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Old 07-15-2011, 05:34 PM   #41
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RE: Bitten!

Yes there are a lot of rivers to explore down here, Charles. BTW, Patterson was one of my favorite bases to fly out of when I was with Air Logistics. I've played hundreds of holes at Achafalaya and I've eaten hundreds of crabs and crawfish at Susie's in Morgan City. I'm working out of Venice now, but I'm offshore for my whole hitch. I miss the exposure to the REAL Louisiana culture along US 90.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:31 AM   #42
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RE: Bitten!

"Is it worth the burden of ownership only to use a trawler locally?"

The burden of keeping a well maintained boat up are minor.

Any thing that might die should be replaced with commercial grade , not yacht grade.

The largest cost is usually a slip and if required insurance.

Pay for the boat , and you may wish to contemplate "self insurance".

A mooring ball will usually rent for 1/5 to 1/10 of a dockside slip.

A proper cruising boat should be able to operate with out a power cord or noisemaker , if the new boat is not outfitted for this , the ca$h savings will easily pay for the various upgrades.

DO it now ,
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:59 AM   #43
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Bitten!

Quote:
Alfton wrote:Baker wrote:
And as I type this my wife texts me about a boat that I have been lusting for going on sale for a song.......talk about bitten!!!!!!!!!!!
*What boat do you lust for baker?

*A Sabre 36 Sedan!!!!

*

And Ringer, I honestly don't think you can go wrong with Californian. *I would even go so far as to say the one thing Egregious pointed out as a negative MIGHT have been adress in newer builds. *Newer Californians usually do not have window leak issues...at least the ones I have looked at. *Also, don't overlook the 38/43 Motoryachts. *The 43 is a 38 with a 5ft cockpit. *Those boats are quite large for their size and appear to be a great value when looking for volume in a boat. *They are ocassionally powered by Detroits so shop accordingly. *Anyway, good luck!!! *Exciting times ahead!!!


-- Edited by Baker on Monday 18th of July 2011 08:02:32 AM
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:08 AM   #44
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Bitten!

Well, its on now! After accepting an invitation to take a guided tour of a beautiful GB42, we're sold. I kinda figured we would be. Thanks Steve and Rich! It was amazingly informative to be given a tour of a boat that wasn't for sale. Well, everything is for sale, as our host explained, but he wasn't trying to sell us the boat. With such a low pressure demonstration we were able to learn about all of the little issues, gripes and complaints as well as all of the positive aspects. Not only have we eliminated just about every other sort of boat we may have been interested in, but we've also made some new friends who have a wealth of experience and information to share. Again, I want to say thanks to the membership here for being so polite and professional. My other cyber hang-outs are a little less cordial. Something else I have noticed is that most folks on here are not ashamed or afraid to admit that they learned by trial and error. While there are some very experienced skippers here, that experience hasn't come cheap or easy and these hard lessons are very freely shared here. On other boating boards, some contributors claim to be experts and back up that claim by their number of posts, but their actual contribution to the boating community ends there.

So, I'm just going to ask one more question for now...broker, or no broker? Advantages, disadvantages? Is there a dollar amount that necessitates a broker, or can even a 6 figure deal be done privately with no representation? (I know I said one question, but one answer can answer all of that!)


-- Edited by nehringer on Monday 18th of July 2011 08:10:50 AM
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:37 AM   #45
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RE: Bitten!

Quote:
nehringer wrote:

So, I'm just going to ask one more question for now...broker, or no broker? Advantages, disadvantages? Is there a dollar amount that necessitates a broker, or can even a 6 figure deal be done privately with no representation? (I know I said one question, but one answer can answer all of that!)



-- Edited by nehringer on Monday 18th of July 2011 08:10:50 AM
*To me there is no difinitive answer to your question.* A broker that is acting on your befalf can be invaluable.* On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with a deal between two individuals.

Whichever you choose, it will be up to you to do due dilligence and become an informed consumer.* By asking questions, you are on the right track.* Research the boats you are interested in.* Find their value as well as short comings.* Remember, list prices and sell prices are not usually the same.* A excellent surveryor can be of immense help in keeping you out of trouble.* However, remember even the best are not perfect.* There can be many hidden things on a boat.

The quest for a boat can be an adventure.* You will see much and learn much.* As you gain knowledge, you will be more comfortable with your selection.* Take your time.* A Grand Banks?* They are at the top of the line for their style boat.* Even they can have problems like older fuel tanks.* No boat will be without its problems.* However, if it wasn't worth it, would we own boats?
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:07 AM   #46
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RE: Bitten!

Oh, I didn't mean we were sold on the GB. I mean, its lovely, but there are lots of others out there. Nothing is out of the question at this point. I'm really looking forward to the whole process, but I am trying to remain cautiously enthusiastic about it. Getting all jazzed up like a little boy in a toy store has gotten ALL of us into trouble at some point!
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:34 AM   #47
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RE: Bitten!

No big deal to do without a broker , but a good surveyor and a power train survey (different guy) would be part of the requirement.

Many common flaws can be found on the net , as well as the repairs.

Dave Pascoe's book is good for many brands and styles.
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Old 07-18-2011, 11:15 AM   #48
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Bitten!

Quote:
nehringer wrote:


So, I'm just going to ask one more question for now...broker, or no broker? Advantages, disadvantages?
*Like everything else in boating, the right answer is..... it depends.* We would not have found the boat we have today if it had not been for a broker.*

Boats are a lot like real estate, I've learned.* The broker "community" often shares information about what's coming on the market before it actually does.* That was the case with the boat we bought.* Previous owner had just purchased a GB46 and didn't want to own two boats.* So as he ran his GB46 down the coast from Vancouver, BC to Alalameda, CA he instructed his broker to put his old GB36 on the market.* His broker had a relationship with the GB dealership in Bellingham/Seattle so the first thing he did was give them a call and asked them if they had anyone interested in an older GB36.* That was the day we walked into the dealership to inquire about buying an older GB.* So the boat we bought never even hit the market.

A good broker will know a whole lot more about the kinds of boats you're interested in than you do at this point (as was the case with us).* So they can be the difference between finding a good boat or searching for months or even years on your own.* Or worse, buying a bad boat.

BUT..... brokers are like every other sales "professional.* There are good ones who genuinely have their customers' interests at heart, and there are the ones who are just in it for the sale and the money.* We were lucky--- the GB broker we made an appointment with turned out to be outstanding.* He even flew to California with us to help check out the boat at no cost to us.* And he has remained a good friend.* But for every one of those stories there is a story about how a bad broker took some customer for a ride or didn't do them any favors at all.

So you need to shop for a broker somewhat the same as you shop for a boat. Ask around, get opinons from buyers who have used the various brokers in your area, meet with them to check them out yourself, and so on.

For a long-time boater with a lot of experience with boats of this type, who does a lot of his own maintenance and repair work and so understands the construction, engines, and systems of boats, a broker may not be much of an advantage or any advantage at all.* But for someone new to this kind of boating I believe a broker can help narrow the search and help you evaluate what particular boat(s) might best suit you.* But you need to find the right broker, just as you need to find the right boat.

Were we ever to be in a position to buy a different boat we would use a broker again.* Mainly to save time.* We like boating but we don't like it enough to spend hours or days poring over ads and looking at boat after boat.* We have more important things to do with our time so we are happy to leave the search aspect to a good broker, the keyword being "good."* But we would also use a broker because were we ever to buy a different boat, the make and model we would buy is one we have no familiarity with in tems of construction, systems, potential problems, etc. and so we're not in a good positioni to judge if a particular example was good, bad or indifferent.* We know a lot more than we did before we got into this kind of boating but we don't know enough to accurately evaluate the specific make of boat we would buy.* So we'd want help with that and a good broker can really help with that.

PS--- FF mentioned David Pascoe.* It's worth it to check out Pascoe's extensive website on which he gives his opinon on many makes and models of boats, listing both the good and the bad features of each of them.* You have to do this with the understanding that Pascoe is very opinionated (who isn't in this field?) and his opinions tend to run to the negative side.* However he words his opinons as though they are gospel so you need to read his stuff with this in mind--- it's good information to have but it's not gospel. It's one guy's opinion and he's not always right.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 18th of July 2011 11:22:58 AM
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:24 PM   #49
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RE: Bitten!

I looked at his website and while I found most of the information useful, his book is a little high. I have David Kroenkes's book, "Know your boat" and I find his information entertaining as well as useful. I bought the book a few years ago and although most of the information in it was geared towards more complex systems, like with trawlers, it worked for my application. At the time I was new to inboards and I learned a great deal from it. I'd like to find another book that addresses more systems in greater detail, but for now this will work. I'll just couple the text with what I can glean online and hopefully make a well informed decision...in a year or so.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:16 PM   #50
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RE: Bitten!

Quote:
nehringer wrote:
I'd like to find another book that addresses more systems in greater detail, ....
*As you can imagine there are tons of books out there on just about every boating subject you can think of.* In terms of more detailed information I'll list a few books that I've found very helpful and informative on specific systems.* I'm sure plenty of others will chime in with books on systems, maintenance, etc. that they've found helpful, too.

"Marine Diesel Engines" by Nigel Calder

"The Radar Book" by Kevin Monahan

"Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual" by Nigel Calder

"The Complete Book of Mooring and Anchoring" by Earl Hinz

"Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood" by Rebecca Whitman

"How to Read a Nautical Chart" by Kevin Monahan
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:40 AM   #51
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Bitten!

"I looked at his website ( Dave Pascoe)and while I found most of the information useful, his book is a little high."

You are going to dump $20K to $200K in a hole in the water and under $100 bucks knowledge book is "a little high"?

Perhaps you should research "boat bucks" , and keep trolling to learn the cost of purchasing a vessel unsuitable to your needs.

Many folks make the mistake that mere volume or a splash of wood has great value,

when the value is actually the package , design , construction ,materials , interior function , machinery installation , scantlings , and out fitting choices (dock queen , cruiser , all weather comfort).

All these need to be considered to make an intelligent selection of boats that will suit your intended use "Desirements".

If you are up to speed on all this it is still worthwhile to have help seperiating the gold from the dross. A survey will not help.


-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 19th of July 2011 03:41:57 AM
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:41 AM   #52
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RE: Bitten!

FF, if the book in question is a recognized text used by the ABYC or in Marine Surveyor training, then I can understand the exorbitant price. I'm not a book guy. With so much information available today on the internet, the information books contain is just about obsolete. I didn't say books were obsolete...just some of the information. Its disproportionate to me to pay so much money for information that is available in other media forms. There are certain texts and informational printed media I like to keep on the shelf and for many of my books, I paid more than I wanted to, but they were required for a course and cost a little more. Original printings of timeless classics, best sellers, etc are other examples of expensive books. The cost of an informational book isn't exactly offset by the cost of the interest that the book covers. I've got a pretty good grip on those elements that form the value of a vessel, and I am very familiar with the cost of an unsuitable vessel.

A boat IS a major investment...(not in the sense that there is any financial return, but rather a significant and recurring financial commitment). It makes plenty of sense to back up this investment with the best and most accurate collection of information available. I don't think its fair to assign a monetary value to that information. I just think the price of printed media in this day and age is a little disproportionate.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:07 AM   #53
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RE: Bitten!

And FYI, most of the books in Marin's list are considered "classics"....or "bibles" of their intended audience and use.

And as far as "investment"....think of boating as a cost...and not an investment. And ultimately what we are trying to help you with is getting the most value for that cost. And most of the value derived from boating is not in the hardware....it is in the enjoyment you get out of it which is pretty tough to measure.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:35 AM   #54
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RE: Bitten!

Quote:
And FYI, most of the books in Marin's list are considered "classics"....or "bibles" of their intended audience and use.
I will second that.

Several of them are outstanding references regardless of your level of knowledge or experience.

Regarding Pascoe's book, I think Mr. Nehringer made a wise decision. A lot of what Pascoe writes is technical nonsense and opinion that is not supported by facts. He is second*on my list of*machinery "gurus"*who are best*ignored.*
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:09 AM   #55
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RE: Bitten!

Quote:
nehringer wrote:
I'm not a book guy. With so much information available today on the internet, the information books contain is just about obsolete.
*The problem with the internet it that it makes everyone equal. If it's in print, it must be right, right?* With a book (print or e-book) the chances are pretty good that the author knew his/her subject and, while the text may still be one person's opinion or view on a particular subject, the effort to research, write, publish, market, and distribute the book means it's most likely going to be pretty credible information.

The internet, on the other hand, gives equal credibility to both the fool and the genius.* I requires virtually no effort to "publish" on the internet.* All you have to be able to do is type and hit "enter."* Witness many of the postings or quoted "articles" on the "Off The Deep End" section of this forum alone. There's a reason for sites like Snopes--- so much crap is on the internet there is actually a market for services to try to help people tell the crap from the truth.

The internet is a wonderful thing.* As a writer, I have found it an invaluable tool for both of the books I am currently writing.* In fact, I write with two windows open on the screen--- my manuscript and Google.* For looking up facts--- the price of gasoline in Rhode Island in 1942 as an example of someting I needed to know for one book, or the reason for the Great Seattle Fire for the other book--- it's terrific.

But to learn the proper use of radar or the best techniques for anchoring a boat, I will take a book by a credible, experienced expert on the subject over the writings and posts I see on the internet every time.* Not that what some people say on these subjects on the internet isn't correct, but I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't unless I already know how to do it and can so judge what others area saying.* And if I know the subject well enough to be able to separate the crap from the truth, well, then I don't need the information anyway---* I already have it.

The internet exceptions are people I personally know have the necessary experience, knowledge, and professional background to be true experts on a subject.* A good example is Bob Lowe on the Grand Banks owners forum.* For years Bob managed Oak Harbor Boatworks in Washington State, a boatyard that specialized in the maintenance, repair, and restoration of Grand Banks boats, both wood and fiberglass.* From his years of experience Bob knows just about everything there is to know about these boats.* While he hasn't written a book on the subject, I know that if he did it would become a "bible" in the same way the books I listed above have become.* So Bob is a person who posts on the internet that I give complete credibiilty to. But people like this are, in my view, few and far between.* For example there* is only one person (in my view) who fits this category on TrawlerForum, for example.

While the nature of books is changing with e-books and the like, what they represent has not changed.* Whether you want to know what led to the outbreak of WWI or how to repair damaged wood on a boat, I believe a book--- whether you read it on paper pages or off a Kindle or iPad screen--- is still the best, most reliable source of acurate and valuable information out there.
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:33 PM   #56
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RE: Bitten!

A very good point that I have never really thought about, Marin. Even Snopes sometimes seems to have a slant to it so I even question them sometimes.....but I definitely get your point and it is a good one!!!
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:46 PM   #57
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RE: Bitten!

One needs to know something of the sources to help evaluate their message.* In most instances this isn't possible on the Internet.* Nevertheless, printed material is frequently wrong or incomplete.

Newspaper accounts of audits I was directly involved with were usually*partly wrong and incomplete.

The published account of my father's B-17 abandonment after being hit with AAA over Germany gave a sanitized version*not mentioning one crewman's reluctance to jump causing delay for some of the crew, and it*didn't mention the fortuitousness of my father's practice of equipping the plane with a couple of extra parachutes as one crew member's chute was damaged.
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:13 PM   #58
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RE: Bitten!

I make a distinction between a book--- and in this discussion we're talking about books on various aspects and techniques of boating-- and "The Media" in the form of newspapers, magazines, etc. "The Media" very often gets things wrong as Mark points out. They are particularly ignorant when it comes to any sort of technical field--- aviation, the oil industry, shipping industry, nuclear power, etc.--- so with a few exceptions I generally give them little more credibility than "writings" on the internet.

But a book by an author who did his or her research or has a long career of being involved with the subject or is an expert on whatever the book is about is still, in my opinion, as credible and accurate an treatise on the subject as one can find. Particularly on the kinds of topics we are talking about here--- boat systems, boat maintenance, boating techniques, and so on.

But authors are people, too, and they have opinions, they make decisions about what to include in a book and what to leave out, and they have reasons-- perhaps not always the best ones--- for portraying an event in a particular way. But by and large someone who goes to the huge effort--- and believe me, it is a huge effort--- to write a book most likely is or has become a credible expert on whatever he or she is writing about.

This is a far cry from the internet where anyone can write up any old crap they want based on hearsay, rumors, their own beliefs, or just plain untruths, post it to a forum or a web page or whatever at which point, if they are even halfway decent writers, an amazingly large number of people will glom onto their crap as gospel. This can apply as much to posts on the best oil for an engine as it can to some political or social topic. So when it comes to the internet, reader beware.
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Old 07-19-2011, 05:48 PM   #59
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RE: Bitten!

Here, here! Thus my whole contention with...that OTHER boating website. I received Chapman's as a hand-me-down. As the son of a son of a sailor, I thought it was a most appropriate gift. I intend to collect certain volumes of nautical texts, but they will be of the titles that you referred to earlier. I also have a condensed Chapman's that will be a permanent part of my ship's library.
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:07 AM   #60
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Bitten!

I just think the price of printed media in this day and age is a little disproportionate.

A Limited market equals a higher price for the authors efforts , no one works for nothing .

The "value" of any publication is defined by the experience of the reader.

I ran a yard and was an OEM for years , but have not surveyed over 1000 boats , so am happy to pay for the OPINIONS of someone not selling anything BUT his opinion.

WE all use different tools to solve problems , but to me "Knowledge is Power "(F.Bacon) seems to work.

*

What type of boat , which style of boat would work for you is quite different from how to add a battery switch.


-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 04:09:08 AM
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