Another "What Would You Do?"

[Codger2]

Of course you ultimately have to do what you can to avoid collision but a turn to port would have put you in the wrong if there was a collision in a situation determined to be head on. I recall my instructor for my uscg license telling us a similar anecdote where he kept turning to stb and the other vessel kept turning to port into him. He said he would have ran aground turning to stb before getting caught turning to port. I think I believed him.

I wouldn't have believed him as I would rather be in the wrong and survive than turning to starboard and being "dead right."

 

[Tom.B]

Without going to look it up... Is there a RULE that we have to pass port-to-port? We aren't confined by the same rules as cars... I know is just feels right to pass like we are, but it isn't required as far as I am aware. This has happened to me more than once and it seemed like the easiest solution was to just to go starboard-to-starboard. Problem solved.

 

[menzies]

Without going to look it up... Is there a RULE that we have to pass port-to-port? We aren't confined by the same rules as cars... I know is just feels right to pass like we are, but it isn't required as far as I am aware. This has happened to me more than once and it seemed like the easiest solution was to just to go starboard-to-starboard. Problem solved.

Except he would then have been the stand on vessel by rule and if we collided, especially after I changed my course, I would have been in the wrong.

 

[Xsbank]

Tom B, yes, there is. I recommend that you get out “the book” before you go out again. ��

 

[rslifkin]

As far as I know, passing port to port is the standard and strongly advised, but not required when conditions indicate that something else would work better.

 

[Porgy]

I’d argue that Rule 9 applies. The oncoming vessel failed to stay on his starboard side of the channel and also impeded passage of the OP. At that point, the oncoming vessel became the give way vessel. I’d then look at Rule 17 which allows the OP to take corrective measures to avoid a collision. I believe the action of turning to port does not suddenly make the OP the give way vessel or violate Rule 14. My understanding is that once a risk of collision exists, the status of the vessels does not change until the crossing and risk has passed. I think Rule 17(d) alludes to that but I cannot find more specific language at the moment.

Even if Rule 14 applies, it seems absurd that the OP would be obligated to run aground as the only permissible option. In Maine, he should required to run up on a ledge rather turn to port? If nothing else, Rule 2 applies.

In any case, I’d first have sounded five blasts then try to raise on the radio. If turning to port, I’d announce I’m turning to port to avoid a collision.

 

[psneeld]

Porgy thanks for a good assessment, I agree on all accounts unless I have missed an added detail since the OP.

 

[menzies]

I’d argue that Rule 9 applies. The oncoming vessel failed to stay on his starboard side of the channel and also impeded passage of the OP. At that point, the oncoming vessel became the give way vessel. I’d then look at Rule 17 which allows the OP to take corrective measures to avoid a collision. I believe the action of turning to port does not suddenly make the OP the give way vessel or violate Rule 14. My understanding is that once a risk of collision exists, the status of the vessels does not change until the crossing and risk has passed. I think Rule 17(d) alludes to that but I cannot find more specific language at the moment.

Even if Rule 14 applies, it seems absurd that the OP would be obligated to run aground as the only permissible option. In Maine, he should required to run up on a ledge rather turn to port? If nothing else, Rule 2 applies.

In any case, I’d first have sounded five blasts then try to raise on the radio. If turning to port, I’d announce I’m turning to port to avoid a collision.

The problem with all of that is that there were only the two of us within sight.

With a he said/he said all any investigator can go on is the physical evidence.

Now I would have my chartplotter breadcrumbs, but all that would show is a sudden turn to port. If the other boat did not have breadcrumbs or removed them after collision, it would look like I turned across him.

So the rules are all well and good, I decided to get the hell out of the way!

 

[Alaskasbear]

When in doubt.

Pretty sure the "Doubt" signal is 5 or more rapid SHORT blasts....


I would have hailed, if not enough time whistled port to port, if no answer in seconds 5 or more short and slowed...


maybe more on the radio for USCG recording sake but sounds like a short duration event.

I agree with this decision. The traveling over to the wrong side of the can is only asking for trouble. "Hope" is not part of correct seamanship. The other boat obviously had no idea about where he was supposed to be.

 

[Slider70]

In tight quarters I often hear from the professionals, usually tow boats with tows, on the VHF 16 that one of them contacts the other and agree on what the pass will be. Red to red the normal but I have heard the odd ones agree on green to green for reasons that are not necessarily shared. Though that is very rare. The interesting thing is one of these professionals is concerned with procedure despite both knowing the law. Further, the radio chat is recorded by the Canadian Coast Guard on all channel 16 conversations.

But if that is not possible for time reasons or you can not raise the other vessel. Stop as quickly as possible, engines in reverse till not moving forward, along with immediate five blasts on the horn.

I have seen here in BC, Canada, a sport boat incorrectly, illegally and quickly turn into the path of a very large ferry. The captain of the ferry did the five soundings on his very loud horn, then almost immediately ran over the sport boat with the death of a lady passenger and her son on the sport boat.

In the court case that arrived from this accident both vessel skippers were found at different percentages of fault. The ferry captain lost his license. This as a result of the fact that he did not have his engines in reverse when it became apparent a collision was likely to take place. If it had been recorded on video he still would have lost his license for failure to do all he could to avoid a collision. Whether civil charges occurred from this or not I don't know?

The bottom line is the skipper is required to do all he/she can to avoid a collision even if they feel they are totally in the right. To not do this is in the wrong unless there are some other extenuating circumstance that support not doing engines in reverse. I can think of a few that maybe would put you in the right but maritime law seldom finds 100% fault to one of two vessels in collision unless you have been meticulously correct in your actions.

 

[Bigsfish]

You guys need to spend some time on south Biscayne Bay just south of Miami, you’ll get some much practice is similar circumstances, especially on weekends, you’ll become an expert on avoiding accidents.

This past weekend was a beautiful day and literally over 100 small pram sailboats are out practicing for the Super Bowl international race. I’m heading south in the main channel to the keys and I encounter bouys to my starboard and as I started to turn starboard to go around them a committee boat signals me to go to port. Ok, no problem you have a blue coat and a captains cap with scrambled eggs I move to port. Shortly another committee boat come charging up to me and starts yelling at me to go to starboard. I pick my vhf mike up to show them we monitor 16. No response. I continue on my course and the female in the bow starts giving me the your number one salute plus a few nasty words. Meanwhile the little sailboat wouldn’t get to that position for ten more minutes.

Got to love blow boats and people who think they have authority.

BTW the entire time I had slowed to “Slow Hand” speed of six knots.

Come south and get lots of real world practice..

 

[markpierce]

...
BTW the entire time I had slowed to “Slow Hand” speed of six knots.

Slowed to six knots! For me that is full speed ahead, but not seven-knot flank speed. At minimum throttle that's three knots. Takes me twice as long to get into trouble.

 

[Bigsfish]

Our normal cruise is 15-17 knots but we can slow down. I’m older than most of you so I need to get there faster before I die.

 

[OldDan1943]

Our normal cruise is 15-17 knots but we can slow down. I’m older than most of you so I need to get there faster before I die.

And get a good spot on the dock.

 

[Bigsfish]

Only if I can get the queen to wake up before the crack of noon!

 

[Group9]

You guys need to spend some time on south Biscayne Bay just south of Miami, you’ll get some much practice is similar circumstances, especially on weekends, you’ll become an expert on avoiding accidents....


Come south and get lots of real world practice..

Ain't that the truth!

I used to live in south Florida (we kept our boat at Sunny Isles Beach).

Some of the stuff we saw happen, or heard about, probably wouldn't even be believed it I related it here.

There was a dead end canal that ran by our marina that for some reason, a lot of people in go fasts, seemed to mistake for Haulover Inlet (or maybe they thought they were still on the ICW, I don't know) at night. About once a year, one of them would run up into the mangroves and parking lot at the end of it, running wide open at night.

 

[Bigsfish]

We do have two redeeming features: wonderful weather and lots of top less women. I have no firsthand knowledge of the latter, only rumors.

 

[wdbox]

Ain't that the truth!

I used to live in south Florida (we kept our boat at Sunny Isles Beach).

Some of the stuff we saw happen, or heard about, probably wouldn't even be believed it I related it here.

There was a dead end canal that ran by our marina that for some reason, a lot of people in go fasts, seemed to mistake for Haulover Inlet (or maybe they thought they were still on the ICW, I don't know) at night. About once a year, one of them would run up into the mangroves and parking lot at the end of it, running wide open at night.

You can not fix stupid! Darwin proved right, again.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: All of you should, if you haven't, go spend one holiday boating on a large lake near a big city. You'd then have the ICW challenge far more in perspective. You'd be in situations that no rule of the colregs will cover except to avoid a collision. You'd face things like what do you do when there's a Mastercraft pulling a tuber passing on starboard and about to cut across in front, a Sea Ray coming up fast from behind, a bass boat coming out of the cove to the right toward you at 60 mph, a pontoon sitting in the middle of the main body ahead, a Yamaha jet riding way too close and overtaking you on your port side and at least a dozen more boats very close by with at least 100 in your field of view.

You learn survival skills. Exactly what is needed on the ICW. There's something about rules, whether of navigation or of common courtesy when walking down the street. They assume others will follow the rules too. When that happens, they're great. When it doesn't, you look at other rules and you look at what it takes to avoid an accident. You forget your planned path and turn sharply in another direction to avoid a collision. You even run out of the channel if you must. You don't even analyze how the courts might rule, you simply focus on one thing, avoiding a collision.

Same on the roads. I can't tell you how many times in my life of driving I've taken evasive action because someone else didn't follow the rules. I once drove through a city intersection with a 35 mph speed limit over 60 mph when I saw the coca cola truck to my right coming down the hill and showing no signs of slowing down. I then turned around to go back to check the wreck as he'd lost his brakes.

I guess spending my formative years of boating on the lake did prepare me for Miami and for the ICW and for all those circumstances that you can study the rules all you want but they will never fully prepare you for.

 

[rslifkin]

I once drove through a city intersection with a 35 mph speed limit over 60 mph when I saw the coca cola truck to my right coming down the hill and showing no signs of slowing down. I then turned around to go back to check the wreck as he'd lost his brakes.

This brings up a good point. For those with faster boats (even if you normally cruise slow), it's always good to do a quick analysis for any situation on whether it's better to slow down / stop or to power up and get the heck out of there.

 

[BandB]

This brings up a good point. For those with faster boats (even if you normally cruise slow), it's always good to do a quick analysis for any situation on whether it's better to slow down / stop or to power up and get the heck out of there.

I'll respond since Wifey B is asleep. Another circumstance in which speed is an advantage as it does increase the options. With a 30 knot boat, if a boat is approaching at 7 knots one can generally get out of it's way and avoid it. Occasionally, slower boats take advantage of that and just go where they want to as if the faster boat isn't even there forcing you to change course. That's fine except when they then complain about you going too fast as you move out of their way.

 

[Group9]

Oh, the south Florida stories I could tell. One of the funniest was by a friend of mine who worked for Fountain powerboats told me, from back in the 80's. They had just sold a go-fast to a man who showed up to pick it up with his wife and kids.

The Fountain guys were quickly starting to figure out that he had no experience whatsoever, and were trying really hard to talk him into getting some boating training, and coming back, but he would hear none of it.

Finally, he gets everyone in it, cranks the motors, and they throw off the lines. He starts to idle away, and one of the Fountain guys looks over at my friend, and says, "I think he' going to be okay."

A second later, the new owner guns the boat, immediately lose control, takes a hard turn, and runs up on the bank of the canal, and sticks it there!

 

[Southx10]

Not to point fingers or call names. But I am amazed that people are afraid to use their HORN. It is there and required for a reason. I have 25 yrs cruising TOOO many captains dont want to be bothered by all that radio noise. It just interferes with their peaceful day on the water. Besides you are NOT REQUIRED to have a radio onboard. A 36 ft trawler may weigh 20 - 25 ,000 lbs. At 6 knots combined with your speed it is not going to be a fender bender someone will most likely get hurt or killed. Possessions will be damaged or lost. Use the freaking horn. EARLY! So you piss him off WHO CARES. You piss off the local Dirt Dwellers WHO CARES. Get a ticket For noise WHO CARES. If none of that works move to the other side of the channel for a starboard pass. And then BLOW THE FREAKING HORN. Do your best to make sure everybody goes HOME. My greatest fear are WEEKEND WARRIORS

 

[psneeld]

Problem with the horn ....it is not heard by many screaming outboarders and not understood as a signaling device by others.

While I agree that one should use it as if it were effective, a lot of ICW cruisers have found its not.

Generally the worst Iij CW traffic offenders are either not paying attention or clueless they are doing anything wrong. So the radio while not always of use gets their attention the best as you are talking to THEM.

Other than that, if you are paying attention and a decent boathandler, the chances if collision go down significantly,.....especially a serious one. Otherwise there would be deaths and wrecks everyday in many places.

 

[OldDan1943]

I still remember seeing the video on YouTube..... a sports fisherman, bow in the air and stern butt deep in the water. The captain of the sport fisherman had no way of seeing what's a head of him and obviously there was not a dedicated lookout posted.
Sure, grab the air horn but, I question its value and the ability to get the captain's attention.
One question not addressed in the video, was the fishing boat anchored or drifting in the channel.

 

[Southx10]

Problem with the horn ....it is not heard by many screaming outboarders and not understood as a signaling device by others.

While I agree that one should use it as if it were effective, a lot of ICW cruisers have found its not.

Generally the worst Iij CW traffic offenders are either not paying attention or clueless they are doing anything wrong. So the radio while not always of use gets their attention the best as you are talking to THEM.

Other than that, if you are paying attention and a decent boathandler, the chances if collision go down significantly,.....especially a serious one. Otherwise there would be deaths and wrecks everyday in many places.

There's a lot of just dumb luck. So your opinion in is dont use the horn that is required along with required db ratings because they may not hear it. But use the radio that you are not even required to have. Use all that you have available but don't wait till you see the whites of their eyes to do something. I firmly believe there should be a proficiency test and a license issued the same as driving a car. No grandfathering.

 

[Blissboat]

Southx10 wrote, ". . . there should be a proficiency test and a license issued the same as driving a car. No grandfathering."

Amen and second the motion.