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Old 06-25-2015, 02:38 PM   #101
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The "Elling" ?. Beautiful boat but I thought we were discussing serious blue water traveling and not "Ocean Ready or Ocean Capable". There is a difference between running out a few miles for the day and crossing oceans. The specs. on the Elling allow a 400 gallon fuel tank with a burn rate of about 1 gallon per 2 mile on their smaller engine and a water tankage of 230 gallons. I think I will stick with my steel hulled Romsdal and 3000 gallons of fuel and a thousand gallons of water storage.
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Old 06-25-2015, 02:40 PM   #102
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I repeat:

"Of the four areas for lounging (the saloon, aft cockpit, pilothouse and fly bridge, three of the four areas have spectacular views of the surrounding area. In fact, two of those three have 360 degree views while the aft cockpit has a wonderful 180 degree view."

Cockpit with U-shaped settee = lounging
Fly bridge with settee and comfy helm chair = lounging
Pilothouse with very large settee = lounging

Now if that is what you consider living in a cave then your opinion is certainly on the opposite end of the spectrum than mine. To me living in a cave is dark and the Duck is far from dark with its large pilothouse windows on all four sides along with a very large U-shaped settee and then there's the cockpit with a large U-shaped settee with 180 degree views. If these aren't lounging areas then I guess I just don't know what a lounging area is. Oh, and let's not forget the fly bridge seating with it's 360 degree views. Again, if these all aren't great lounging areas for happy hour or sitting down and reading a good book then I don't know what is.
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Old 06-25-2015, 02:57 PM   #103
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Seaworthy? http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/seaworthy
I've always considered the term extremely vague. A dugout canoe can be considered "seaworthy" and for their uses, by capable navigators, are. Witness the expansion of the Polynesian peoples throughout history in nothing more that hollowed out logs. Is said canoe MORE "seaworthy" than, say, a 34' Marine Trader or less "seaworthy" than a Nordhavn 46?


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Old 06-25-2015, 03:18 PM   #104
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I repeat:

"Of the four areas for lounging (the saloon, aft cockpit, pilothouse and fly bridge, three of the four areas have spectacular views of the surrounding area. In fact, two of those three have 360 degree views while the aft cockpit has a wonderful 180 degree view."

Cockpit with U-shaped settee = lounging
Fly bridge with settee and comfy helm chair = lounging
Pilothouse with very large settee = lounging

Now if that is what you consider living in a cave then your opinion is certainly on the opposite end of the spectrum than mine. To me living in a cave is dark and the Duck is far from dark with its large pilothouse windows on all four sides along with a very large U-shaped settee and then there's the cockpit with a large U-shaped settee with 180 degree views. If these aren't lounging areas then I guess I just don't know what a lounging area is. Oh, and let's not forget the fly bridge seating with it's 360 degree views. Again, if these all aren't great lounging areas for happy hour or sitting down and reading a good book then I don't know what is.
He's got an opinion you don't share. I'm somewhere in between the two of you as far as Diesel Duck. Now maybe his is based on one boat, perhaps smaller than yours. Sometimes we get feelings on a boat that may not even be rational. I don't necessarily choose the most popular boat or biggest seller. For instance while you'd choose Diesel Duck over Nordhavn, I'd choose Fleming over Nordhavn. Doesn't make Nordhavn a bad boat. The only DD I've been on, I did feel the sailboat heritage. Still it was a very nice boat. Is the 492 like the 462? They also change and do modifications so often that I would figure whatever aspect one wanted changed could be done so. I don't think anyone is criticizing your boat and his comments can't specifically be applied to it if he's not seen it. Sometimes a small difference can be huge. I love the foredeck on the 55 shown on the site and the entire outside area. The sacrifice I see, however, is in the salon. Sometimes the lounging must be inside.
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Old 06-25-2015, 03:37 PM   #105
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I don't think we've decided anything. Defining Seaworthy might help a bit. Is it cruising along the coast or crossing to the Bahamas or to the Caribbean Islands or Transatlantic or Transpacific.

I think we indicated many are to a point but not to the extreme. In the Under 60' requirements, personally I'd rank Fleming at the top, then KK and Nordhavn, then the Tugs and Ducks, then Selene, Grand Banks and such after that.
Curious why you rate Fleming above KK and Nordhavn for seaworthiness? I understand (from a later post) that you prefer the Fleming. But that's not the same thing.

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Old 06-25-2015, 03:58 PM   #106
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You all make some very good points.
I thought about my previous response AFTER.I posted it.

That's an extrovert for you.

And I realized what I was also trying to articulate was what many of you have just said, I liked the Krogen better because it seemed simpler to me.

I believe the complexity of the Nordhavn and its many redundant systems is as much a part of their market as anything else.

The people who buy them like that.

Therefore they make them like that.

I think KK's philosophy is of a simpler boat.

I also knew I needed a boat I could maintain myself and parts that were obtainable must places and at reasonable costs.

Thus no Turbos or hydraulic stabilizers.
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Old 06-25-2015, 04:05 PM   #107
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Curious why you rate Fleming above KK and Nordhavn for seaworthiness? I understand (from a later post) that you prefer the Fleming. But that's not the same thing.

Richard
I don't rate it over by a huge amount and it may be unfair in doing so. To me one of the factors of seaworthiness goes beyond the boat hull and structure but extends to equipment being as nearly trouble free as possible. I think that's an area Fleming wins on delivery. If we're talking sea but not ocean crossing or something, i think that ability to go faster can be a part of seaworthiness. It won't help you crossing the Atlantic, but crossing to the Bahamas it may. Now, I personally think Fleming is just a great boat and that may influence my view and I probably hear of more Nordhavn issues partially because there are so many more boats out there. Fleming is always delivered with twins, KK sometimes. One place I'd downrate Fleming is standard fuel capacity and that is certainly an important element of being seaworthy.

Now, aside from the seaworthiness, the main reason we'd select Fleming if buying is simple-more speed.

As to someone seeking a seaworthy boat, all three builders do build them. Fleming only builds 55' and up and I do think size is an advantage. I definitely think for instance that a Nordhavn 40 would be a poor choice for anyone planning to cross the Atlantic.

So no slight intended of KK and Nordhavn.
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Old 06-25-2015, 07:54 PM   #108
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I really like the Fleming but the lack of salon space and overall space for a 55 is not enough IMO. The side decks are nice though when you use them to come into a marina or med mooring.

As to diesel ducks, they need some quality control before I'd seriously look at one of them. There was a thread awhile back that showed some shoddy building techniques. I agree with Hollywood, it's like being in a sailboat. Which (I'm) not a fan of.
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Old 06-25-2015, 08:10 PM   #109
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I believe the owners original boat, Zopilote, was lost off of Alaska/PNW and his replacement was named "Spirit of". Owner is Bruce Kesseler, the television director, among other things.
Bruce was the first American to circumnavigate in a US built power vessel. As if that and famous 70s and 80s TV director isn't enough he also raced Le Mans, was the last person to see James Dean (they were racing each other to a restaurant 30 miles away, Dean never made it) and married actress Joan Freeman who stared with Elvis and others.
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Old 06-25-2015, 08:10 PM   #110
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I really like the Fleming but the lack of salon space and overall space for a 55 is not enough IMO. The side decks are nice though when you use them to come into a marina or med mooring.
The 65 is really their top model and now the new 58 is very nice. I don't disagree with you on the 55.
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Old 06-25-2015, 08:24 PM   #111
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I like the low CG and hull efficiency of my DeFever 48. With her original 1000 gallons of fuel and 2 gph at 6.8knots, range is not an issue. With fish installed I wouldn't hesitate for a second to cross and share a pint with Richard.

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Old 06-25-2015, 08:24 PM   #112
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The 65 is really their top model and now the new 58 is very nice. I don't disagree with you on the 55.

We saw a 65 in Eleuthera. It looked like a BIG 65, didn't go inside but gazed at its lines. Beautiful boats.
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Old 06-25-2015, 09:04 PM   #113
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BTW, Nordhavn's aren't complicated if you know the boat. When we first got ours it seemed complicated but after digging through every nook and crevice and reading the manual I know where everything is, what it does, if it breaks or some thing happens what appropriate measures to take. It's not a simple boat, but it's not complicated. The key is your awareness.
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Old 06-25-2015, 09:58 PM   #114
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All types of rickety small boats have crossed oceans so its no surprise that NH and KK any other power boat with the fuel capacity can do so. As to what happens if you get caught in a tropical depression most of these ocean hoppers might have a hard time surviving and if they do the crew is going to be major beat up. These boats have too much wind age and big flat surfaces for waves to smash into. Many have relatively high CG. I have been out in 60 footers and would never volunteer to go out in such seas with a NH-KK or anything like it. If I had to go its a 600+ ft power boat or a low CG sail boat. The answer to the best ocean hopping power boat is one that gets good weather and small waves form a comfortable angle.
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Old 06-25-2015, 10:29 PM   #115
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All types of rickety small boats have crossed oceans so its no surprise that NH and KK any other power boat with the fuel capacity can do so. As to what happens if you get caught in a tropical depression most of these ocean hoppers might have a hard time surviving and if they do the crew is going to be major beat up. These boats have too much wind age and big flat surfaces for waves to smash into. Many have relatively high CG. I have been out in 60 footers and would never volunteer to go out in such seas with a NH-KK or anything like it. If I had to go its a 600+ ft power boat or a low CG sail boat. The answer to the best ocean hopping power boat is one that gets good weather and small waves form a comfortable angle.
With either a Nordhavn 60'-64' or a Fleming 65' or a KK 58', I think you have enough boat to handle pretty horrible conditions. The question at that point becomes is the crew up to handling what the boat can. These are all quite well built for 60 footers and designed for adverse conditions.

Now, would I personally cross the Atlantic on either? No, but I'm exceptionally conservative when it comes to something like this. So neither of these would be my choices to cross in. I wouldn't consider it in less than approximately 80' in one of those types and for most other boats it would have to be 100'+. But that's personal. I don't question the capabilities of either of those brands of boats.

Now if the OP is just looking mostly at island hopping and staying somewhat close to land, but wants to be able to handle rough conditions, then I think either of those boats would do it well.
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Old 06-25-2015, 10:49 PM   #116
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Wonder how the Nordhavns are doing now.


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Old 06-25-2015, 10:55 PM   #117
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Wonder how the Nordhavns are doing now.
Wifey B: Probably not having as much fun as the Coot, although if memory serves me right he does like to occasionally desert his Coot and hook up with big fancy boats known as cruise ships.
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:07 PM   #118
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There's a reason most blue water boats avoid large open spaces.
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:38 PM   #119
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There's a reason most blue water boats avoid large open spaces.
Been there done that. That is why I say that dinky little NH and KK types are going to get there ass kicked in really bad conditions and if boats survive the crew is going to be really beat up. The adventure completely depends on relatively benign weather. Fortunately weather forecasting is pretty good but an eight or nine knot boat is not too good at out running or avoiding a big depression. There is a certain thrill and bragging rights to taking risks ergo mountain climbing and sky diving and to some extent ocean hopping.
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:42 PM   #120
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The "Elling" ?. Beautiful boat but I thought we were discussing serious blue water traveling and not "Ocean Ready or Ocean Capable". There is a difference between running out a few miles for the day and crossing oceans. The specs. on the Elling allow a 400 gallon fuel tank with a burn rate of about 1 gallon per 2 mile on their smaller engine and a water tankage of 230 gallons. I think I will stick with my steel hulled Romsdal and 3000 gallons of fuel and a thousand gallons of water storage.
dan
Well I'll grant you the limited fuel tank on the Elling but as for the rest, by all accounts these things go well into the "seaworthy" category. A full skeg, Kevlar in the hull, up to a 475 hp motor, and euro ocean ratings that claim it can handle 25ft seas. They also claim 1.5 to 2 gph at 7.5kts cruise. In 2008 they took 3 of them across the Atlantic in 16 days and all they had to do is add some additional fuel capacity. I don't mean to sound like their rep, honestly we're very early in our boat-buying research. But I have to say I'd feel pretty safe in this thing off shore.
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