Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-05-2017, 06:45 PM   #21
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,563
Greetings,
Mr. s. Let me assure you. Even with twins I'm not always on my game. ANY landing you can walk away from is a good one.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2017, 09:50 PM   #22
TF Site Team
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,663
The most serious test of your boat handling skills is backing into a mooring. This is especially challenging in a vessel with a single screw and no other propeller.
What you have is the only control of the boat acting at the stern, with reverse propulsion, sideways movement in reverse "propwalk" of varying quantity, and limited effectiveness of rudder surfaces. In order to succeed, you need to understand the forces and how to use them to your advantage.

Backing in a strait line? Yes it is possible, but it requires enough water flow past the control surfaces of the rudder to allow the rudder to actually direct the stern of the boat in the direction that you want to go. This will not occur at very low speeds, where the influence of Propwalk is much greater than the influence of the rudder.

Entering a moorage slip in reverse? Also possible, once you have made the propwalk your friend. Most engines turn clockwise, so in reverse, your propeller will turn counterclockwise, pulling your stern to port. If you want to enter a slip in reverse, it must be on your port side, your rudder must be set for a turn to starboard. Then the "back and fill" action will quickly move your stern to port and with some practice you can back your boat into that port side slip. If your slip is to starboard, you will need to go past the slip, turn around and put the slip on your port side, then you will be able to back into it.
__________________
Keith
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 01:36 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
City: Houston
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 333
Schrater- it's totally worth looking around for an accessible marina with some empty (un-rented) slips, and just practicing. Usually a weekday is good. Hang a bunch of fenders over both sides and the transom first. Borrow a few if you need more...
You might only get one wind/current condition each time but it will still be a "learning moment".

I started with an oversized slip and went super slow. If it wasn't working out, well, nobody was around to see me bail out and start again on a Monday afternoon. It also taught me where to set up my dock lines and which one mattered in different situations.

Personally, I think this stuff is half the fun of boating...getting mad skills and feeling competent. Also, thrusters are very handy and I'm all for them, but they're sorta like the Google map function in my car...people used to get around fine without either of them.

PS - I'd also recommend practicing "parallel parking". That's an art in itself. (Arriving OR departing!)
CDreamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 11:30 AM   #24
Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,288
I often have a greater sense of security when I get a new dock neighbor whose boat is backed into the slip. Right or wrong my reasoning is the skipper knows his boat and has skills and is less likely to damage my craft. I get a little worried if I observe multiple nose on dockings with a lot of thruster action. I consider the backing and turning of a boat with confidence in tight places a big step in the process of mastering ones craft. I belong to a yacht club with lots of out stations where tight docking is called for. I am always impressed at the number of skippers who can handle there medium to larger sized boats with ease and finesse. Many but not all are old salts and have many years of experience. They also because of the size of their boats and the tight conditions and the many eyes of club members on them have sufficient inducement to learn to get it right, and by en-large they do.
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 12:02 PM   #25
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,147
The OP asked about single engine with no thruster.

Its one thing to know your home dock...another to stern in at many transient places you have never been before.

Unless necessary to back in for whatever reason... if not, thats like saying dont use a thruster as it is unecessary.

I can do it, and I can put my single, no thruster where many dockmasters suggest I dont...but that doesnt mean I back in most of the time. Especially in new places as the unexpected could happen and if shorthanded, why struggle through life.

If boathandling is a hobby, go for it.

However... if I see someone doing it when they dont have to, and conditions are less than perfect, I might wonder about their judgement as a skipper. Then again, that could be as erroneous as thinking they are good just because they nailed it that time....and the next time they may nail you boat.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 12:38 PM   #26
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
eyshulman,
I thought of that.
And connected to that thinking I think most here consider backing into a slip a stunt that only old salts can do. Not so as some boats are quite easy to back into a slip. Mine is.
I think I hear bragging to some degree re backing into a slip. Not accusing any specific person except maybe myself. I was supprised so many do it until I thought about it and I AM a bit analytical. Now I'm supprised so many TRY it. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't for the darkness I get backed in. And since sterns are so much wider than pointy bows (even mine) the boat gets less weather backed in. Especially when the slip is open to the east where most of the rain and wind comes from. At least in the PNW.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 12:52 PM   #27
Guru
 
ranger58sb's Avatar
 
City: Annapolis
Vessel Name: Ranger
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
I was supprised so many do it until I thought about it and I AM a bit analytical. Now I'm supprised so many TRY it. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't for the darkness I get backed in. And since sterns are so much wider than pointy bows (even mine) the boat gets less weather backed in. Especially when the slip is open to the east where most of the rain and wind comes from. At least in the PNW.

FWIW, mostly we always backed in simply because the finger piers around here are usually too short to get off the boat if we entered the slip bow-to. There are some exceptions, a few marinas with nice floating docks and full-length fingers, but they don't grow on trees in this area...

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA
ranger58sb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 01:04 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Poach
Vessel Model: Sabreline Trawler
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by schrater View Post
Does anyone with a single engine and no thrusters back into your slip? Although I've read that this method can be preferable for combating current and wind, I have been unable to develop any steerage in reverse. I've heard a lot of people recommend "goosing" the throttle, but I suspect they're all working with twins.
I have twins screws, but I always back into my moorage. It eliminates concern for cross winds. And the way I analogize it is that it's like front-wheel drive, pulling rather than pushing. Because I generally operate from up top when docking, I can see better aft than forward. The only thing I have to remember this time of year is to DUCK--the roof beams on my covered moorage are darned hard!
Poach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 01:10 PM   #29
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,147
Based on how many dock crashes I have seen, I wouldnt say either way eliminates any concerns for many skippers...

Comparing docking most twins against a single, no thruster is like comparing a bicycle to a unicycle....can be done but many boat operators I know struggle with twins, getting a single in unless no current, no wind aint pretty if happening at all.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 01:43 PM   #30
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
In the marina behind us (a 40' fairway separates us) there are two boats that routinely play bumper boats as they come into their slips. I have yet to see them achieve it without contacting their neighbors boats. One, a sailboat, tries backing into his slip. He has no clue how to do it. The other is a smaller boat with an outdrive. He has no concept of how an outdrive actually steers the boat. In each case, they appear to be newer owners with little to no experience. Most of the time, their dockmates have to come to the rescue to fend them off the docks, pilings and other boats. Fortunately for all, they only go out on nice weather weekends when there are other boaters at the dock coming and going.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 04:35 PM   #31
Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,288
Its not a stunt if power and access to boat call for a preferred side and stern in. What about the breeze at a hot dock or the view or privacy? what about cleaning or waxing the topsides? Having confident backing ability in your bag is only a plus and how to use it is up to the skipper. By far most of the boats I see backing in have a reason. Good judgement is always a factor and if your preferred side is a stretch too far don't do it, same rule for everything else about boating. I don't see any down side to learning how to back in it is just an extension of tight quarter control. Yes I have owned and backed single engine boats sail and power without thrusters and some were difficult including a 18 ft catboat I now own and back in. On my larger boat with twins bow and stern thrusters and a wireless remote the skill level does not have to be as high. Because of the design priority for maximum maneuverability I can and almost always single hand and if assigned a tight spot usually feel confident about putting my preferred starboard side on the dock. I prefer to see a slip as a safe haven not a frightening challenge.
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2017, 05:21 PM   #32
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,147
I made the point various times, if wanted or necessary, back in..... and know how to do it even if rarely done.

If not necessary ...dont....unless you want to practice for whatever reason.

But "generally" it is way easier to go bow in as most beginners find out and experienced skippers too when in new or difficult spots.

Sometimes just waiting for tide or wind or a boat to move is all it takes to make the mamuever much easier....and thats part of the decision msking game.

But to feel pressure to do it because it signifies handling skills is just silly.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 08:58 AM   #33
Senior Member
 
Puffin_NT32's Avatar
 
City: Watch Hill RI
Vessel Name: Puffin
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 32/34
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 172
After 47 years hanging on a mooring (a real mooring and not a slip referred to as a "mooring"), my current docking skills leave a lot to be desired. I might average going into a slip a couple of times per season. Under pressure from the wife (tired of rowing to and from mooring with "stuff", dog, etc), I've moved to a double slip with a finger pier for each boat. I dock the boat bow in, primarily for privacy, plus it's generally easier to get in with finger pier on starboard side (same side of helm).

Not much discussion here of current at slip. Our marina is up in a river, and has a constant downstream current, running some 2 knots or more in Spring with winter melt and after heavy rains. Current declines through Summer and Fall, and there are minor tide effect slacks. Current runs perpendicular to slip, and I'm on the downstream slip.

That puts situation close to eychsulman's "frightening challenge". Backing straight out in this current is impossible. My left-hand prop walk will always kick stern to starboard (to the finger pier). As soon as the stern clears the pier, the current grabs the stern, and I'll pivot off the end of the finger pier. Even with thruster, there's no way to kick stern to port while in reverse. Reverse prop walk overrides any position of rudder. "Goosing" throttle, and any attempt to back and fill within the slip is not an option. I just installed an 18" Taylor Made dock wheel, and that helps. At least now I'm pivoting off something rolling and soft.

Regardless of single or twin, thruster or not, bow in or bow out, docking at our marina appears to be a definition of "Chinese fire drill". So to schrater's comment on no steerage in reverse, your key to backing in is to know and to use your boat's "prop walk" capabilities. It could be worse.
Puffin_NT32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 09:38 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
schrater's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma, WA
Vessel Name: Matilda
Vessel Model: Ponderosa (CHB) 35' Sundeck
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin_NT32 View Post
Not much discussion here of current at slip. Our marina is up in a river, and has a constant downstream current, running some 2 knots or more in Spring with winter melt and after heavy rains. Current declines through Summer and Fall, and there are minor tide effect slacks. Current runs perpendicular to slip, and I'm on the downstream slip.
Finally someone who understands the challenge! I'm in a river as well (with a constant current of 3.5kts in the spring). Sorry, but the subtleties of prop walk have no power against that. I too have my stern grabbed as soon as I get past the end of the pier, and I too use a dock wheel which helps. Entering/exiting my slip is like going to war. I need forward momentum and steerage. Thankfully, I've never yet contacted anything not owned by me, but it's taken 30min or more to get in on some occasions.

My new plan is to find a sheltered marina somewhere out of the current where I can practice the subtle maneuvers discussed in this thread like the rest of world seems to enjoy
schrater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 10:09 AM   #35
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,147
My marina 2X a month and for several days each occurance gets up near 3 knots where the current is almost but not parallel to the slips.

Many of the experienced pleasure boaters dont even bother to move their boats at the peak current of 3 knots, they know better.

I dont move my boat except near slack tide.....and now bow in only.

The professional captains around here dont have that luxury, but commonly break pilings and occasioally smash boats....have broken a few pilings myself.

If you guys are operating all the time in that kind of current, good luck.

Practice a lot and I bet you can get a captains job most places in a heartbeat.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 10:14 AM   #36
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12,569
Where we dock it is correct/easy/comfortable and visually-appealing looking outside of the boat... to come in bow first. Also, entry to our boat happens on starboard side; meaning that swim step can be an innie - or an outtie! lol

Each slip location has its own distinct variables/needs.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 11:59 AM   #37
Guru
 
alormaria's Avatar
 
City: Trenton
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,522
I feel your pain, Puffin.

This is the first season in a long time that I won't be at a real "Mooring" either - I'll be in a slip. Luckily the only slips they had left were double finger-piered 50'ers that are setup for bow in docking. They are so wide I'll be able to turn around and leave bow out! There is also a generous amount room to maneuver in front of the slip so I don't expect a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Still I'll miss the privacy and serenity of a mooring.

It seemed the marina could not find an insurance company to cover their moorings. Or at least that's the story and we're sticking to it.

The only time I ever felt comfortable docking was during that summer long cruise in 2000. I must have docked, locked and held position 20 times per day in all weathers and currents. It got to be second nature. In Canada they don't use the radio on the Rideau canal system. You have to dock and go find the lock master. Then undock and dock in the lock. Then help with the lock operation. Then undock and move to the next lock and dock again. A summer of this and I could put Angelina anywhere, anytime in any position under any circumstances without thinking. My line handler got pretty darn good too.
__________________
Al Johnson
34' Marine Trader
"Angelina"
alormaria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 12:38 PM   #38
Guru
 
Seevee's Avatar
 
City: st pete
Vessel Model: 430 Mainship
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,498
I'm still in learning mode when it comes to docking, and guess I've been there for 20 years.

With my "new to me" Mainship, I'm getting an experienced trainer to work out the deficiencies. Then I'll practice and go back for a refresher. Getting a GOOD trainer is not easy, but there are a few around.

I've been practicing the back and fill method a bit and have a few questions: Turning to starboard, with full starboard rudder......

With the burst of forward the stern moves and of course the bow responds with a port turn. When I put it in reverse I get the port prop walk. I'm trying to be a bit more aggressive in reverse and then put it in idle and "glide" a bit backward and the rudder seems to have an effect opposite the port walk.

Is this good technique in backing into a slip when more or less prop walk is needed... just glide a bit after a burst of reverse?

Took me 20 minutes to back in the other day, no wind or current, but had to use the stern thruster to bump the stern out a bit to keep from hitting the dock. If I stay a bit farther to avoid the dock, I can't get the boat to walk back in without thrusters (docking to starboard side).
__________________
Seevee
Seevee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 12:48 PM   #39
Guru
 
ranger58sb's Avatar
 
City: Annapolis
Vessel Name: Ranger
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seevee View Post
With my "new to me" Mainship, I'm getting an experienced trainer to work out the deficiencies. Then I'll practice and go back for a refresher. Getting a GOOD trainer is not easy, but there are a few around.

I've been practicing the back and fill method a bit and have a few questions: Turning to starboard, with full starboard rudder......

With the burst of forward the stern moves and of course the bow responds with a port turn. When I put it in reverse I get the port prop walk. I'm trying to be a bit more aggressive in reverse and then put it in idle and "glide" a bit backward and the rudder seems to have an effect opposite the port walk.

Is this good technique in backing into a slip when more or less prop walk is needed... just glide a bit after a burst of reverse?

I forget, did you get a single or twins?

Also, not sure I understand when you say with your helm locked to starboard, a shot of forward moves the bow to port... Maybe I'm missing something? Maybe how much is a "burst"?

Anyway, guessing you're in a single, if it helps I always thought of the movement with ours as a kind of backward "L" -- short leg facing to port, versus a real "L". And then forward movement is a little forward, and then with reverse the short leg of the L moves slightly further to port. Repeat, and the short leg of the L eventually gets over where you want it. Very short periods of gear, in either direction, at least with ours, since the prop seemed to do most of it's work in the first second or so of rotation.

In our current twin boat, it's more like two parentheses. Amidships helm, forward with one gear moves the bow one way and the stern the other. Reverse with the same gear moves the stern one way and the bow the other. "Wiggle" (the technical term) as necessary.

I mention that because the backwards L thing with our earlier single worked like our current starboard parentheses... only with slightly more movement to port each time in reverse.

Hard to describe this with mere words... need hand and arm movement...

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA
ranger58sb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2017, 01:26 PM   #40
Guru
 
Seevee's Avatar
 
City: st pete
Vessel Model: 430 Mainship
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,498
I'm still in the learning class when it comes to docking... seems like I've been there for 20 years.

I've been working more with the "back and fill" method of trying to keep my Mainship backing rather straight into a slip. Did one the other day and took 20 minutes only to need the stern thruster to kick it out a bit to miss the dock.

Question: Backing in, boats prop walks to port, rudder full starboard, using back and fill method:
I'll goose it forward, stern turns port, bow turns starboard nicely. In backing up slow, the stern walks to starboard. But if I goose it in reverse and then come back to neutral, the rudder seems to take effect turning the other way. Is this a good way to get the boat running straight? Hard to do a lot because I get close to the seawall and dock.


__________________
Seevee
Seevee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012