Auto pilot or radar ....

[Sailor of Fortune]

choose the Iron Mike..

 

[markpierce]

Having experienced last week total electrical failure (no GPS, radar, autopilot, etcetera) while boating in fog, but blessed with a non-electronic engine requiring only fuel and air and sufficient visibility between channel markers, successfully navigating to a boatyard, I vote for radar over autopilot if there is the possibility of limited visibility. ... When systems work, we use autopilot 90 percent of the time to steer. ... Previous to this experience, I'd choose otto over radar.

 

[Max Simmons]

Check out the Furuno wireless radar on the commercial section of this site. Inexpensive way to get radar. I use AP 95% of the time and radar 2%.

 

[O C Diver]

I have both and spent 6 weeks in Lake Superior in 2017. Contrary to what many here say, the decision isn't easy. Sometimes the fog is there first thing in the morning; sometimes it just falls out of the sky in the late afternoon. It's not just as simple as saying we will leave a little later when it burns off.

If you're long distance cruising, especially at trawler speeds, the fatigue factor without "Otto", especially in the afternoon is brutal. I did 7,000+ miles in 2017 at 7 knots, solo. Couldn't imagine doing without autopilot. Otto is probably driving my boat 95% of the time. Get into really pea soup fog on a wave less afternoon, and see how well you hold a course without visual forward reference. Hint, even a small change in the compass heading is only telling you what has happened. Steering to a visual reference allows you to anticipate.

I'm not a fan of borrowing money. Beg, borrow, steal (kidding) the money and get both. You may be able to anticipate how fatigued you will be from all the steering, you have no idea (nor does anyone else) how bad a situation you could be in (through no fault of your own) without radar.

Ted

 

[SOJOURN4]

I would get a second job at McDonalds and get both.
Each is good without the other.......
But both together are indispensable.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Having experienced last week total electrical failure (no GPS, radar, autopilot, etcetera) while boating in fog, but blessed with a non-electronic engine requiring only fuel and air and sufficient visibility between channel markers, successfully navigating to a boatyard, I vote for radar over autopilot if there is the possibility of limited visibility. ... When systems work, we use autopilot 90 percent of the time to steer. ... Previous to this experience, I'd choose otto over radar.

knee jerk reaction Mark. If you had a "total loss or electrical, the radar wouldn't get you out of the situation as well.

 

[markpierce]

knee jerk reaction Mark. If you had a "total loss or electrical, the radar wouldn't get you out of the situation as well.

Sailor, the point was I missed radar. Thankfully, the fog did not limit visibility below a half mile.

 

[Gordon J]

If i had to choose between radar and ais, i would select ais. In thousands of hours i have seldom used radar. I steer almost exclusively with auto pilot. Ais tells me snooty commercial traffic and 60 percent, or so, of civilian traffic.

 

[O C Diver]

If i had to choose between radar and ais, i would select ais. In thousands of hours i have seldom used radar. I steer almost exclusively with auto pilot. Ais tells me snooty commercial traffic and 60 percent, or so, of civilian traffic.

Just curious how your AIS can identify which commercial traffic is snooty.

Travel to the Great Lakes and you will find almost exclusively professional courteous commercial traffic. Lots of the same professionals along the Eastern seaboard also.

Regarding the adoption of AIS by recreational boaters in the USA, less than 5% have it. Now if you want to specify a minimum size boat, say over 30', the number is still under 25% that transmit AIS information.

Ted

 

[Gordon J]

The ones that don't answer when hailed

Just curious how your AIS can identify which commercial traffic is snooty.
Those ate the ones that don't answer when h applied
Travel to the Great Lakes and you will find almost exclusively professional courteous commercial traffic. Lots of the same professionals along the Eastern seaboard also.

Regarding the adoption of AIS by recreational boaters in the USA, less than 5% have it. Now if you want to specify a minimum size boat, say over 30', the number is still under 25% that transmit AIS information.

Ted

Damn automatic spell check. I was not thinking of smaller boats. Still, i can tell you that having AIS has saved me more times then radar, while on blue water. ICW, not so much. I can count on one hand the number if times I have truly needed radar. While watching storms is interesting, i don't classify that as necessary.

 

[syjos]

It all depends on if you get a lot of fog where you boat.

And would you go out in the fog if you had radar?

And will your significant other go out in fog if you have radar?

Do you boat in the dark often?

As others have stated, autopilot get used 99% of the time and some boaters use their radar only during reduced visibility - 10%.

Most boaters equipped with radar turn on the radar 99% in good and poor visibility. It has its uses in daylight. We just discussed radar use on TF to great length. Search "Radar Use" it's worth reading if you are deciding between radar and autopilot.

I woul pick autopilot over radar if I could only have one. It makes long runs pleasant on a 8 knot trawler. But on a 25' faster boat like yours I'm not sure if you would use it as much.

If it was me, I'd get both. A new autopilot and a preowned radar.

If you are asking which to buy, you are undecided. You did not mention how long you've owned the boat. I'd wait and boat some more before you decide.

After boating awhile, you will know which is more important to you. Either you find yourself tied to the dock in limited visibility too often or you scare yourself when caught out in limited visibility.

If you find yourself frequently wishing someone would take over steering or you find that holding the wheel on a long straight course is boring or tiring or you want the autopilot to follow courses from the plotter, you need an AP.

You can also purchase a preowned radar for under $750. For a 25' boat an 18" dome and 7" display would be a good match. Used radars can be tested easily before purchase. Any purchased from eBay is guaranteed by eBay. I recently sold a Furuno 1715 radar for $625 and a Raymarine RL70 for $500 on eBay. Both units were low hours and in excellent cosmetic and operating condition. They were take outs from clients boats and fully tested before selling. Older Furuno radars are great buys. They last 20 plus years and Furuno supports legacy products. Raymarine's support goes back mabe 10 to 15 years.

I would not buy an used autopilot. Too many conponents that can be DOA. AP's are difficult and time consuming to test except for the pump. A preowned AP pump is easily tested

 

[JDCAVE]

Interesting decision to make! And as some have said it’s not an easy one. The radar has been described as the most important collision avoidance device on the vessel. It’s “a need” in the dark and in the fog. However, it’s the devil to hand steer a boat in the fog because of over-steering. That’s when the auto pilot is at its most useful.

Some here have said they rarely use their radar. If they aren’t using it they aren’t learning to use it. I constantly refer to my radar screen, changing the range and tuning it. It then become a seamless process when it’s foggy.

I guess if pushed to decide, I’d choose the auto pilot, but I would completely avoid fog and dark conditions without a radar. I would make sure I had both units the next year. You could buy a used unit from a reliable dealer. That might bring the cost down.

Jim

 

[ssobol]

It seems to me that an autopilot is not very useful. Where I boat you need to pay attention to what's ahead to avoid debris in the water. So I'm sitting at the helm anyway. At cruising speed my boat tracks straight so having to make constant adjustments is not required (except when avoiding an obstacle). I just point the boat where I want and make periodic adjustments as necessary. In snotty conditions I'm actively driving the boat anyway.

Only utility may be if you are single handing and need to use the head. Of course, you might end up getting hit by a ferry.

I just heave to when nature calls.

Long distance blue water crossings may be a different issue, but I've not experienced those.

FWIW, I have a radar system but I've never got around to installing it. Never been in a situation where I wished I had it available either.

 

[mvweebles]

It seems to me that an autopilot is not very useful. Where I boat you need to pay attention to what's ahead to avoid debris in the water. So I'm sitting at the helm anyway. At cruising speed my boat tracks straight so having to make constant adjustments is not required (except when avoiding an obstacle). I just point the boat where I want and make periodic adjustments as necessary. In snotty conditions I'm actively driving the boat anyway.

Only utility may be if you are single handing and need to use the head. Of course, you might end up getting hit by a ferry.

I just heave to when nature calls.

Long distance blue water crossings may be a different issue, but I've not experienced those.

FWIW, I have a radar system but I've never got around to installing it. Never been in a situation where I wished I had it available either.

When navigating channels at trawler speeds (6-8 kts) with long distances between markers such as ICW, California Delta, Lake Okeechobee, or meandering River entrances, I find an A/P interfaces to chart plotter invaluable as it will keep the boat in the channel. With any current or wind setting the boat, hand steering can easily and quickly end up outside of the channel without notice unless you constantly look aft to make sure you are directly between the channel markets. All depends on where you are boating, but in places like coastal Florida (ICW), if safety is the yardstick, A/P is arguably more important than radar

 

[IronZebra]

I have the Atlas Acadia 25 also. My Acadia 25 is cable steering, not hydraulic. Mine came with the Raymarine autopilot that turns the wheel, Raymarine SPX-5R autopilot.

The drive unit that turns the wheel is not working correctly and from what I have read is pretty much not supported anymore because it is so unreliable. (I have been told I might be able to use the Autopilot Controller and rate-gyro processor with a hydraulic unit). If your Acadia 25 is also cable steering you would most likely have to change to hydraulic steering before finding a reliable autopilot.

From my research getting the hydraulic steering/autopilot will cost double or more getting radar.

 

[mvweebles]

I have the Atlas Acadia 25 also. My Acadia 25 is cable steering, not hydraulic. Mine came with the Raymarine autopilot that turns the wheel, Raymarine SPX-5R autopilot.

The drive unit that turns the wheel is not working correctly and from what I have read is pretty much not supported anymore because it is so unreliable. (I have been told I might be able to use the Autopilot Controller and rate-gyro processor with a hydraulic unit). If your Acadia 25 is also cable steering you would most likely have to change to hydraulic steering before finding a reliable autopilot.

From my research getting the hydraulic steering/autopilot will cost double or more getting radar.

Willard 30s, little sister to my W36, also have cable steering. A current owner on out owners group recently said he was looking at an Octopus drive which apparently supports cable steering. Alternative to installing hydraulic. Wish I knew more.

 

[rgano]

I use autopilot every time I use the boat.
I use radar less than 10% of the time. And of those times, less than half I really need it.
I do not need it to see buoys. I know where I am by looking at my chart plotter. It's an old one but it's dead on.

I say get autopilot. It runs the boat so you can pay attention to other things like keeping a good lookout.

If I were to depend upon my plotter to know where the day marks and buoys are around here, my boat would be adorned with parts of and marks from every one in the bay system.

Radar overlaid on a GPS picture is the gold standard IMHO. You can avoid wing dams with that setup too. AP will not help that much in a river with lots of currents and swirls unless you have it following a plotted ROUTE from the plotter. Otherwise, your AP is going to follow a course and run you into trouble because you were depending on it to do something you should have been doing by hand. I found that AP on the Mississippi was useless in a lot of the area where wing dams proliferated because it simply could not react fast enough to the swirling conditions we encountered, even when on a plotted route vice trying to steer a course. I was running a GB36 up the Big Muddy with a substantial rudder and often had to use the wheel stop to stop to keep from being turned 90 degrees in seconds - NO AP can cope with that.

 

[mvweebles]

If I were to depend upon my plotter to know where the day marks and buoys are around here, my boat would be adorned with parts of and marks from every one in the bay system.

Radar overlaid on a GPS picture is the gold standard IMHO. You can avoid wing dams with that setup too. AP will not help that much in a river with lots of currents and swirls unless you have it following a plotted ROUTE from the plotter. Otherwise, your AP is going to follow a course and run you into trouble because you were depending on it to do something you should have been doing by hand. I found that AP on the Mississippi was useless in a lot of the area where wing dams proliferated because it simply could not react fast enough to the swirling conditions we encountered, even when on a plotted route vice trying to steer a course. I was running a GB36 up the Big Muddy with a substantial rudder and often had to use the wheel stop to stop to keep from being turned 90 degrees in seconds - NO AP can cope with that.

Understood. There are some instances where A/P cannot/shound not be used. Crossing a bar often times has conditions like you suggest. But in many boating areas such as the ICW, the channel is narrow and sometimes wind/current set can be deceptive and push you our of a channel. If you use GoTo a GPS waypoint vs steer a heading, A/P will steer for XTE. Result is a much safer and consistent course than hand steering. Though I admit, that doesn't mean set-and-forget. I have found ATONs to be accurate unless a recent storm.

 

[psneeld]

A tool to be used when convenient and safe...which for some captains is much of the times, not so much for others and certainly areas differ as well.


All I aim to point out is the extremes that would say it's safe most the time or useless most of the time...and even that depends on exactly where you are and demanding out of the AP.

 

[cardude01]

I used my AP every time I’m out, but radar only at night,rain, etc, maybe 10% of the time.

What about getting an AP and installing AIS to use kind of like radar? I use my AIS more than radar. AIS is much cheaper than radar.

 

[Donna]

I have both so here is how I use them. I most only use radar at night especially during boat parades when there are many boats anchored very near the channel watching the parade without proper nav lights on and expecting that I will see them. No I don’t see them even driving from the bridge. Autopilot I use frequently, wouldn’t do without it. It really depends on your boating habits and when and where you boat.

 

[Codger2]

What about getting an AP and installing AIS to use kind of like radar? I use my AIS more than radar. AIS is much cheaper than radar.

I have both AIS & a damn good radar. What's the difference? Everyone out there doesn't have AIS but even those that don't can be seen on radar.

 

[cardude01]

I have both AIS & a damn good radar. What's the difference? Everyone out there doesn't have AIS but even those that don't can be seen on radar.

Was thinking it would be a cheaper compromise. I’m not saying AIS is as good as radar. OP said he can’t afford both.

 

[caltexflanc]

I have both AIS & a damn good radar. What's the difference? Everyone out there doesn't have AIS but even those that don't can be seen on radar.

This, 100%. AIS is a very nice adjunct to radar, and a very dangerous substitute for it.

As Rich alludes to, setting a mark on the plotter and having the auto pilot navigate to it is recipe for disaster in many places or on may systems or both. Many of us here with tier 1 systems have observed our boats traversing dry land while going down the middle of a particular channel. I have witnessed this personally in many places MVweebles enumerates from coast to coast.

A radar will tell you exactly where that, rock, marker or dry land actually is in the real world. An autopilot can and has run folks right into them.

 

[markpierce]

Radar is helpful for navigating and avoiding collision. AP is a convenience.

 

[cardude01]

Ok, let me try one more time.

The OP stated he could not afford both an autopilot(AP) and radar. All I am saying is that combining an AP with AIS would be a compromise. Obviously AIS is not as good as radar because it only picks up other boats with AIS and not rocks and poles and whatnot.

However, having AIS and and AP is better than just having an AP with nothing else. Plus, AIS is relatively cheap.

 

[Boat]

The biggest thing that can help hand steering skill is the following rule of thumb: "if you don't actively need to change where the boat is pointing, get your damn hands off the wheel!" That sentence alone has taken more than a few people's steering abilities (in good weather) from making squiggles in the water (constantly chasing perfection) to just making minor course corrections here and there based on compass / chartplotter feedback.

And yet there are men who have sailed the seas for forty years and who hold that no boat can run before it without being steered. They'll call me a liar when they read this.

Jack London - Cruise of the Snark

 

[Bob B.]

Wow, I have enjoyed reading all the posts. Tom from Acadia did tell me yesterday that the cable steering is an involved project for adding auto pilot .... exactly as Ironzebra stated.

We do boat the Missy at night and often run into fog banks on Lake Michigan on beautiful sunny days ... sounds like we may go with radar and eventually add AIS to it as well.

Many thanks to all who have shared their experiences and opinions to this thread, it has been very helpful.

Bob

 

[Gordon J]

Maybe missed the point

It seems to me that an autopilot is not very useful. Where I boat you need to pay attention to what's ahead to avoid debris in the water. So I'm sitting at the helm anyway. At cruising speed my boat tracks straight so having to make constant adjustments is not required (except when avoiding an obstacle). I just point the boat where I want and make periodic adjustments as necessary. In snotty conditions I'm actively driving the boat anyway.

Only utility may be if you are single handing and need to use the head. Of course, you might end up getting hit by a ferry.

I just heave to when nature calls.

Long distance blue water crossings may be a different issue, but I've not experienced those.

FWIW, I have a radar system but I've never got around to installing it. Never been in a situation where I wished I had it available either.

Auto pilot doesn't mean you don't have to pay attention. I am always at the helm, auto pilot or not. No sailor worth his salt would leave the bridge unmanned

 

[markpierce]

Auto pilot doesn't mean you don't have to pay attention. I am always at the helm, auto pilot or not. No sailor worth his salt would leave the bridge unmanned

Definitely. AP allows one to be a more effective lookout.