Bilge pump debate

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I have a two foot by two foot by about half inch thick child's play mat (the kind which notch together) which I use on the boat to help reduce the impact to my knees when having to kneel down. I think it might perform very nicely as a collision mat. It is stiff enough to suck up nicely to a hole and can be cut into smaller sections if needed.
 
A 2' X 2' rubber mat that notch together would not be adequate for a collision mat.

A 6' X 8' silver or blue heavier, better quality tarp would work better. Tie long lines to the grommets for attachment.

A larger collission tarp would be easier to locate over a hole that is under the water and not visible. A smaller mat may not cover a large hole or would be difficult to seal out water. Once the mat gets installed, water pressure will keep it against the hull so the larger the tarp, more sealing area.

The collission mat also needs to be heavy enough that the splintered fiberglass around the hole will not puncture the mat material. And the water pressure, depending on how deep the hole is located, will try to push the mat into the hole so a thicker tarp will work better.

We actually practiced using a collision mat at the maritime academy I attended. They had a life boat with a large hole on the bottom, slung into the water for practice. The sling kept the boat from sinking or capsizing when the students were not fast enough and lifted the lifeboat to empty the water. We had to do the exercise in survival suits. It was fun to watch but not fun to do.
 

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With the mat in place, you can slowly proceed to a haul out facility if close.

If not, with the mat keeping the water out, underwater epoxy can be used to patch the hole from inside the boat. Shelves, bench tops, plywood floor hatches or whatever you have available can be used to patch the hole temporary with the epoxy. Oars, boat hooks etc can be wedged to hold the patches in place. Cushions, pillows or anything can be used to slow the flow.

I've read about crazy sailboaters continuing their voyages for months with an emergency patch after holing their boat in the middle of the ocean.
 
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I've read about crazy sailboaters continuing their voyages for months with an emergency patch after holing their boat in the middle of the ocean.


I would not call necessity "crazy"? If you are in the middle of the the ocean, you have no alternatives to putting 1000 miles on a temporary patch.


But I am installing three 3700 GPH pumps in my bilge. The previous owner had two 200 gph pumps. If I get a hole, I want to get home. If 10,000 an hour isnt enough them the emergency locater beacon, insurance, and dinghy will take over.
 
I would not call necessity "crazy"? If you are in the middle of the the ocean, you have no alternatives to putting 1000 miles on a temporary patch.
.

Crazy as being on a single handed around the world race and running into something when sleeping.

Not the patching.
 
Well, I must be crazy then.
 
"But I am installing three 3700 GPH pumps in my bilge."

Pump ratings are mostly BS.

Why not put some water in your bilge and pump it overboard and see how long it takes to fill a 5 gal pail?

A good experiment for every boater. Usually shocking!
 
"But I am installing three 3700 GPH pumps in my bilge."

Pump ratings are mostly BS.

Yes, they're rated under very much ideal conditions. But a lot do give a chart to determine actual flow based on discharge head. As a safe estimate, figure that any 12v submersible (centrifugal) bilge pump will output half of its rating as-installed, maybe a little more if you're lucky. So those 3700s should be treated as being 1850 - 2000 gph for actual capacity (assuming a decent plumbing layout).
 
A small 1" dia. thru-hull located 2 feet below the water line will let in 28 gpm. Your typical 500 gph bilge pump pumps out 8.3 gpm. Suggest you store some wooden plugs near each of your boats thru-hulls.
Cheers Steve Dublin
USCG 100 ton.

I note your signature USCG. You should have a tale or two to relate to what you have said.
My query is yes, if you have the plugs on board why not save time and place the right size where holes exist (thru hulls). But what about a mallet or is palm of hand enough.
Anyway, how does a thru hull become free of the hose attached to not encumber a free flowing thru hull that can then be plugged. Hose rot? Still to plug a thru hull means somewhere the hose has failed, and so has the shut off to necessitate the procedure.
I have 7 thru hulls, 5 of which requires a contortionist. During the time I am calling out Mayday, preparing the crew for offloading into the dingy there surely be enough water to make one think twice of going down into the bilge. Or is that why they say the captain goes down with the ship.
 
USCG 100...captains license not necessarily active USCG.


While I agree with some of your scenarios and hose failures....


You should be able to tell from the feel of your vessel taking on water long before it's unsafe to go into the bilge unless you are asleep or off the boat.


If you don't think you are hat experienced yet, well you should anyway have alarms and/or lights that let you know you have started taking on water almost immediately. Easy to do if your boat has any kind of bilge sump.
 
My query is yes, if you have the plugs on board why not save time and place the right size where holes exist (thru hulls). But what about a mallet or is palm of hand enough.

Anyway, how does a thru hull become free of the hose attached to not encumber a free flowing thru hull that can then be plugged. Hose rot? Still to plug a thru hull means somewhere the hose has failed, and so has the shut off to necessitate the procedure.
I have 7 thru hulls, 5 of which requires a contortionist.

Excellent point. By the time you figure out your boat is wallowing, you have several feet of ice cold water in the bilge. Open the hatches, jump in, find your seacocks, and close them. One by one. By now you have a few feet of water in the bilge.

I have the plugs, both wood and foam, but i don't see them as useful in a blown hose scenario. Rub your hands over each hose to find the fault, remove the 2 rusted clamps by feel, (they're probably under water) remove the jammed on hose, not going to happen. Maybe you can cut the hose if you bring your utility knife with you. Cut a spare piece. Under water. Time it.

I think in addition to man overboard drills boaters should conduct close all the seacock drills.
 
Keeping that fire drill manageable is exactly why adequate pumps to keep up with a failure of the largest underwater thru hull is very useful. It means that even if a seacock is snapped off, you won't have several feet of water to deal with, just water flowing in (and being pumped out) and a bit of a mess. But it'll be much easier to find the leak and do something about it as well as minimizing the chance of flooding any critical systems while you're dealing with the issue.
 
I have the plugs, both wood and foam, but i don't see them as useful in a blown hose scenario. Rub your hands over each hose to find the fault, remove the 2 rusted clamps by feel, (they're probably under water) remove the jammed on hose, not going to happen. Maybe you can cut the hose if you bring your utility knife with you. Cut a spare piece. Under water. Time it.

If your leak is from a blown hose, closing the seacock will fix it, the wooden plugs are in case your through hull has failed, this can happen a couple different ways:

The weight of a filled hose thrashing around in violent seas can break a through hull especially if it is a valve screwed onto a through hull fitting (most common) and not a true seacock that is through bolted to the hull. The fittings may have been deteriorated by corrosion, people kicking or stepping on them inadvertently, or heavy objects stored near them striking them. In this case, the metal through hull is probably still in place and you are plugging a hole the inner diameter of the metal fitting.

The through hull itself can corrode through and break off leaving a the actual hole in the hull to plug, which is of course larger than the inner diameter of the fitting. For this reason, your plugs need to have a pretty significant taper to them to account for the various diameters to be plugged.

This past spring I had the garboard fitting corrode through where it passes through the hull. When the boat was launched, I inspect all of the hull penetrations while the boat was hanging in the slings. This time there was a slow leak coming in at the threads of the this plug, I tightened it to no avail and then the yard lifted the boat back up for me twice to reapply Teflon tape to the tapered pipe threads of the plug, it just wouldn't stop leaking and also never came to firm stop when tightening it. After the boat was placed back on stands, I removed the machine screws and pried off the fittings flange from outside of the boat, the flange came off but the remainder of the fitting remained in the hull held in place by caulk, when I removed the remainder, it crumbled in pieces, the caulk was the only thing holding it together and appearing to be solid. Of course, the fitting was original to the boat and all available replacements were different dimensions so I had to glass the hole closed and cut a new hole. I considered leaving it out and just staying with the solid fiberglass but being able to let the hull drain on land during storage is convenient. Anyway, if that leak had not been spotted, it would have probably come free on it's own within the next couple of seasons and sunk the boat. None of the through hull fittings were bonded on this boat and we left it that way but did replace and/or re-bed every fitting during the course of ownership, this garboard being the final piece.
 
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A working bilge alarm will help to avoid a few feet of water in the bilge and thus more easily find the leak. Due to lack of such an alarm on a 60-footer I was delivering, I was forced to swim around in the bige to find the upwelling indicating the leak location. Luckily I had been able to get out of rough waters and into a calm cove allowing the bilge water to settle to a mill pond like surface.
 
"This past spring I had the garboard fitting corrode through where it passes through the hull."

"a true seacock that is through bolted to the hull."

Garboard fittings and cockpit drains frequently have no proper seacocks,

usually a simple to repair project.
 
"This past spring I had the garboard fitting corrode through where it passes through the hull."

"a true seacock that is through bolted to the hull."

Garboard fittings and cockpit drains frequently have no proper seacocks,

usually a simple to repair project.

I'm aware of the difference and intended those to read as separate issues.

I brought up the garboard failure because they are not omnipresent on boats commonly discussed on the forum (unlike a trailered boat), are located deep in the bilge and can be easily overlooked.
 
This past spring I had the garboard fitting corrode through where it passes through the hull. d


What boat ?????



On my 1978 Mainship Mk 1 that fitting is UNDER THE ENGINE, If it failed the boad would SINK. Period....
 
I once watched a big Bertram being launched for the first time. I think it was the last boat to come out of Bertram’s Miami factory. There were a bunch of Bertram employees and big wigs there.

As the travel lift started to lower this huge boat, one of the suits shouted “Did anybody put the plug in?” It was hilarious!
 
What boat ?????



On my 1978 Mainship Mk 1 that fitting is UNDER THE ENGINE, If it failed the boad would SINK. Period....

It was a 1985 Mainship MkIII, it was located in the center of the bilge forward of the lowest step from saloon to the galley. I have no idea if this was a factory install or something installed at a later date but most early mainship 34's that I know of have one somewhere.


The plug I replaced was a 1/2" plug, I was hoping to find a replacement locally but the only ones in stock were tapered for the plug to be installed from the outside of the hull, suitable for a transom install for a smaller boat, the were also either stainless or brass. I ended up ordering a bronze 3/4" Seadog with a T-handled plug and redid the hull penetration to accommodate it.
 
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On my 41' sailboat I have a 2700gph main and 500gph sump pump, both with automatic controls wired to the hot battery bus and switched by solid-state water level sensors mounted a different heights above the bilge.
No mickey-mouse Rule float switches to get fouled by debris.
After that I have a float sensor, which is also wired to the hot battery bus, just before the level of the floor boards. It sets of the loudest and scariest warning horn ever which will wakeup everyone in the marina. Oh, I also have a manual pump in the cockpit as well.

I've had one failure in 20 years with the solid-state water level sensors. Just keep their sensor eyes clean with a damp cloth every month or so and test regularly.
 
ProMaritime, what kind of sensors do you use?
 
Thanks Pro, starting to see more of those field effect switches. Rule put one in their LoPro automatic pump. Glad to hear it’s a reliable switch system.

I have no idea how it works. Must be magic.
 
Again, 'Lo All,
When I got the Celestial, it had a dinky Rule pump. I immediately replaced it sort of in the manner outlined in post #19. The Albin 43 did not have a true sump, but water did run to a low spot in the forward keel and to the bulkhead just aft of mid-ship. I found that to get the water up to the one existing thru-hull with a loop up to the bottom of the sole, that the backflow from the hose left more water in the hull than I wanted. I ended up with two Rule 2000's in each compartment - one in the bottom of the keel and one higher- all with individual switches, plus a small Rule pump to remove the remaining water when the larger pumps shut off. There was enough water from the backflow from the hose, that when the Rule 2000 switches were directly on the bottom, the pumps would cycle on and off continuously, so the switches had to be elevated about an inch, leaving more water than I wanted. Hence, the second smaller pump with its smaller hose in each compartment. The prop and rudder shafts always dripped a little water when the shafts turned and I wanted the bilges to be as dry as possible. The lower Rule 2000 pumps could be turned on either automatically or by a switch at the helm, The other pumps were automatic via float switches. I had counters on the lower pumps to tell how many times they turned on. I was surprised at how seldom the pumps actually ran.
 
One of my pumps died so I'll replace it with a slightly larger one no big deal


I started researching how many Gph total should I have on a 42


Builder provided a manual 11gpm drawing from midship under batteries between engines operated by mounted handle in cockpit.


a 3gpm (which I'm replacing with an 8gpm ) this draws from midship also forward also drains shower. This is on a float switch



Also another 6gpm under the companion way



"The bilge pump system is not designed to provide buoyancy to the boat in case of damage.-The bilge pump system is designed to drive out the water being either sea spray or leaks but absolutely not the water coming through a hole in the hull, this hole being the result of a damage"




So I was going to add one or two pumps totaling 4,000 gph, but if that much water in coming in aren't the batteries going to get submerged and stop those pumps?


So I looked at the manual 30 Gpm Whale or Edson with the big handles, but who can keep up that physical work for hours on end until the leak can get slowed or help arrives.
This option looks better then adding two 12v pumps perhaps



stop/slow the leak

NERF footballs are very soft closed cell foam toy football
Great stuff foam
Truplug
soft wood plugs
toilet bowl wax


add your fixes.........




Then last resort life raft.............








Generally bilge pumps and discharge lines and power requirements are sized economically in terms of capacity. Adequate for regular dewatering. We maintain a high capacity emergency potable 3inch bilge pump that can discharge large volume water as in 'holed the boat's. A risk you may want to consider.
 
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