

At one point their weather "controller" warned them about a big system coming up from the south and said the faster they could get off the ocean the better.* Since they had the fuel to do it, they pushed the speed up a few knots and got out of the way.

So it's not quite as lonely out there as I would have expected.

Their navigation was easy, though.* In Hawaii they put in some waypoints to get them out of the harbor and around the east end of Oahu and then their next waypoint was off the entrance to Juan de Fuca Strait a few thousand miles away.* He said it was no different than when we drive our boat 23 miles to Sucia Island following our GPS plotter.* The only difference were the deviations they made from this great circle course suggested by their weather controller.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The Pathfinder video shows rocket boats from a distance. Could'nt fine anything about sterns in the Dashew stuff. Talks a lot about bows though. I suspect that you think that the existence if the Dashews boats indicates they are better (safer) at sea. The ability to surf adds a whole new dimension to blue water performance (basically downwind) or/and in breaking sea inlets. But Dashews boats are'nt normal boats. With a slower boat seas pass under the stern going downwind and without surfing the double end canoe stern is best in my opinion. There are aircraft (Blackbird?) that have flat surfaces and straight lines only but that dos'nt mean Airbus and Boeing should go that route. And I'll bet the CG boats have squarish sterns for speed. After all they are in a business that frequently requires speed. I do'nt think any of this indicates we should consider that the canoe stern in average proportioned boats is'nt the most seaworthy stern. Are you saying the fishboat I posted a picture of would be better off in a big sea w a squarish stern?

 

[Marin]

nomadwilly wrote:
Are you saying the fishboat I posted a picture of would be better off in a big sea w a squarish stern?

I don't know dipsquat about the hydrodynamics of hull forms other than what makes a planing hull work, but I can say that in a following or quartering waves of anything about three feet or larger our GB gets shoved around pretty good.* On rough SE-S-SW wind days coming home across Bellingham Bay is constant work at the wheel to keep the boat headed in the right direction.

I've never driven a canoe-stern or double-ended boat in these conditions so I can't say what it's actually like to the helmsman.* But logic would say that it would not be shoved around nearly as hard or as much as our flat-ass GB.

I don't know if it's like Bruce anchors where everybody uses them because everybody uses them but it's been my observation that most of the sailboats people choose for cruising---- not racing--- in the open ocean are double-ended or canoe-sterned.

A wide, square stern offers a lot of advantages in terms of usable room in the boat.* The salmon trollers built in the Puget Sound area back in the 1940s were mostly double-ended or at least round-ended.* As the boats got bigger this changed to square sterns although they are still somewhat rounded as opposed to almsot dead flat like most production recreational boats these days.* So my guess is that as the fishing boats got larger and their gear evolved, a broad stern became more important than ease of movement through the water.* Folloing seas could be dealt with with power, big rudders, hydraulic assist, etc.*

But the fact the boats have evolved this way would not seem to imply that a double end or canoe stern is no longer the optimum shape.* Two and two doesn't suddenly start equalling five.* So it seems to me that Eric's assessment is correct.

 

[skipperdude]

I think we need to talk to someone that has driven both types. But I don't know of any double enders on the forum.

I have a flat stern and been slapped around on some following seas to almost pitch poling. or shoved into a broach. Would a liked to have hads a point on the back end a few times.

SD

*

 

[Nomad Willy]

Can't remember any other double end boats on the forum other than our Willards. No Fishers. But my memory is'nt very good. Stern seas are one of the places where Willards shine. On three foot seas corrections are a one handed back and forth motion w one hand that can be done for many hours. It does get very repetitive and tiresome but not physically. A casual motion like changing lanes on the freeway. 4 and 5' seas require more helm movement, more effort but still a one handed operation. Two or 3 hours of it and I'm at least a bit tired. Six to 7' seas require 1/3 rudder corrections * * * (1/2 turn of helm). The slightly rockered keel, the rudder and other design elements may have a bigger part in the stern sea capabilities than the stern shape. Especially since the Willard is'nt a true canoe stern boat. More like a round stern. But I've never been in stern seas that I considered threatening. I think the more the stern looks like the bow the better the directional stability in stern seas. A diamond shaped boat would seem ideal. But all this is assuming that we're not trying to go faster than the waves. They say a planing boat is best for running an inlet w breaking seas.*

Tom, * About your list of bluewater boats if it were my list three would get tossed. But the Neville and Seaton boats are at least 2 thumbs up. And the Willard 40 would get added.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 3rd of November 2011 03:13:15 PM

 

[sunchaser]

Eric

My list was for newer builds. Unfortunately the great Willards made today are for government issue only. It would be great fun to tour their new build facility.

 

[Phil Fill]

*
It would be beneficial if you went to a Trawler Fest, actually go on different trawler and took some courses offered.* There are very few true Blue Water boats and they usually have a higher price.* Also take a walk through the commercial and pleasure yards so you can see what is under the water line which is equally/more important than what is above the water line. The looks of a boats super structure is not an indicator its a blue water boat.* **
*
A fantail/trawler/rounded stern is many respects are similar to canoe stern. The wave/water passes under and around the*stern without much resistance. Viewed from below the water line they have many similarities.* The advantage of a fantail/trawler/rounded stern is having wide stern deck. So there are + asmd - for each.
*

95% of the pleasure boat are not blue water boats, but 95% of boaters are not blue water boaters.* So make sure you know what your intended area and use are and then decided the kind of boat that fits the area and intended use.* We happen to own a 58 ft ugly slow Roughwater trawler designed long range coastal blue water.* However we are*not blue water boaters, but it does make a great dock condo also.*There are off brands pleasure boats out there but you have to search them out.* You might want to also*look at*commercial boats that have been converted and/or could be converted.

*

*


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Friday 4th of November 2011 09:18:48 AM

 

[Nomad Willy]

Sunchaser,

If a vessel is in excellent condition it dos'nt matter if it's a "newer build". And 30 years ago they may have made vessels of a design no longer available *...perhaps a highly desirable design *..like a Willard. BUT, in your defense most people do'nt keep their boats up so ther'es a great deal of junk out there but there are many gems too. I've seen some recently on YachtWorld. And since lots of people think only newer things can be any good often these older gems can be a better buy than "newer builds". Only a very serious survey can reveal what boats are gems and each of the boat's owners need to be in the frame of mind that total maintenance is just the cost of doing business. But in view of the fact that most people just keep their heads above water maintenance wise you are probably right about excluding "older builds". I stand down.

 

[Nomad Willy]

For those that are interested there is a thread on canoe sterns v/s transom sterns on Boat Design.net. It's in the powerboat section and has 13 posts at this time. So before you add a pointy end to your stern *.....

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/powerboats/double-ended-vs-transom-fuel-efficiency-40407.html