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Old 04-16-2017, 01:33 PM   #21
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There are many boats that can cross oceans.

I know that my boat can cross oceans. If I don't end up crossing one then it'll be all about me and not the boat.
I think the "me" part in some minds implies skill and while that is important, there is also the "me" part in comfort. There are many boats that I know I could cross an ocean in, but I would not. I look back to the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally in 2004. Many of those aboard had a miserable time. There was a tremendous difference in the boats and a lot of it was size.

If I could have crossed on any of the boats involved, it would have been the 90' Monk McQueen. I would have been ok on the Nordhavn 62's and 57's and the Seaton 55. However, based on that rally, there is no way I'd cross on the smaller Nordhavn's. There was a 40', five 46's, and one 47'. They all made it but some with a lot of assistance. A lot of their passengers did not enjoy it. Now, I think part of that was expectations as I don't think many were at all mentally prepared for the conditions.

For some, just making it across is enough. I've followed the stories of many who have crossed. Richard has crossed both ways in a KK 42, but that doesn't mean I'd choose to do so in the same boat. It has nothing to do with whether I could or not. There are many things in life I'm probably capable of, but don't choose to do.

I'm not sure where my cut off is. I intend to cross in larger when I cross but I'd be ok in many in the 60'-80' range. Unlike Ted, I don't insist on steel, nor do I need 6000 nm range. I'm fine with 3000 nm range at intended speed and knowing I can slow and increase it to 4000 nm or more. I'm less comfortable with a 2000 nm range at 8 knots, knowing I must slow to 6 knots to have 3000 nm range.

Some crossing single handed and some cross with a crew of two. I'd never cross with less than four and at least one would have far greater technical and mechanical knowledge and skill than I do. I have no concern with my skills at the helm, but I'm not adequate in the mechanical area for such an endeavor. I do believe though in being able to get adequate sleep and in just having enough time to relax and enjoy.

Part of it comes back to the question of why cross an ocean. For some it's a competitive type thing, to challenge themselves. For me, it's for the pleasure of seeing things from a different perspective, of seeing the beauty of the ocean and experiencing being days from land. It is something I do want to experience at least once in my life, but I want to experience it with some degree of comfort and safety. I also want to experience it with others, not in total solitude, to share it with my wife and family/friends. Some want to do it to prove they can. I never feel the need to prove anything to myself or others, I simply want the experience. I'm competitive on a tennis court, on a basketball court, or at a card table, but not on the water.

As to your 54' KK, I don't know it well enough to know if I'd cross in one, but knowing what I do know, I'd consider it. There is no sub 50' boat, I'd consider it on.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:54 PM   #22
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Charles Lindbergh flew the Spirit of St. Louis (single person, singe engine airplane) across the Ocean, once. People take 15' center consoles with one outboard, to the Bahamas from Florida. There are a lot of things you can do once, and the law of probability says your likely to get away with it, once. If you're buying a boat specifically to cross oceans, the assumption is you plan to do it more than once. That's where the law of probability says it becomes more likely something will go wrong. So, I don't want one that can, I want one that was designed to.

Ted
Of course I am not advocating anything like that. What we're talking about lies somewhere between Lindbergh and driving to work.

I also agree that I want a boat designed to cross oceans. The Nordhavn 46 is one, as are all of their boats except their small "coastal pilot" range. The same is true for most of the Krogens, the Diesel Ducks, Berings, and many others.

You mention probability. Although an individual may only cross an ocean once or twice, in aggregate there have been many crossings on these types of boat. I don't know the stats, but I personally know multiple people who have lost their boats coastal sailing - including one who had crossed an ocean before hitting a reef cruising islands in the south Pacific. In many ways coastal cruising is more dangerous than open ocean.

Here in the SF Bay Area I see plenty of people with boats capable of going out of the Golden Gate who choose not to. I think many boaters are more limited by their own comfort levels than the capability of the boat. There's nothing at all wrong with that. I'm just pointing it out since there is so much focus on equipment on the internet it's easy to fall into the trap of "if only I had..." as a reason for not taking your boat somewhere.

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Old 04-16-2017, 02:15 PM   #23
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I think both of you guys have valid points. I also believe very much in what Richard has said us that most people are limited by thier own comfort level....

Myself...my comfort level with all kinds of stuff is usually far beyond what an average person would accept...and that's directly attributable to my own path in life...

Many a 30ft sailboat has crossed oceans but that doesn't mean it's comfortable for me and my wife..in fact some sage advice I received here within about a week on the board....Get on as many boats as you can before buying.

We found for our needs that ANYTHING less than 60 feet would not work for liveaboard ocean crossing...and although they are super capable and proven...the Nordhavns, KK's, and DD boats were either too cramped per foot of length or to old timey inside..


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Old 04-16-2017, 02:17 PM   #24
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I'd go for an arctic fisheries inspection vessel, if given the fuel budget. They're pretty much made for the task, and are fantastically comfortable boats compared to some of the other serious machinery suited for such an endeavor. For your $100-200k you get:

100' length.
6-10 separate cabins.
Ice classed hull.
Medium speed main.
Triple redundancy of all mission critical systems.
Enormous fuel range.
All the comforts needed to keep a crew happy for six months of loitering.
The cozy feeling of a proper ship that's just not going to go belly up on you.
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Old 04-16-2017, 03:00 PM   #25
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I think the "me" part in some minds implies skill and while that is important, there is also the "me" part in comfort...
I agree with everything you wrote in your post. I think we're on the same page. So when the OP asked about the bare minimum the answer depends on his comfort levels to a large extent. Though there are probably some minimums that the vast majority of us would agree with.

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Old 04-16-2017, 03:42 PM   #26
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I’ve been following this thread and want to offer my input as someone who has done a fair bit of coastal work though I’ve never crossed oceans. My ideal boat would be simple and heavy duty. My list would be:

Industrial running gear. Main(s) would be non-common rail, I prefer a non-turbo engine. Far fewer failure points. Happy to run at lower RPMs in the event I need to extend range or slow down for heavy weather. Gear box(s) would be the kind of gear seen on fishing vessels. Big, heavy, solid.

Lots of spares, especially the ‘soft’ parts. Belts, hoses, filters. Lots and lots of filters. In my experience it is most often the soft parts or bad fuel that kills engines.

Service manuals, all the tools needed to handle at sea repairs.

Industrial duty hydraulic steering. Spare hoses and spare “O” rings. Some way to steer the boat if the hydraulics fail.

A day tank, the transfer pump would have 2 micron filters. The storage tanks would have a means to strip water and crud. It doesn't have to be a day tank in the sense it is one day's fuel. I do want it to not have any deck fills, it is filled only by transfer pump going through the 2 micron filters. A sweet setup if there is room and the boat can take the higher center of gravity is to have the tank slightly above the low pressure pump inputs on the main(s). Makes priming after a filter change a snap.

A proper de-watering pump or two. Ideally one would be portable diesel powered. Capacity measured in gallons per minute, not gallons per hour.

Significant fire suppression. Ideally remote and auto in the engine room. A fire pump and hoses. The engine driven de-watering pump could double as the fire pump.

The hull would have water tight compartments. The engine room specifically would be water tight.

Paravanes. No moving parts to fail.

Doors and windows would be the best I could afford. Diamond Sea Glaze, Freeman etc

Comfort would be re-defined from the comfort desired for cruising protected waters. I’d want my berth down low, near the center of motion of the boat, narrow with high rails. Having been thrown from my bunk in the forward section and getting a mild concussion it’s not something I want to repeat.

The galley would be on the small side, easier to steady myself while attempting to cook.

My preference is to stand at the wheel in heavy weather. The pilot chair, bolted down, would be at just the right distance to park my backside against the front edge of the seat and hang onto the wheel at comfortable distance. I prefer to let the autopilot handle the boat on long passages but I still want to stand. My back and legs hold out better standing. Dunno why.

An intercom from wheel house to berthing areas. Sometimes you need a hand but you can't leave the wheel.

I see a strong preference for larger boats. LOA is not always the key to a good ride at sea. I spent most of my career on a 65' steel boat. Without a doubt the most miserable thing at sea ever. Well, maybe not the most miserable. The boat that threw me from the bunk was 85'
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Old 04-16-2017, 05:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Britannia View Post
You mention probability. Although an individual may only cross an ocean once or twice, in aggregate there have been many crossings on these types of boat. I don't know the stats, but I personally know multiple people who have lost their boats coastal sailing - including one who had crossed an ocean before hitting a reef cruising islands in the south Pacific. In many ways coastal cruising is more dangerous than open ocean.
The law of probabilities are very different for 20 boats crossing the ocean than one boat doing it 20 times. Back to the Lindbergh analogy, how many times will you cross the ocean on the same single engine. Would you do it 20 times?

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Old 04-16-2017, 05:34 PM   #28
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The law of probabilities are very different for 20 boats crossing the ocean than one boat doing it 20 times. Back to the Lindbergh analogy, how many times will you cross the ocean on the same single engine. Would you do it 20 times?

Ted
I'm not sure I understand your point. If you're telling me that there's an engine that's done the crossing 20 times without a problem and one that has never crossed an ocean. I'd take the 21st crossing with the proven engine - all other things being equal.

Perhaps that's not what you mean.

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Old 04-16-2017, 06:02 PM   #29
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I think it's important to consider how much of your cruising time you will be crossing oceans, and how much you will be essentially coastal cruising, at anchor, or tied to a dock. Even the most adventurous world cruisers spend only a small fraction of their time aboard actually crossing oceans. This doesn't reduce the importance of having a solid ocean-crossing capable boat, but it does impact other priorities. The Dashew FPB boats seem like a good example. They are very capable, and perhaps the most optimized for passages. But that comes at the expense of living space and other amenities. Then in contrast, Nordhavns are built more for comfort, but are still capable of crossings, and have done so I'm sure hundreds of times now. But a Nordhavn won't cross as fast and as fuel efficiently as an FPB.

But getting back to features for an ocean capable boat...

- Durability. Can it take a direct wave hit without blowing out windows and down flooding?

- Range - I would agree with BandB's 3000nm as the magic number. That will get you pretty much anywhere.

- I'll assume a reliable engine and other systems, but I would operate with a proper daytank protocol. More specifically, strict segregation between purchased fuel and consumed fuel, and movement from the storage tank(s) to consumption tank only through a filtered transfer system. And I would probably scrub the day tank within a year of departure.

- Stabilizers, water makers, etc all add to comfort while underway. But if you like camping and demonstrating that you can live outside without a shower for weeks on end, by all means get a sail boat. Or if you just like minimalist living, by all means do the same on your boat.
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Old 04-16-2017, 06:57 PM   #30
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- I'll assume a reliable engine and other systems, but I would operate with a proper daytank protocol. More specifically, strict segregation between purchased fuel and consumed fuel, and movement from the storage tank(s) to consumption tank only through a filtered transfer system. And I would probably scrub the day tank within a year of departure.
On my list, add a fuel polishing system with a centrifuge such as Alfa Laval.

Redundancy everywhere possible including steering, autopilot, electronics.

Someone on board qualified as Medical Person in Charge or equivalent knowledge plus comprehensive medical kit.

Access to a medical support service.

Top quality life rafts.

Immersion suits.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:05 PM   #31
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I'm not sure I understand your point. If you're telling me that there's an engine that's done the crossing 20 times without a problem and one that has never crossed an ocean. I'd take the 21st crossing with the proven engine - all other things being equal.

Perhaps that's not what you mean.

Richard
My point was that the likelihood / risk of a problem for the same engine doing 20 crossing trips is significantly greater than one. At some point the risk factor merits twins. That same analogy applies to many things on an Ocean crossing boat. How many crossing before you experience above average bad weather?

Ted
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:18 PM   #32
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Here's something to consider...

For the price differential between the price of a comfortable Coastal Cruiser and a just as comfortable Passagemaker you could have your boat shipped across the ocean via Dockwise or the like maybe 10 times.

More times than I'd bet most passagemaking capable boats actually cross the ocean in their lifetimes.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:31 PM   #33
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Here's something to consider...

For the price differential between the price of a comfortable Coastal Cruiser and a just as comfortable Passagemaker you could have your boat shipped across the ocean via Dockwise or the like maybe 10 times.

More times than I'd bet most passagemaking capable boats actually cross the ocean in their lifetimes.
But you'd never experience crossing. Many boats can be shipped across for less than the crossing itself will cost them. The point isn't getting to the other side, it's the experience of doing so.

You can drive everywhere you go for coastal cruising for less than boating too but it's not the same.
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:17 PM   #34
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But you'd never experience crossing. Many boats can be shipped across for less than the crossing itself will cost them. The point isn't getting to the other side, it's the experience of doing so.

You can drive everywhere you go for coastal cruising for less than boating too but it's not the same.
True...

But but is it actually crossing the ocean that people dream about, or exploring whats on the other side of the ocean?

My boat cant cross an ocean, but it is comfortable cruising a coast. For us, and others with a coastal cruiser shipping might be a viable option.
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:18 PM   #35
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[QUOTE=LeoKa;544186

What do you choose as an absolute basic item/design for a modern passage-maker?

[/QUOTE]

Minimum 42 feet
Watertight compartments for bow/engine/electrics/rudder
Simple solid stabilisation (paravanes or steady sails)
Low rpm engine, -Gardner or JD
Low CoG
3000 mm range
Good Comms with backup
Capable of taking green water over pilothouse
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:21 PM   #36
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True...

But but is it actually crossing the ocean that people dream about, or exploring whats on the other side of the ocean?

My boat cant cross an ocean, but it is comfortable cruising a coast. For us, and others with a coastal cruiser shipping might be a viable option.
Both. Different people, different things. However, we do dream of the crossing itself. We're read many stories about it and want to experience it at least once.

Now, to flip it a bit, there are places in the Pacific that you can only reach by crossing and not much shipping of boats to those locations.
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:22 PM   #37
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My point was that the likelihood / risk of a problem for the same engine doing 20 crossing trips is significantly greater than one. At some point the risk factor merits twins. That same analogy applies to many things on an Ocean crossing boat. How many crossing before you experience above average bad weather?

Ted
I see. I didn't realize we were on the single vs twins debate. Personally I will have a get home system installed before I take Stillwater across an ocean.

As far as bad weather is concerned - looking at 20 crossings of different boats isn't really any different from 20 crossings of the same boat.

My point is that many recreational trawlers have done this and there are few stories of loss of life or boat. Obviously, risk of a problem increases with the frequency of crossings - as with anything that involves risk.

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Old 04-16-2017, 08:35 PM   #38
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My point is that many recreational trawlers have done this and there are few stories of loss of life or boat. Obviously, risk of a problem increases with the frequency of crossings - as with anything that involves risk.

Richard
Yes, I haven't seen a single post here written by someone who lost their life crossing. Couldn't resist that, but those who lose their lives don't write about it, nor generally do their family members. There are many boats that have been lost at sea. Simply because of numbers, more sailboats than power boats.

That said, I do believe the risks can be managed effectively and minimized. The more you do, the more you're willing to spend, the more you can reduce the risk. That brings us back to the OP and what each of us would consider the mimimum boat and equipment for our own personal risk tolerance. I think the answers have reflected appropriately the varying degrees of risk tolerance among us weighed against our desires to cross oceans.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:16 AM   #39
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True...

But but is it actually crossing the ocean that people dream about, or exploring whats on the other side of the ocean?

My boat cant cross an ocean, but it is comfortable cruising a coast. For us, and others with a coastal cruiser shipping might be a viable option.
To each his own. To me it's about arriving at the other side, an experience which is intrinsically linked to the time spent at sea. Having something you've never seen before rise out of the horizon after getting beat up for two weeks is absolutely magical. The time at sea does have its own value, as well; I find an inner calm that is unattainable anywhere else, but I know that doesn't count for all.

If it's all about exploring the far coast, the most rational answer is to fly across, then rent a well appointed RIB and stay in hotels when you don't want to sleep on the beach.

But back to the subject at hand:

The bare minimum for a passage maker is something that will absolutely certainly get you there for sure. Anything more than that is pure luxury, and secondary to the first requirement. If you encounter proper nasty weather (which you will if you keep crossing oceans), the coziest thing in the world is a boat you can trust. You're not going to care much for hot showers and fresh vegetables if you rightfully fear for your life.

A lot is being said about reliability of the propulsion system. While that is certainly a very important aspect, even a critical one, I'd be even more concerned with the boat's ability to take a proper beating.

You want small winows, all externally framed. Think 12mm hardened glass and no bigger than letter size, smaller if at deck level.

Exterior doors and deck hatches should all be as strong as the superstructure itself (think steel hatches or equivalent) with multiple locking dogs.

Engine room vents should be of solid steel construction, and placed as high as possible (top of superstructure).

Shell plating and frame spacing should be such as to maintain structural integrity under extreme stress. Look into the forepeak of a North Atlantic fishing boat, and you get the idea.

All masts and exterior fittings should be oversized and built through to the internal framing.

The dinghy, life raft and anything else that absolutely has to be stowed so as to not get hit by green water on the deck, ideally on top of the superstructure, behind the bridge.

The bow should be shaped so as to prevent excessive over-spray: 10-15% of LOA (depending on ship size), and equipped with a wave plow or equivalent

Etc etc, you get the idea. Another point which has gotten surprisingly little attention in this thread is stability. You absolutely cannot over-estimate the importance of a nice stability curve. I've had this happen to me:



...and yeah, that made me appreciate what an absolute horror it is to hold on through the night, half expecting to capsize at any moment.

While OP's question was about the bare minimum and not "which boat would you ideally choose for passage making", I alluded to re-purposed professional boats above, because they tick all the right boxes. Recreational boats, while undeniably much more comfortable, tend to be let down by large window surfaces and the like.
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:51 AM   #40
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I think very few people actually want a true sea boat.

Remember that movie line... "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" Well Henning pretty much summed it up above.

Diesel Ducks with their tiny portholes, cave-like interior and minor exterior lounging areas may be one of the best examples of a recreational boat designed for ocean work. That have features you would want when heading to polar areas.

Nordys and Berings may be popular and strong production boats, but they are way down the scale. But they are perfect for their intended market.

The OP referred to a passagemaker, which by popular definition is for crossing oceans. But even that does not adequately define his personal SOR.

By the way, by my observation the more expensive a boat is the less seaworthy it is. Hundreds of 38' sailboats have circumnavigated the earth, equipped with a handheld gps or a sextant. Probably cost their owners 40k-100k on average. Dozens of power yachts have crossed oceans, a few have circumnavigated, probably cost their owners 500k to over a million. Interesting, huh?
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