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Old 06-26-2015, 12:26 AM   #121
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Been there done that. That is why I say that dinky little NH and KK types are going to get there ass kicked in really bad conditions and if boats survive the crew is going to be really beat up. The adventure completely depends on relatively benign weather. Fortunately weather forecasting is pretty good but an eight or nine knot boat is not too good at out running or avoiding a big depression. There is a certain thrill and bragging rights to taking risks ergo mountain climbing and sky diving and to some extent ocean hopping.
Wow....
Will it be uncomfortable in a Duck, KK, Nordy, or Fleming in big seas... you bet.
Will it be the end of those boats.. not likely. That has been proven plenty of times already.
I take offense at the statement that the owners of such boats do it for "bragging rights"
We all better just sit home on the Lazy Boy and just dream about getting out there and just leave crossing oceans to the 600' ships.



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Old 06-26-2015, 12:37 AM   #122
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Yes, get an ass beating so you can brag. Makes sense right?
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:49 AM   #123
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Yes, get an ass beating so you can brag. Makes sense right?

Makes sense to my son. He pays perfectly good money to get his a$$ kicked in an MMA gym 3 days per week. Suppose some might spend a million plus to try it at sea
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:54 AM   #124
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I'm confused why you keep saying the Ducks lack lounging attributes and they are cave like. Of the four areas for lounging (the saloon, aft cockpit, pilothouse and fly bridge, three of the four areas have spectacular views of the surrounding area. In fact, two of those three have 360 degree views while the aft cockpit has a wonderful 180 degree view. That all said, why you keep insisting the Ducks are too much like living in a cave bewilders me, it's almost like you've never been aboard a Diesel Duck or you have some kind of grudge against them. Just Sayin'
If you cannot see the similarities in the interior layout of MOST ducks and sailboats I guess I shouldn't try to point them out. Can you see out of anything but a port hole from either the salon (not the pilothouse) or the galley? Do the ducks have the comfort (and water level seating area)of a walk out salon to a aft deck?. Does the flybridge have comfortable seating that is covered if one wishes to get out of the sun or rain? underway and not under a boom tent (like a sailboat)?.
I have spent time on 10&2, hands down the highest quality Duck ever built (custom built by a US Yacht building firm in steel that was flawless) and it is a beautiful boat.. but still not that comfortable.

What I DO like is that the duck is fast and efficient.. if I was going to do a 2 year circumnavigation a Duck would be great.. no time to sit around and lounge on deck anyway. 3 or 4 year trip.. no way!

By the way, I also spent time one afternoon on a Duck (the name escapes me but it was powder blue) in Costa Rica that had absolutely no seating on deck except for walmart white plastic chairs.. it had if I recall a bench seat in the pilot house and no other seating above the salon down below
(where you get to look through those shippy port holes). That said they were out there doing it.. sans comfort.

Your 492 is a great looking boat. Enjoy it and don't get too worked up that others like some other production boat.

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Old 06-26-2015, 01:09 AM   #125
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Well I'll grant you the limited fuel tank on the Elling but as for the rest, by all accounts these things go well into the "seaworthy" category. A full skeg, Kevlar in the hull, up to a 475 hp motor, and euro ocean ratings that claim it can handle 25ft seas. They also claim 1.5 to 2 gph at 7.5kts cruise. In 2008 they took 3 of them across the Atlantic in 16 days and all they had to do is add some additional fuel capacity. I don't mean to sound like their rep, honestly we're very early in our boat-buying research. But I have to say I'd feel pretty safe in this thing off shore.
What it can do vs what it was designed to do are too different things. They would have put more than a 380-400 gallon fuel tank if their design was ocean crossing. Also those fuel numbers mentioned are based on one of their lower horsepower engines. They advertise optional engines for speeds up to 15-19 knots. Well, you can't have it both ways. To me they're a very sturdy coastal and short trip crossing boat. hey're a fine boat, but I'd take more information to agree to them equaling the other mentioned boats in seaworthiness. But short of crossing oceans I'd be very confident in them. So offshore, yes. Ocean crossing, not convinced.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:13 AM   #126
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Makes sense to my son. He pays perfectly good money to get his a$$ kicked in an MMA gym 3 days per week. Suppose some might spend a million plus to try it at sea

Lol, but at least he's doing it for a learning experience and not to brag!



My names Oliver and I've been across the gulfstream. (Level ten bada$$)
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:35 AM   #127
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Lol, but at least he's doing it for a learning experience and not to brag!



My names Oliver and I've been across the gulfstream. (Level ten bada$$)
Some things I never needed to try to know they weren't for me. The idea of two people beating up on each other is one.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:48 AM   #128
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Some things I never needed to try to know they weren't for me. The idea of two people beating up on each other is one.

Yeah, but it makes some great entertainment.

Soccer fails on YouTube come to mind.
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Old 06-26-2015, 02:18 AM   #129
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Been there done that. That is why I say that dinky little NH and KK types are going to get there ass kicked in really bad conditions and if boats survive the crew is going to be really beat up. The adventure completely depends on relatively benign weather. Fortunately weather forecasting is pretty good but an eight or nine knot boat is not too good at out running or avoiding a big depression. There is a certain thrill and bragging rights to taking risks ergo mountain climbing and sky diving and to some extent ocean hopping.
This is probably incorrect in every part.

On the scale of a 7 knot boat, wx forecasting is NOT significantly better than it was, it just appears to be to those who do not understand it.

Yes, crew would not be happy, but boat would be OK.

And if you think it's like sky diving, have you done either, since you talk with so much experience??
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Old 06-26-2015, 07:36 AM   #130
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"all they had to do is add some additional fuel capacity..." Yes, and how is that typically done and how does that additional weight effect the designed stability. Rubber bladder type tanks are typically used. I remember and cherish the words of my father that warned me to be careful on a river tube trip. He stated he did not want me to leave this world the same way I came into it ....broken rubber.
It is best IMHO to use a boat that was designed from the beginning for the purpose that you wish to use it.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:39 AM   #131
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Greetings,
Mr. z. "what is the best blue water trawler"....Oh dear, and what kind of anchor does it have?


Haha


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Old 06-26-2015, 10:48 AM   #132
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I think the original question was answered back in post #14.


Another question has developed. Just WHY do we want to cross that ocean. It seems some boaters dream to do it one day, and others can think of nothing worse.


I'm in the first category, but for some reason I would prefer to do it in a something less able than a Watson. Besides the cost factor, I would think I'd enjoy it more crossing in something like a KK if properly prepared. It may not be as comfortable, but that is not what I yearn for. If I just wanted comfort, I'd stay at home.
I would want enough of a challenge to feel personally tested, without putting my safety (or my crew's safety) at an unacceptable level of risk.


I guess everyone has their own levels for the amount of challenge and risk they want to take on. I know some who feel flying across an ocean is beyond their challenge and risk limits.
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:00 AM   #133
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Wow....
Will it be uncomfortable in a Duck, KK, Nordy, or Fleming in big seas... you bet.
Will it be the end of those boats.. not likely. That has been proven plenty of times already.
I take offense at the statement that the owners of such boats do it for "bragging rights"
We all better just sit home on the Lazy Boy and just dream about getting out there and just leave crossing oceans to the 600' ships.



HOLLYWOOD
I take some minor offense at making light of the risk. I and some two hundred plus CG crew risked our ship and lives to bail out five recreational ocean hoppers in a Atlantic depression. CG crew put their lives on the line and ocean hopping does increase the risk ask your insurance company. Recreational boaters can do a lot of boating without the ocean hopping aspect. Logic and reason are not always part of the risk taking mentality and do not go over well with sky divers mountain climbers and similar recreational thrill seekers. I personally do not care if people take additional risks but I do care that tax dollars and CG personnel have to bail them out. It would be nice if the risk takers had rescue insurance. The CG is also rethinking its mission assessment. It was always you go out but you don't have to come back, now it is maybe you should not go out if the risk to the CG is too great.
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:37 AM   #134
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I think the original question was answered back in post #14.


Another question has developed. Just WHY do we want to cross that ocean. It seems some boaters dream to do it one day, and others can think of nothing worse.


I'm in the first category, but for some reason I would prefer to do it in a something less able than a Watson. Besides the cost factor, I would think I'd enjoy it more crossing in something like a KK if properly prepared. It may not be as comfortable, but that is not what I yearn for. If I just wanted comfort, I'd stay at home.
I would want enough of a challenge to feel personally tested, without putting my safety (or my crew's safety) at an unacceptable level of risk.


I guess everyone has their own levels for the amount of challenge and risk they want to take on. I know some who feel flying across an ocean is beyond their challenge and risk limits.
We would prefer comfort but want to be fully prepared for all levels of discomfort from choice of boat, to preparation of boat, to medical kit and knowledge on board to crew. We also want to get the feel of boating, take the helm, experience the air and see all there is to see while crossing.

To us it's managed risk and it's managed to our own level of risk tolerance which won't be the same as anyone else's. That's how we set out our requirements. One example of a basic one with us that most don't have is that our first time crossing we want to have a Captain who has done it before. Probably an engineer who has as well. That wouldn't change if we were in a 40' or 300' boat. We want redundancy everywhere feasible and plans in order for any emergency, including abandoning the ship. I'm more comfortable doing things without excessive worry when I understand the worst case and the plans for it.

We also want to avoid exhaustion. We believe it leads to increased danger and mistakes and makes you less able to effectively handle issues when they arise. There must be adequate crew so everyone has a minimum of 10 hours rest per day, 77 hours per week and at least 6 hours (we prefer 8, but minimum of 6) of the daily rest is contiguous allowing one to get a decent's night (or day) of sleep. To us, two people minimum should always be "on duty"-up, alert, available, helping.

And anyone can say "no." Obviously it wouldn't happen without discussion, but if we were sitting in Bermuda watching for a good window to the Azores and one person after studying it with the rest of us felt we were pushing it in light of weather window and potential issues, that it didn't leave us enough room for error, then we wait.

As to flying across an ocean, I'm not one interested in piloting and I want a very large plane, large crew, and the best feeling of safety I can get.

Ironically I look forward to one day crossing the Atlantic. I dread the air trips back and forth over the couple of years time we have a boat there. But then I enjoyed boating in the PNW and Alaska and down the west coast and hated the flights back and forth for that. (Although I must say a long flight with my wife (plus sometimes friends too) never gets boring (She is a cure for boredom). Nothing like when I use to travel alone. But it does take a toll on your body being crammed into a sardine can with low oxygen and a lot of germy people. We're ready to cut loose and go play and have fun by the time we get there.

Ok, that led me to checking some numbers. I knew how many miles on the water we'd put in and how few on land, but I just calculated our air miles in the last 18 months. These were all just getting back and forth to a boat. 27,000. Now to me, air travel is only done as a necessity transportation to get you somewhere. I know for others it's pleasure.
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:18 PM   #135
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At 74 years old, I've been boating ever since I was a young kid. I, however, have never crossed an ocean in anything smaller than an aircraft carrier.

On that carrier (Enterprise) we did experience seas of 25 ft, off Cape Hatteras, which pretty much convinced me that crossing an ocean in anything smaller than CVN 65 was out of the question.

I don't know if I admire people who do it or if I question their good judgement. I do know that when I hear of people that have done a major crossing, I marvel at their tenacity. (being it ill advised or otherwise.)

Coastal cruising has been and still is my favorite part of boating. To be sure, you must pick your weather window but in my opinion it is much more interesting than chugging along for days on end on a featureless, endless ocean passage.

P.S. If someone held a gun at my head and forced me to cross an ocean, I hope it's on a 65' Fleming.
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:25 PM   #136
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P.S. If someone held a gun at my head and forced me to cross an ocean, I hope it's on a 65' Fleming.
And with Tony Fleming and his crew?
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:46 PM   #137
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I'm w eyeshulman (Ed) on this one.

It's mostly bragging rights and all the other related stuff like extra hair on the chest ect that goes w it.
Why do it? Fly there and rent a boat if it's the destination.
However some are motivated just by adventure lust. Read the book "Seven Seas on a Shoe-string" by Dwight Long. A young man on a sailboat going around the world in 1935.
Boaters that go up the inside passage to Alaska almost all of them are hell bent to get to Alaska. Bragging rights .. you bet. They rush through hundreds of miles of wonderful BC coast to get to Alaska. And Alaska isn't much different than northern BC.
If you want to travel .. just travel.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:08 PM   #138
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And with Tony Fleming and his crew?
You bet! I met Tony in San Diego years ago when he was commissioning a boat that was eventually headed to Alabama. (Muscle Shoals I believe.) What a guy! Terribly interesting and very unassuming.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:29 PM   #139
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The man never stops. Just left Dutch Harbor a couple of day ago. You can follow him at https://share.delorme.com/mapshare/v...word?uid=14880 (password is Venture2015), and Fleming Yachts - Tony Fleming's page

He's definitely living my dream and I follow him everywhere.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:48 PM   #140
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Best Blue Water Trawler

Trying renting a boat , let alone fly to a uninhabited atoll in the pacific. I think not. I guess I'm the adventurous one.
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