Autonomous marine travel

[Jklotz]

I just watched a video about the latest generation of Furuno electronics:

https://youtu.be/PcLAMXsHkJc?si=s9vQa1UL14OqxnS_

They now have auto routing that will route around other boats, shallows, buoys, etc, automatically. In other words, if your using auto pilot and have a course charted, and it finds something dangerous within that course while underway, it will automatically steer you around the danger without any input from the pilot. I'd imagine other companies are doing similar things.

What I found most interesting, however, was the short interview with the CEO at the end of the video, where he talks about the ultimate goal is completely autonomous marine travel. In other words, you say "take me to Bimini (or Charleston marina or...)", press go then wake up when you get there.

What are your thoughts on this? Not any particular electronics company or equipment, but autonomous travel. Do you ever see yourself traveling like that? Do you think it will make boating safer? If it were available today, at a reasonable price, is it something you'd consider installing on your boat?

 

[SeaDogAK]

No.

 

[psneeld]

We (society) are letting cars/taxis do it with what I consider a reasonable amount of the same dangers as sea travel (navigation wise...safety too is catching up).

The future always seems foreign to most of us, but yet it arrives with new and different ways of living.

The problem I see is.... as the world population grows and anyone with enough money can buy the tools to cross oceans, climb mountains, hike difficult trails without the individual's real participation... those activities/goals/dreams may become so crowded or become so common, the whole point in doing it is a bit lost.....

 

[Seevee]

Saw the same video. They mentioned bouys so I’d have to ask, why didn’t the “safe” autorouting avoid that in the first place.

Overall, I love autorouting and theirs sounds great, plus the new chartplotters look great. And I’ve always loved their radar.

For me to switch over from Garmin, is foolish and the Garmin is less than a year old. Works ok, but a step down from what I expected. Garmin would not be on my radar (pun intended) for a new electronics install.

 

[tiltrider1]

Yes it’s the future just like all the toys in Star Trek but just exactly when will that future arrive is anybody’s guess.

 

[High Wire]

No thanks. It’s bad enough that we have unthinking nitwits out there that are just as bad. We as humans seem to have some need to prove that electronics can drive while everyone else has a party. One Upmanship?

 

[Jklotz]

No thanks. It’s bad enough that we have unthinking nitwits out there that are just as bad. We as humans seem to have some need to prove that electronics can drive while everyone else has a party. One Upmanship?

Yea, maybe, but from my limited experience in crowded waters, I'd feel safer if some of the other boaters were being driven by a computer. You know, the "hold my beer, watch this" guys.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Nope. NOT for the boat BUT, in the future, I would very much like to hop in the car, program in FLL and press go. Rather than 2-3 days, be there in 20 hours. Calm and rested.
Much easier IMO to restrain/guide a vehicle in one traffic lane at the same speed as other traffic than potentially veering back and forth in a congested waterway.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Nothing prevent this technology wise, what delays it is wide adoption like anything else. Like for cars, theoretically we could bring accident to 0 technology wise, but this is assuming all car would be equipped with compatible technologies what will take time.
Look at how much time it took for all cars to be equipped with security belt and airbags, multiply by 10 when it is a question of compatible electronics.
This trend exist for all kind of transportation, being planes, cars, trains etc boats are no different.
Many years ago started a program for railroads named positive train control (PTC) to avoid collision, derailment because of overspeed etc. it took more than 10 years to put this in place in north americas and still not all railroad are equipped.
But let see in 20 years what it would be.

L

 

[SteveK]

Yes it’s the future just like all the toys in Star Trek but just exactly when will that future arrive is anybody’s guess.

Navionics surprised me when I set a start dot and finish dot it automatically (based on your input for draft) sets waypoints that when zoomed into are actual safe course lines.

Not a stretch to have an AI to place the dots and transfer the waypoints to the autopilot.

We have people sleeping in a Tesla while it drives them on the freeway now.

 

[Portage_Bay]

It's not for me. I enjoy the decision-making process of making a route plan. The attention required of me to make sure all goes according to plan. The problem resolution skills required when it doesn't go according to plan. I enjoy the challenge of close quarters maneuvering when I get to the destination. Otherwise I would find boating boring.

 

[RedRascal]

In the Pacific Northwest we get logs in the water and have a fair amount of freighter traffic. Not sure how well the tech will deal with stuff in the water that will either send you to the boatyard for a running gear repair or sink you. Also once in awhile a freighter, tug or submarine will throw a nasty wake that if you take on the beam could very easily throw you out of your bunk or just send you across a cabin if you are not ready for it.

Sometimes it's tough to beat an experienced human looking out the window, especially if said human has tech to assist them.

 

[SeaDogAK]

Maybe it’s just boating in Alaska, but I can’t imagine a computer making all the decisions you have to make to keep a boat - and the souls on board - safe. Steer around logs in the water, change course because of a whale in the distance that might get too close, speed up to make an anchorage before a change in the weather, watch out for icebergs in the water ahead as you pass Tracy Arm, alter course because of a squall line on the horizon, radio the tug and barge up ahead to confirm which side you’ll pass on, check out a slight change in engine noise, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe there could be a computer system some day that will do all of those things. But I doubt it will be in my lifetime.

Granted, I’m a bit of a Luddite. I’m skeptical of self-driving cars also.

 

[Helmsman]

Glad you brought this up, JKlotz. I autoroute with Navionics now, but then go through every waypoint after I have established that the overall route will agree with the general direction I want. I then move it to TZ IBoat and from there it self loads onto my TZT3.

The new XL Furuno plotters have the computing power necessary to do this. It looks l8ke a nice piece of kit.

 

[SteveK]

In the Pacific Northwest we get logs in the water and have a fair amount of freighter traffic. Not sure how well the tech will deal with stuff in the water that will either send you to the boatyard for a running gear repair or sink you. Also once in awhile a freighter, tug or submarine will throw a nasty wake that if you take on the beam could very easily throw you out of your bunk or just send you across a cabin if you are not ready for it.

Sometimes it's tough to beat an experienced human looking out the window, especially if said human has tech to assist them.

I miss the auto I had on my sailboat. It would amaze everyone including me as it kept a straight course and only deviated around logs. The odd time it did not move required much manual steering as there were logs in each sector of a line easily avoided but in the way of a straight line course that confused it. It was posessed of course, but entertained us.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

In the Pacific Northwest we get logs in the water and have a fair amount of freighter traffic. Not sure how well the tech will deal with stuff in the water that will either send you to the boatyard for a running gear repair or sink you. Also once in awhile a freighter, tug or submarine will throw a nasty wake that if you take on the beam could very easily throw you out of your bunk or just send you across a cabin if you are not ready for it.

Sometimes it's tough to beat an experienced human looking out the window, especially if said human has tech to assist them.

I'm curious, on this, as we get log's in So Cal after the rains, nothing like you guy's do up there, but, what if you are running at night, which I often do, to the fishing grounds, there is no seeing logs at night, even with Flir, it would be hard to pick out. I'm wondering if these new systems would work in conjunction with a Flir systgem to pick up these objects at night and change course accordingly.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Just book a cruise and let a professional run the boat for you. Or rent a condo.

I know that’s harsh but boating is about using a skill set that not everyone possesses. Those of us who possess the skill try to use it more, not less.

 

[SeaDogAK]

I have run at night but I’ve since decided it was a really bad idea. A lot of logs are so waterlogged that they float almost entirely underwater, and they can be hard to spot in daylight. I have no idea if Flir would pick one of those up. Radar certainly doesn’t. Those tend to be the biggest, heaviest logs, the ones most likely to break something.

 

[DDW]

Why does everyone want to do something, then isolate themselves as much as possible from the experience of doing it? Self driving cars (or boats) as a means of practical transportation from here to there I can see. And I guess there are some here for which the process of piloting the boat from this location to that is just a disagreeable part of getting there from than here. If the Star Trek transporter were available, they'd prefer it.

Might as well book yourself on a cruise ship. Cheaper, too.

 

[psneeld]

Driving a boat is only a part of cruising.

For solo cruisers who do long trips out of sight of land and multiple days...this tech now with all the right equipment can make those voyages safer. Even if not solo, but with vastly inexperienced crew/others aboard the same. So it would allow some to enjoy cruising without certain stressors.

There are already autonomous boats running out there, yes many still have chase boats but not all. Some of the earliest were underwater types that would pop up to the surface just anywhere without the ability to avoid surface vessels.

I thing I can say for sure.... the average computer I would bet would know the NAVRULES better than most boaters...the question is how good will the AI be at NAVRULES when they don't apply due to multiple vessel situations? Will it have the ability to come to an agreement through radio or sound signals?

 

[Mambo42]

I saw the video and the equipment is impressive, but I have no idea why I would need that on my boat.
If I cannot plan a route myself perhaps I should not be on the boat at all. And I cannot think of some emergency where I would need to use it.
In other words, with nowadays technology anything is possible, but I think everyone should determine for themselves whether you really need it or not. If it ads to safety I am all for it, such as night vision camera's or even FLIR, but something that will plan a route for me ? Not really.

 

[Jklotz]

BTW, to those who say the technology is a long ways off, consider this: They exist today. The scientific community already has unmanned data gathering devices in service:

https://noc.ac.uk/facilities/marine-autonomous-robotic-systems/asv

https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/technology/usv/usv.html

They are already in use by the military. On 29 October 2022, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Ukrainian armed forces made a multi-USV attack on Russian naval vessels at the Sevastopol Naval Base. According to the Russian Defense Ministry, seven USVs were involved in the attack with support of eight UAVs. This event represents the first use of unmanned surface vehicles in naval warfare.

And for commercial purposes. In November 2021, the first autonomous cargo ship, MV Yara Birkeland was launched in Norway.

https://youtu.be/lAEThSAPj10?si=dVsmmq73sHwa0pxE

So don't think we won't see this technology in our lifetimes.

 

[boomerang]

Driving a boat is only a part of cruising.

Will it have the ability to come to an agreement through radio or sound signals?

Bingo! Until AI starts thinking about what "could" happen instead of what "will" happen in any given scenario, I don't see how its feasible for everyday travel. AI has to "see" an issue to make an adjustment. It doesn't foresee issues. Is it going to call a tugboat or dredge operation on 13 and ask the captain what they wish it to do? Is it going to listen to the local notice to mariners and make an assessment as to which route to use for the days cruise?
Nah, I'm running the boat because I know I can trust my decisions ,which makes the trip more pleasurable.

 

[Jklotz]

I'd imagine a similar discussion was had a while back with the introduction of auto-pilot, which is on a majority of boats now.

 

[Helmsman]

Bingo! Until AI starts thinking about what "could" happen instead of what "will" happen in any given scenario, I don't see how its feasible for everyday travel. AI has to "see" an issue to make an adjustment. It doesn't foresee issues. Is it going to call a tugboat or dredge operation on 13 and ask the captain what they wish it to do? Is it going to listen to the local notice to mariners and make an assessment as to which route to use for the days cruise?
Nah, I'm running the boat because I know I can trust my decisions ,which makes the trip more pleasurable.

Interesting. Your thoughts are on point for using an existing tool (autorouting) that works ok for me and can save time. But, there is no way I would blindly follow an autoroute. First things first, I always go through the route to look at issues for correction. For instance, autorouting may take you to the inside curve on a narrow body of water, which might be a mistake if larger ships are coming at you around that corner.

I agree with you. These advances are just better tools to me. No one should just trust that things might be ok. Too many variables that come into play, outside of the algorithms and data resident in the system.

Maybe one day, but not today. However, that certainly doesn’t mean that these tools won’t help make things easier, or cruise prep easier. I think they might.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have a Rivian R1T. It has driver + which makes it self driving on highways. I like it on long drives but wife hates it. I take pleasure in driving. Particularly apexing turns on a motorcycle at speed. I like wandering not just going from point A to point B. I know even just using GPS routing causes changes in brain function as navigational skills aren’t invoked.

At present we do use autoroute and then ignore it. Rather go from waypoint to waypoint we program or just heading to heading. The AP does 95%+ of the steering. But we impose situational awareness so our brain does have to work some. In the past watch standing on passage was different. First concern was VMG and second staying close to the great circle. Third was comfort. Again our brain had to work some. My concern is autonomous steering on a boat or driving in a car causes brain changes and a loss of pleasure. You become a passive piece of live lumber. Might as well get on a plane or train.

Got friendly with a gentleman who had a sister ship Outbound. He worked as a consultant for the major auto companies (Mercedes, Ford + Stellantis) developing autonomous cars. He pointed out one of the main drivers for development was the insurance industry. As mechanical devices have become more reliable accidents are overwhelming due to operator error. True for cars, trucks, airplanes and ships. Properly developed autonomous vehicles of any sort result in fewer claims. Also for commercial transportation less fuel burn and expense. Less labor costs.

Ever time we give up a function to an automatic system we change the work our brains do. Things as simple as voice control or transcription or spell check on your phone dumbs you down. Every time we relegate a skill set to a machine we create an interface between us and reality. We become more divorced from that reality so have less pleasure. Compare cruising on a bike to the same trip in an autonomous air conditioned car with the windows closed and that 8 speaker sound system on. On one you feel the road surface, smell your surrounds, feel the wind, are hyper aware of torque on your body. Vision and hearing are on full alert taking it all in. In the other you’re a passive observer.

Through the ages folks have made attempts to objectively measure happiness. The science is difficult and unfortunately still more subjective than truly objective. Still all reports are once you have dealt with shelter, hydration, food and risk of violence the more you have meaningful work and are in harmony with the natural world happiness indexes go up. The more artificial, contrived and interfaced your life is happiness goes down. Pleasure boating should engage you and give pleasure. It should be the trip as well as the destination. I will employ the tech advances. But will turn them entirely off at times as well as limit how much I turn over to them in accordance to my desires at that moment.

 

[Mambo42]

I'd imagine a similar discussion was had a while back with the introduction of auto-pilot, which is on a majority of boats now.

There is a difference between keeping a boat or a plane on a constant course or planning the actual route. An auto pilot actually adds safety to operating the boat, since it gives you time to concentrate on navigating in a safe manner.
Having someone or something else plan your route actually takes safety away from operating the boat.

Planning a route yourself will take you mentally over the route. You will consciously decide how to get from A to B, taking all known hazards into consideration and therefore they will also stick in your mind.
The whole thought process is therefore different than just following a pre planned route. When I plan the route for the day I approach it like I used to when I was flying. I look at the weather, I decide on the course which is appropriate for that weather and then I plan the route, going over the departure, the approach to the next anchorage etc in detail. And when we get to the anchorage we go over everything just like I used to do when I was flying.
Anyway, that is how I approach it, but am fine if someone wants to take the easier way. I guess that for most of us, who spend a lot of time on the water, it is not going to hurt us. For people who charter a boat once a year and already have little to no knowledge about reading a chart, planning a route etc, it will be not a good development. As long as the equipment works they can be fine, but the moment the equipment develops a glitch.........they won't even notice.

 

[HeadMistress]

It routes you around anything above the water, but what about unmarked shoals and reefs...all those containers that fallen off ships and are floating a few inches below the surface? It wasn't that many years ago that operating and maintaining a boat required learned skills that owners were proud to acquire. Technology provided aids, it wasn't a replacement for skill. But in the last 20 years, technology has been slowly turning owners into passengers who are proud to show off the latest gadget that relieves them of the need to know more than the location of the liquor locker. And the industry loves it 'cuz it lets them sell boats to anyone with a pulse and a fat enough wallet.


--Peggie

 

[psneeld]

As usual...small differences of opinion lead to many different responses.

As to whether or not autonomous routing is less or more safe...that all depends on its quality/depth of research.

If AI can scan thousands of documents in seconds, minutes (whatever).... it may know a whole lot more about a route than the average skipper I have ever run across.

Coast Pilots, Notices to Mariners, possibly even local news, and it's ability to update itself after the initial course from data would be far more than many boaters ever look at or even know about.

Now I know there are plenty or experienced, conscientious skippers on here that it may not apply to, but the vast majority of captains willing to make some voyages with little experience would benefit from using it.

Again, I doubt the level of use is even remotely user friendly for ICW type work, but a long passage of mostly major navigated waterways and offshore work is what is in the foreseeable future. Tons of money and research have already been spent and done by the militaries and commercial shippers around the world and have successfully tested it.

I am not sure of how much outside input was entered during its trip (supposedly 98% autonomous), but a US Navy ship autonomously left Louisiana and arrived in San Diego back in 2021.

https://news.usni.org/2021/06/07/gh...4421-nautical-mile-98-percent-autonomous-trip

Problems? You bet....how many here have done that trip or similar and never encountered a problem? Whether it was bad planning info or last minute changes or something else that changed the original plan?

So like many a technology involving computers...."garbage in, garbage out"....

Ya know what, the internet has created the same problem with a lot of boaters/cruisers out there. Just read this whole forum and see how much advice is nebulous at best and often just flat out as near being wrong as it can get. I won't even suggest You Tube stuff. To me that is a source of things to NOT do more than the other way around....unless you take each point and verify it through slightly more trusted sources.

Autonomous boating can be a helping hand for shorthanded skippers (hopefully) and definitely a safety item for a lot of skippers who with limited experience and a big ego to go with it. Perfect? Not yet, maybe in the future, so it will become the sextant of old. Some do it because they like it, others will scrap it like most did with GPS because it makes life simpler.

Sorta like the discussion of so much tech that is hotly discussed here.

 

[Hippocampus]

For the 400 year anniversary of Plymouth MA a totally autonomous tri solely powered by solar left Plymouth England. Zero external aid except it was accompanied by a manned vessel once it entered US waters due to regulations. I saw it tied up at the harbormasters slip. Modest vessel of only about 40’. Entirely by herself she negotiated the busy waters of both Plymouths and their approaches. That occurred some years ago. The tech for autonomous shipping has been around for some years as well. Hang ups remain as regards regulatory issues not tech to my limited understanding.
It’s not if but when. Accept that it’s inevitable. I have a near commercial grade wood shop I inherited from my dad. I also inherited a commercial grade knitting machine from my sister. Both pretty much tell them want you want to do and it’s done. Wife hand knits while watching the tube. Won’t accept even the roughs I can make in series when she carves birds. Does it with a knife. Roughs with some fancy hand saws. Won’t even use a dremel. Won’t use an airbrush either although there’s one in the house. What she makes is hers. She owns it. Gives her pleasure. We are recreational boaters. Use the tech if you need to. Still I had more fun as skipper and navigator on Marion-Bermuda going celestial with no outside aid or communications than just with the “get her done “ attitude I have on passage. Many folks engage a weather router. Sure the router is a human but the route is typically dependent upon computer analysis. Add in the sailing polar and comfort level the crew requests the discussion is about which computer model one trusts the most at that moment. Make that decision then feed it into the AP. Two human interactions. Weather router and you. You and the AP. Hasn’t been a reason for years that the human interactions are necessary. Add in sensors and programming for collision allision avoidance and done. Also available for years. Safety will be further enhanced as more autonomous boats/ships ply the waters with the ability to “talk” to each other. No rules of the road misunderstandings. Brits don’t fire people they make them redundant. You’re redundant. You just don’t know it yet.