Bermuda Crossing on a GB42

[Benthic2]

Can you ?? Yes.....some guy crossed the Atlantic in a 5 foot boat....people have taken jet ski's to the Bahamas.... Should you is a very different question. If you are just looking to do a 5 or 6 day non stop cruise.....why not stay coastal....and cruise the Atlantic East Coast. If all goes well...you get to say you did a 1000 mile, non stop cruise. If all doesn't go well....you are only 20 miles off shore and have a lot more options.

I'd suggest you sign up as a crew member on a boat headed to Bermuda few times.....get a feel for the trip.....then you can decide for yourself if you, your crew, and your boat are up for the journey. Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

[BandB]

Yr 1 of planned Bermuda trip. Cancelled due to hurricane approaching the area and then seas rough for weeks after.

Yr 2. Had perfect window of seas, but as we approached they were worsening rapidly. Would have been doable still in the GB but extremely rough the last hours. Upon leaving, had we been wanting to return to the NC coast we could not have left Bermuda. In fact, we couldn't even take the most direct route home to Fort Lauderdale. Instead we kept heading south into the Bahamas and cut through the Bahamas to come home. You wouldn't have that luxury and at that time, you wouldn't have been able to cut back across to the NC coast for three weeks or so. Now, that was fall so not what you'd likely encounter earlier in the year.

I'd suggest, starting yesterday, you check daily the weather and sea maps to and from the Bahamas. Make notes of when you would think you had an adequate window, then continue to see what you would have encountered. Windy is an excellent site for doing so. Also, note the wind speeds and directions.

As an example, looking today, you'd see no possible crossing in either direction for the next ten days. Interestingly enough, south of Bermuda you'd see much like what we had. Rough conditions right around Bermuda but yesterday you had 4' at 5 seconds which I doubt you'd want to do in the GB. However, less than 100 miles south you would have reached a trough that is more swell than wind waves and a very comfortable 3' with long periods of 5, 6 and 7 seconds. If you just look at the wind waves you'll see 1' at 2 seconds. That's the type trough we took to the Bahamas. You don't have the range to do that without likely far more additional fuel than you can comfortably and safely carry. I point this example out as it's a normal condition for Bermuda. Often if you look from Bermuda in each of the four directions you'll see very different conditions in each. Build your own little history of conditions to and from and monitor heavily this summer. Unfortunately, tomorrow you'd see 47 mph winds from the west between Bermuda and NC. Also, you might track currents for range as what I've seen have been prevailing currents from the east at up to 0.5 knots. Doesn't sound like much but when you're talking 6 to 7 knots, it decreases your range by 7 to 8%, so 40-50 nm.

Here's something like what I believe you'll find but I haven't done it to the extent I suggest you do. If you're only comfortable in 3' seas or in 4' with long periods and for a brief time, you'll find very few windows to take you to and from the east coast and Bermuda. If you're ok in 4-6' seas as long as the period is greater than the wave height and in 15-20 mph winds, then you'll greatly increase the available windows. Only you know what you're comfortable with in your boat and for what length of time. Separate too your feelings of safe vs. comfortable.

 

[SailorGreg]

Hi,
as one of so-called nay sayers, let me expand on a few points. As far as your experience goes, not such a big issue. You will have crew and can fill in your voids with experienced crew. My issue is the combination of that boat and the conditions you might run into.
Boats like Krogens and Nordhavns, purpose built for open ocean passages have a few critical design elements that I expect the GB 42 lacks. The K and the N have lower CG's (both carry about 10% of their GW in ballast), they have lower initial stability but higher ultimate stability. And they have significant reserve buoyancy. My Krogen has watertight bulkheads fore and aft, and the N's are similarly built.
So why might you care about all this, since you are going to choose a benign weather window in order to never test the roll limits of your ship?
That brings me back to weather. Yes, odds are you will have nice weather and calm seas, just as forecast. But anyone who has spent time in the North Atlantic has seen five day forecasts go wrong.
A couple of years ago we ran from Florida to Newport. When we left the forecast for day 4, off the Jersey coast, was for 15-20 knots out of the east. What we got was 25 knots out of the North. We chose not to bail out at Cape May, but had to put up with 6'-8' seas of short period on the nose for about eight hours. Uncomfortable in a Krogen, worse on a GB, but not life threatening.
Now lets transpose that same missed forecast to your trip coming back from Bermuda. You are day 3 or 4 and approaching the GS. There is a 6' swell from the south and a forecast for 20 knots out of the east. This would make for pretty sloppy conditions in the GS, but still survivable. Now lets interject the same missed forecast we had off NJ. 25 knots out of the North. The combination of the swell from the south, the 3 knot current and the wind driven wave will set up 10' standing waves in the stream. And now that CG and roll stability and reserve buoyancy that the GB does not have becomes life threatening. Maybe you can turn around, maybe you cant.
Although either a K or a N could handle these conditions, most never will see such. But we own boats like this because where we travel, stuff happens. Including missed forecasts. The longer we are out, and the further from land we get, the more uncertainty enters the risk equation. 600 miles out, in the North Atlantic, with the GS between you and the mainland, there is plenty of uncertainty. Its because of that uncertainty that we own boats that one might say are over designed for the conditions they normally sail in.
Yes the USCG saves lives at sea every day. And they dont stop to ask if you or your boat belongs out there. And every time any of us goes offshore we take a calculated risk. But responsible seamen do not include possible recovery by the USCG or another boat as part of our risk mitigation strategy. Mainly because it endangers their lives as well as ours.
There is lots you can do to make your GB better able to meet the challenge, but it will never be an offshore capable boat.

 

[Left Coaster]

Jessiediver49: As you've noticed, you haven't received responses from people who've actually done a Bermuda crossing on a GB42. Why aren't you getting first hand responses from people who've done it? Perhaps that's indicative of something. Can a GB42 complete it? With a properly prepared vessel, crew, cooperating weather, etc, yes, but I would suggest that to do so, things have to go right and therein lies the potential problem. So it comes down to risk tolerance.



One question: Why Bermuda?

 

[Dan_can]

Jessiediver49: As you've noticed, you haven't received responses from people who've actually done a Bermuda crossing on a GB42. Why aren't you getting first hand responses from people who've done it? Perhaps that's indicative of something. Can a GB42 complete it? With a properly prepared vessel, crew, cooperating weather, etc, yes, but I would suggest that to do so, things have to go right and therein lies the potential problem. So it comes down to risk tolerance.



One question: Why Bermuda?

The OP already responded to this question. See post 40.
But then, why, why some folks do the loop? Why the Caribbean? Why navigating in a boat? Why not flying?
Is “because I want to” not good enough? Because the adventure? Because it is there?
I honestly was about to not comment, but then why don’t I keep my mouth shut? LOL

 

[Arc]

Jesse: I would bet good money , if you set your 42’ on autopilot with no one on it, it would arrive in Bermuda with no issues. Machines do what they are designed to do. People are often the variable.

 

[mvweebles]

Hi,
as one of so-called nay sayers, let me expand on a few points. As far as your experience goes, not such a big issue. You will have crew and can fill in your voids with experienced crew. My issue is the combination of that boat and the conditions you might run into.
Boats like Krogens and Nordhavns, purpose built for open ocean passages have a few critical design elements that I expect the GB 42 lacks. The K and the N have lower CG's (both carry about 10% of their GW in ballast), they have lower initial stability but higher ultimate stability. And they have significant reserve buoyancy. My Krogen has watertight bulkheads fore and aft, and the N's are similarly built.
So why might you care about all this, since you are going to choose a benign weather window in order to never test the roll limits of your ship?
That brings me back to weather. Yes, odds are you will have nice weather and calm seas, just as forecast. But anyone who has spent time in the North Atlantic has seen five day forecasts go wrong.
A couple of years ago we ran from Florida to Newport. When we left the forecast for day 4, off the Jersey coast, was for 15-20 knots out of the east. What we got was 25 knots out of the North. We chose not to bail out at Cape May, but had to put up with 6'-8' seas of short period on the nose for about eight hours. Uncomfortable in a Krogen, worse on a GB, but not life threatening.
Now lets transpose that same missed forecast to your trip coming back from Bermuda. You are day 3 or 4 and approaching the GS. There is a 6' swell from the south and a forecast for 20 knots out of the east. This would make for pretty sloppy conditions in the GS, but still survivable. Now lets interject the same missed forecast we had off NJ. 25 knots out of the North. The combination of the swell from the south, the 3 knot current and the wind driven wave will set up 10' standing waves in the stream. And now that CG and roll stability and reserve buoyancy that the GB does not have becomes life threatening. Maybe you can turn around, maybe you cant.
Although either a K or a N could handle these conditions, most never will see such. But we own boats like this because where we travel, stuff happens. Including missed forecasts. The longer we are out, and the further from land we get, the more uncertainty enters the risk equation. 600 miles out, in the North Atlantic, with the GS between you and the mainland, there is plenty of uncertainty. Its because of that uncertainty that we own boats that one might say are over designed for the conditions they normally sail in.
Yes the USCG saves lives at sea every day. And they dont stop to ask if you or your boat belongs out there. And every time any of us goes offshore we take a calculated risk. But responsible seamen do not include possible recovery by the USCG or another boat as part of our risk mitigation strategy. Mainly because it endangers their lives as well as ours.
There is lots you can do to make your GB better able to meet the challenge, but it will never be an offshore capable boat.

KK 42 carries about 6% ballast. N43 around 8% (PAE is a bit vague saying they adjust at half load). For comparison, my Willard 36 carries well over 20%.

Any citations on the CoG claim? Raised pilot house, stand up ER (Nordhavn), and sedan salon all add to above waterline structure on the KK and Nordhavn vs the very low aft trunk cabin on the GB classic. Add a flybridge on the N43 and, well, hard to believe the A/B and CoG are stellar (which is why few would be caught dead on one without stabilization).

 

[SailorGreg]

You are correct. I wrote that a little too quickly and was off verifying the numbers when pulled off the boat, etc. A bit careless of me.
My K52 is about 8% ballast. I dont know your Willard 30, but I believe it is full displacement (motor sailor?) and so I would expect significant ballast.
What I meant to suggest to the OP was to do some research on his boat to see what the design criteria were, regarding roll stability, etc. As a semi-displacement boat, the GB42, I dont expect it will fare well as compared to full displacement ocean rated boats (like KK, N and others) And adding fuel in bladders, etc, will make the number worse.
Voyaging under Power would be a good book for the OP.

 

[Donsan]

No, my current Progressive insurance will not cover such a trip.....BTW - my wife would not go on such a crossing. ... I'd need at least 2 additional crew and preferably 3 for easier helm shifts.

Say the OP decides to make the trip and does so without insurance. Assume he takes on additional crew and either due to health issues or falling overboard at night, one of the crew is lost. Under Maritime Law, could the OP be held personally liable for wrongful death and/or gross negligence for attempting a passage his boat was not designed for?

 

[Boat]

When you stop doing things for fun you might as well be dead.

- Ernest Hemingway

 

[psneeld]

Exactly WHO says it was not designed for it? That might be a tough one to prove as there are all sorts of small boat trips to make the point debatable .

Now whether he was grossly negligent in operating or planning...different story but that affects all of us every time we get underway with or without insurance.

 

[sunchaser]

As a semi-displacement boat, the GB42, I dont expect it will fare well as compared to full displacement ocean rated boats (like KK, N and others) And adding fuel in bladders, etc, will make the number worse. .

The normal way to use fuel in bladders or drums is to deplete that fuel early on in the journey. Hard to see that presents a stability issue unless one ventures into bad weather during the early stages of the trip. A cockpit is the preferred short term storage place, as the vessel in the video utilized.

Greg, are you aware of any KK 52s that have been global travelers? Does yours have a single or twins?

 

[jimdavi]

Out of my experience area, but why not head down the coast then cut across further south? I realize it’s longer but much easier I think.

 

[BandB]

Out of my experience area, but why not head down the coast then cut across further south? I realize it’s longer but much easier I think.

It's not necessarily easier and increases the length of weather window needed. Plus he doesn't have the range to do further South. Our original plan was to go from Beaufort or Morehead City. I'd prefer that to Hatteras.

 

[menzies]

Say the OP decides to make the trip and does so without insurance. Assume he takes on additional crew and either due to health issues or falling overboard at night, one of the crew is lost. Under Maritime Law, could the OP be held personally liable for wrongful death and/or gross negligence for attempting a passage his boat was not designed for?

I believe he is saying his current insurance does not cover it - but that he would be insured for it before he left.

 

[mvweebles]

My boat is a Willard 36 sedan trawler designed by Wm Garden in the 1950s. She was originally spec'd at about 25,000 lbs with 6000 lbs ballast. Almost 25%. In full cruising trim, she weights in closer to 30,000 lbs which is why I say "over 20% ballast." She is not a sailboat nor a motor sailer, but a classic trawler that Beebe extolled. I like her motion and only run (hydraulic) stabilizers when needed, less than 20% of the time.

My point is only that when I look at the GB42, I see a relatively low profile boat with a decent amount of form stability with a mostly plumb bow intended to go through waves vs over them. Wet ride to be sure. But she's a well built boat that's water tight and fairly low due to classic trunk cabin.

When I look at the N43, especially with a flybridge, (closest in dimension), I see a really tall boat that will need stabilization virtually 100% of the time. I see a boat that is incredibly stout and would likely survive a knockdown, but I also see one that might be more likely to see knockdown conditions due to sales-hype and that many buyers of smaller nordhavns are relatively inexperienced.

The GB42 is a well built and strong boat. There are no conditions that I could survive and it couldn't (save fire or stove-in hull). She's a good boat. With careful planning, decent prep, and adequate skills, she's okay for Bermuda.

 

[T210DRVR]

I don’t know much about trawlers and that’s why i’m here. I just did the math and I figure roughly 85 hours cruising. That’s a long ways rolling around on the ocean. I suppose that the trip is theoretically possible from a fuel perspective and I would expect that with good weather there is no reason the vessel isn’t capable. You are not going to outrun any weather that may blow up unexpectedly. A Blue Water sailboat with a displacement hull and big keel will no doubt suffer a big blow better than most trawlers.

I can see the attraction of the trip but at mid point in the trip you are a long ways from any help. It seems like there are many other destinations, like Cozumel, that would involve a long passage but you would be closer to help with good planning. I’d chose Cozumel, but maybe age has diminished my risk tolerance.

 

[oscar]

To the OP..... if you have to come here to ask the question then you don't know what you don't know and the answer is "NO". Some people here could do it, most couldn't.

There are skills that may be called on that would have to be rooted in decades of real experience. Boat handling, weather evaluation, fuel management, health management, McGyvering the inevitable mechanical issues.... and before ALL that the planning of what to bring, and what not to bring to make all that happen.

Would you make it as is? Probably. If that's good enough go for it.

 

[BandB]

To the OP..... if you have to come here to ask the question then you don't know what you don't know and the answer is "NO". Some people here could do it, most couldn't.

There are skills that may be called on that would have to be rooted in decades of real experience. Boat handling, weather evaluation, fuel management, health management, McGyvering the inevitable mechanical issues.... and before ALL that the planning of what to bring, and what not to bring to make all that happen.

Would you make it as is? Probably. If that's good enough go for it.

Wifey B: To your "some people here could do it, most couldn't." Skills of the crew he engages are crucial. I'd want someone with crossing experience on my first time. We're both 500 Ton Masters but we do not have the mechanical skills to take a 90 or 100 hour cruise across ocean. We can do plenty of basics. I know how to check things and change Racors and things like that, but neither of us could handle a major problem. You put the two of us on a similar boat to his with a good engineer or highly skilled mechanical person and we could safely do it. We're highly skilled in some things but need supplementation in others.

Now there are still challenges due to speed and range and weather systems, but studying the systems for a while on the route one can get comfortable as hubby suggested. Those can be worked out and you might sit waiting to go for two months and once there you may wait three months to come back but can be done.

Key is the crew you take with you.

 

[menzies]

Wifey B: To your "some people here could do it, most couldn't." Skills of the crew he engages are crucial. I'd want someone with crossing experience on my first time. We're both 500 Ton Masters but we do not have the mechanical skills to take a 90 or 100 hour cruise across ocean. We can do plenty of basics. I know how to check things and change Racors and things like that, but neither of us could handle a major problem. You put the two of us on a similar boat to his with a good engineer or highly skilled mechanical person and we could safely do it. We're highly skilled in some things but need supplementation in others.

Now there are still challenges due to speed and range and weather systems, but studying the systems for a while on the route one can get comfortable as hubby suggested. Those can be worked out and you might sit waiting to go for two months and once there you may wait three months to come back but can be done.

Key is the crew you take with you.

Hmmm, I have a brother who is ex Royal Navy Nuclear Sub Chief PO, engineering. Wants to do the trip with me.

Think I am good to go with him McGuvering?

[Just have to persuade him to do the return!]

 

[PacificBlue]

Our dock neighbor retired to Lopez Island in the San Juans and delivered his GB 42 from Dana Point solo. He was a seasoned boater and had many miles on his GB in Mexico and the Sea of Cortez.

On the delivery trip up north he got caught in some nasty seas off of Crescent City, CA, slugged it through and finally made it to a his dock on Lopez Island, where he promptly tied the boat up and did not touch it for some time. It was a rough delivery for sure.

My take away was that the GB could still take more than any owner could in some big time rough seas and still get you safely to port. Given a proper boat, The human factor is the bigger limitation, are you up to snuff for the task.......

 

[BruceK]

Hmmm, I have a brother who is ex Royal Navy Nuclear Sub Chief PO, engineering. Wants to do the trip with me.

Think I am good to go with him McGuvering?

[Just have to persuade him to do the return!]

Should be a huge asset if you plan doing some of it underwater.
I don`t understand people criticizing the OP for asking the question. Surely a fair and sensible question to raise, if only to bounce it off others for helpful ideas whether precisely on point or tangential. I expect he`s had considerable help for making the voyage, whether it happens or not. And I hope it goes well.

 

[menzies]

Should be a huge asset if you plan doing some of it underwater.

Well I fibbed a bit - he wants to do the whole pond crossing. The part about me wanting him to also do the return holds true!

 

[psneeld]

Two great points brought up.....

1. Big boat and little boat experience don't necessari,y go hand and hand.

2. Sometimes after the first leg, there is no way the crew will do the se ond....for a variety of reasons...

 

[JESSEDIVER49]

At this point let me thank all for your inputs. Out of 41 who weighed-in once or more, 7 posted a "doable" or positive response for running a 42GB from NC to BDA. Five posted clearly not such a good idea. The rest chimed in with recommendations, etc. The "why" came up several times. I think I addressed it but I'll add that Bermuda (BDA) has been a special place for me since I was a teenager. There's no other place like it. Yes, it's a terribly expensive place but for me, worth it. Everything including diesel fuel is double US cost - one exception, imported beer at a Piggly Wiggly is same or slightly less than US prices. Going there in my boat would have personal meaning and satisfaction for me at this point in my life. However I understand risk taking, and that there's vetted & calculated risks with maximized mitigations on one end of the spectrum and seat-of-the-pants risk taking on the other. When I do something that has serious risk elements, I plan way ahead and aspire for a fully calculated and as much as possible mitigation process before beginning the activity. I've been a scuba diver for 50 years and have made several dives with above average risk aspects. eg. When I turned 50 I dived the Andrea Doria; when I turned 60 I got full-caved certified to do a photo shoot in a Texas cave at depths ~ 170 ft deep in an overhead environment. All planning in advance and risks identified with as many mitigations made as possible. My boating and cruising has been no different. Biggest risk taken so far was 2018 crossing the Gulf of Mexico, 420 nm. Much planning went into that one. I continued that one with 1600 miles up the ICW to Cape May with much planning and risk planning to avoid running aground anywhere. Successful. All my Texas offshore dive trips (115 nm out) had float plans. As Gordon J stated "each has our tolerance for adventure" and I'll add taking measured risks. I've started a list of things that need to be done or developed for a Bermuda crossing and a number of items came out of your posts. Weather of course is a huge consideration and I am not nearly done with that one. No only for a weather window outgoing but considering the possibility of having a weather window problem on return. (My GB42 runs really nice in 3-4s and pretty well in 4-6s. If I saw a 50% chance or more likelihood of worse than that, I probably wouldn't leave port). On crew, my plan has to consider also what if crossing is rough and one or more crew members bail on me in Bermuda. Then what? Hire a Bermudian, fly in crew or a Captain, or ... sell the boat in BDA? Another area where I need to do more homework is the Gulf Stream effects off NC. One person weighed in about "crossing" the Gulf Stream but unlike a Miami to Bahamas run where you do "cross" the GS confined between the Bahamas and mainland that's running 4-5 knts north, the Gulf Stream at NC turns east toward Bermuda and feathers out more. I'll have some affect helping me on the way to BDA but will be against me on return. I don't think it's all that much, maybe 1-2 kts max but need to vet with people who have actually made the crossing. It's also an important consideration for sharpening fuel determination on return. BTW - I now remember the closest departure point to BDA from US mainland is Oregon Inlet NC, not Cape Hatteras. 575 nm, not 620. I have not yet ruled out getting a blue water trawler like a KK for reducing some risk but if I went that route I'd postpone the BDA crossing for at least one more year to do a good shakedown on the new boat. I just turned 70 and continue to have a zest for adventure but I'm enjoying life too much to short change a proper risk assessment for any activity with serious risks whether it be a crossing to BDA or other. I think we can all agree that improper planning or seat-of-the-pants decision making for activities that can have life-threatening risks often don't turn out so well. Cheers to well-planned adventures!

 

[mvweebles]

Jesse - your long post got me thinking about the Gulf Stream - Windy.com has a decent animated graphic of the stream, including counter-currents. I have no idea how accurate this is, but assuming it's relatively accurate:

1. Gulf Stream is similar as it is off Florida, 1.5-2.0 kts for first 75-miles or so. There are some areas of stronger currents.
2. There are counter-currents that you can potentially play, though last 75-100 miles into BDA would have a 0.5 kt current against. PredictWind requires their top-tier package for currents ($500/yr vs $250) which would be helpful for this trip. FastSeas.com (around $60/yr) also has a decent current's section with trip routing, but does not have wave/swells, so is limited.
3. Fuel - you would need to be really careful about fuel - I've plotted a quick guess of track-line to play the currents. Mind you, this is just today and will change daily. But you get the idea - fastest/shortest route may not be a rhumbline to BDA.
4. Spares. I can't remember which Nigel Calder book has a really good methodology on what Spares to carry but made a lot of sense to me. Its been years, but basically how to triage into a few different categories of criticality to decide what to have onboard. I need to find that myself - if anyone has the cross reference, I'd appreciate the citation. "Ocean Voyager" magazine often has interviews with longterm cruisers and almost always ask how they approach spares. Despite sail-centric focus of magazine, the interviews are good reading and good prep.

Best to you - been an interesting topic while I sit twiddling my thumbs waiting for my refit to finish in Ensenada

Peter

 

[Donsan]

been an interesting topic while I sit twiddling my thumbs waiting for my refit to finish in Ensenada

Peter - What are your planned destinations after your refit?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 49. Since it seems weather is the major determining factor in your potential voyage, I wonder if it would be worth the investment to subscribe to a professional weather forecasting service or maybe a one-shot deal? I think there are independent forecasters although for the life of me, I can't remember who.

The rest of the preparations (spares, life saving gear, EPIRB's, extra fuel, if necessary etc.) seem to be relatively straightforward.

 

[Fletcher500]

Jesse, I don’t have anything to add that would help you, but it’s been interesting to follow along this thread. It appears to me that you have the Chops, background, and experience to pull it off. Best.

 

[Larry M]

Greetings,
Mr. 49. Since it seems weather is the major determining factor in your potential voyage, I wonder if it would be worth the investment to subscribe to a professional weather forecasting service or maybe a one-shot deal? I think there are independent forecasters although for the life of me, I can't remember who...

We’ve subscribe to Chris Parker for our Bahama weather and have used him all through the Caribbean and imho he’s good. Is also know people that have used him for weather routing across the Atlantic. I think he’d be worth talking to.

https://www.mwxc.com/

Your trip is very doable based on the time of the year. When we did our circumnavigation, time of year and local weather knowledge kept us out major trouble (for the most part).