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Old 04-26-2015, 07:14 AM   #21
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Both of the cruising sailboats I have owned have had 2 anchors on the bow. But, I am mildly alarmed that several of the trawlers I am lusting after on yachtworld have only one. When the weather forecast suggests a 2-hook-night (or when the anchorage bottom requires a different style of anchor than you typically use), do you drag a spare hook and buckets of anchor rode to the foredeck, or do you just hope you can get by with the single anchor that normally decorates your bow?

I have not yet encountered a 2-hook night. I like to think that's at least partly through anchor selection. (Although I do follow weather very closely, too.)

Our pulpit is a single slot-through design; I'd like to have two anchors mounted, but haven't figured out a graceful way to do that. That in turn led to selection of an anchor most suited for the areas (and holding ground) we frequent, and then upsizing.

And it also led to the selection of a secondary anchor system (i.e., including secondary rode) that can be easily stowed but also easily deployed, for instances where a different type of anchor would work better. Or for augmenting the primary. And then we upsized that, too.

And then we have another anchor -- also manually deployable and yet another design -- and rode aboard when yet a third design might be required. Hasn't happened yet, but I like having the possibility.

Bottom line, we just tried to find decent workarounds for the pulpit shortcomings. Not all that difficult.

Let your lust loose.



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Old 04-26-2015, 10:12 AM   #22
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Oh, Art…you're a lovely fellow and nobody can deny…but it's posts like this that give meaning to the reason why anchor research went on, and why folk with the new generation (usually roll bar type) multi-bottom capable anchors have gone down that rode, ('scuse the pun). Precisely so one does not have to have all that hardware on the bow or stowed somewhere else. Not trying to be provocative here, just addressing the issue raised.

People who have these newer type will, virtually without exception, never have had to change their anchor to get a good set, and if they drag, will admit it was because they never should have been trying to anchor where they were, in the conditions they were in anyway. I have a back-up Danforth type which came with the boat - it has never come out of the lazaret.

Speaking from experience, just trying to disconnect my anchor recently to remove the swivel recently, and remove the winch 3 yrs ago because of dirty/worn brushes, neither action is fast or easy, especially the latter...just saying'…
Fortunately, the fact your 'new' 30 yr old spare winch is still in its box is testament as to just how reliable and forgiving they are. Just as well you got it cheap.
Howdy Pete - The word "Lovely" is not at all usually affixed to my personage. But, thanks for placing it in the textual manner you printed. You are a really good, delightful chap - Too! Don’t cha know!!

Regarding my current four anchors aboard our fun Tolly... What Fun! Each has a purpose and each fulfills its need. Although having spent many years boating on (at times rough) coastal waters of the Atlantic throughout New England and sometime in the relatively (usually) placid confines of SF Bay, due to my wife's and my current needs/desires we boat in just about the calmest tidal-affected fresh waters available anywhere... The San Francisco Delta’s sloughs. I keep a few anchors aboard, ready to deploy simply to play with them in the most yucky-mucky mud-bottom I’ve ever experienced… as well as anchoring into the SF Delta’s Island edges where I nose our Tolly in and cast anchor forward off bow into the dry Island growth for snagging tule and other plant life roots. We do not cruise distances often in the Delta with our fully self-contained Tolly – we do often anchor for days-on-end and swim a lot, as well as to spend many long hours/days cruising around in our extremely comfortable tow behind Crestliner runabout that does 25 knot easy-cruise at approximately 21 nmpg! Nearly 40 knots wide open with still very reasonable nmpg. A few years ago there was an emergency on land happening to our Matriarch. She had hospital care ensuing but there was immediate need for family being present. Soooo – With three aboard that I needed to get back to vehicles ASAP for 100 mile drive - the Crestliner was a blessing. All four of us plus considerable luggage quickly covered the miles needed to reach dock, and, the rest is history… Ruth our Grand Ol’ Lady is still doing pretty darn well at 91 years. We and she watched our 14 yr old grandson (great grandson to Ruth) Cooper play in (star in) two basketball tournament games last eve. His team won one in OT and lost the second by one point! Another fun portion of our lives… my voice is hoarse from those games.

Anyway – Being that I/we often leave abandoned for a day our boat that is anchored in solitude in areas with tidal-current actions as well as occasionally some strong winds I need to feel that the anchor[s] deployed will in no way slip loose. Matter of fact, this summer, I hope/plan to purchase and experiment with an aluminum “Fortress FX 23” to be used with its 45 degree shank to fluke soft-mud angle and its mud-palms attached as back anchor to become a replacement of our current “Viking” aluminum back anchor. Also, not long ago I sold a classic 30 lb Danforth to a professional crabber, he loves it! I like to play with anchors and I love the twin fluke style that Danforth Anchors originated so many decades ago. Properly settled into the water with proper rode tension maintained during anchor decent to bottom and them whispered into its “fluke-bite” with eventual strong pull to fully dig-it-in to attain its full-fluke set – For Me – Danforth anchor design wins hands down over others. Fortress Anchors seem to offer considerable improvements on Danforth’s general design… I’ll comment on Fortress FX 27 after numerous uses. Of course there are some bottom conditions wherein the Danforth dual fluke design may not be best anchor design available to utilize… But… those conditions do not exist where we currently boat, have boated, or plan to boat!

Happy Pleasure-Boat-Anchor Daze! - Art
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Old 04-26-2015, 11:38 AM   #23
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Peter B wrote;
"Oh, Art…you're a lovely fellow and nobody can deny…but it's posts like this that give meaning to the reason why anchor research went on"

RESEARCH? Like anchors in test tubes? And a great scientist makes a breakthrough? And "new generation?" Like there's really something new? Great sun doggies from the sky where our deities reside?

HAHA you give the anchor builders way too much hype and even credit. Probably all anchors are designed by common folk most probably not even being from a reputable school of engineering. Some to many anchors were undoubtedly were created in garages and basements. And all are just slight modifications of all that have come before. And all are presented as some sort of miracle.

I'm not trying to say newer anchors are not better. I think they are but like most all new things they are usually not as good in some ways. And there has probably been genuine research done for some anchors. Like the Frenchman that designed the Spade. He spent a lot of time deciding what shape of fluke would create the most drag. Then he went on to develop the rest of the anchor. Seems like that's getting close to "research" but it's still an individual reading what he could find and perhaps doing simple tests that were probably more subjective than scientific research would employ.

Anchors are probably not even as important as fence posts and I think you're making way too much of the latest anchors. Actually roll bars are already somewhat dated.
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Old 04-26-2015, 12:23 PM   #24
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eActually roll bars are already somewhat dated.
So is toilet paper, but when you've come up with the best tool for the job it just sells and sells and sells....
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Old 04-26-2015, 02:03 PM   #25
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Marin well yea what's the alternative?

Re the subject of the post at least you have enough faith in your newish anchor to not seem to need an alternate on the bow.

The alternative to anchors is to use the one you've got .... probably one that has stood the test of time, it's free and probably hasn't failed you. There are cars twice as fast as my VW but I haven't had a need to go as fast as the VW. A little more comfort wouldn't hurt though.

As for two anchors on my bow my anchors are so small it would be pointless.
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Old 04-26-2015, 07:54 PM   #26
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Marin and Peter B,
I made a survey today of all the anchors that were visible on J and K floats in LaConner. Seems there were 35 steel Danforths, And 22 Claws. Then there was One Fjord, 7 Deltas, 4 CQRs, 3 Fortress's and three Rocnas.

So well over to third's of the anchors were Dans or Claws. And only one brand of what you (Marin) consider "new generation" or roll bar anchors. Looks like "new generation" skippers are an extreme minority and there's no revolution is sight. Since this survey was taken on 30' slips one would expect to find a lower number of Dans and Claws and more "next gen" anchors in the 36' slips. Probably not night and day though.

So I wouldn't be criticizing Art too heavily for not surrounding himself w all the groovy stuff.
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Old 04-26-2015, 08:01 PM   #27
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A Manson set pretty well on a beach.Click image for larger version

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Old 04-26-2015, 08:28 PM   #28
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... yes, no wonder if the scope is 1:∞ ...
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Old 04-26-2015, 08:39 PM   #29
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anchors (or the lack there-of)

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... yes, no wonder if the scope is 1:∞ ...

I should've said the part where I was paid by Manson to say that..... With the boat beached it was demanding some major holding power.
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Old 04-26-2015, 09:36 PM   #30
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Marin and Peter B,
I made a survey today of all the anchors that were visible on J and K floats in LaConner. Seems there were 35 steel Danforths, And 22 Claws. Then there was One Fjord, 7 Deltas, 4 CQRs, 3 Fortress's and three Rocnas.

So well over to third's of the anchors were Dans or Claws. And only one brand of what you (Marin) consider "new generation" or roll bar anchors. Looks like "new generation" skippers are an extreme minority and there's no revolution is sight. Since this survey was taken on 30' slips one would expect to find a lower number of Dans and Claws and more "next gen" anchors in the 36' slips. Probably not night and day though.

So I wouldn't be criticizing Art too heavily for not surrounding himself w all the groovy stuff.
The number of Danforth in comparison speaks for itself. Be good to learn age of boat owners that use different anchor types as well as knowing how long each boat owner (irrespective of their ages) had been exposed to marine life.

Unfortunately that survey would take some time and effort to maintain accuracy. Maybe we could chip in a fund for Eric???... to continue his "user survey".
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:32 AM   #31
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Marin and Peter B,
I made a survey today of all the anchors that were visible on J and K floats in LaConner. Seems there were 35 steel Danforths, And 22 Claws. Then there was One Fjord, 7 Deltas, 4 CQRs, 3 Fortress's and three Rocnas.
So I wouldn't be criticizing Art too heavily for not surrounding himself w all the groovy stuff.
Oh dear, Eric, you took me far too literally. Perhaps I should have put 'research' like that, in inverted commas..? Naturally I meant it in a general, not scientific, sense. And yes, what you said above supports what many of us have said in the past, yourself included, that most people go to a lot of trouble to avoid exposing themselves to demanding anchoring conditions, so often a large lump of anything would hold. However, many older anchor types, Danforth being one, are fairly bottom specific, and/or dogs to get to fit nicely on a bow roller/windlass arrangement.

Good come-back from Marin though, I thought.

My point in posting at all was just to raise the point there are now multi-bottom, quick-setting, good performing actors out there now. Let's call them all-rounders if you like - which may not have the ultimate holding power of some designed specifically with one bottom type in mind, but close enough, and which obviate the need for all that extra weight up front, (a concern you often raise), stowage space, and cost of carrying spares. Not to forget the not inconsequential difficulties than can be encountered if and when trying to change from an unsuitable anchor. Especially if in the dark and wet and rising wind, and often with cold, numb fingers. That's all...
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Old 04-27-2015, 02:59 AM   #32
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Old fashioned anchors have been around forever. Hence word "old" used to describe them. There are far more "old fashioned" Chevys, Fords, VWs, etc on the road than Teslas. Despite the fact that Teslas are selling like hot cakes, at least in our area where even high school kids drive them, they are still few and far between simply because they're quite new to the market. So it is with rollbar anchors.

The vast majority of the anchors in our harbor are the old fashioned ones, which certainly stands to reason. But about once a month or two or three I notice another boat that's changed to a rollbar anchor. Presumably it's someone who anchors out a lot. boaters who don't, which is the majority of them, have no motivation to switch from whatever anchors are on their bows now.
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Old 04-27-2015, 06:31 AM   #33
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While I agree that walking around a harbor full of CRUISERS WHO ANCHOR might be useful...walking around a marina looking at anchors on boats that may anchor 1-5 times a year for the afternoon or POSSIBLY overnight is hardly worth mentioning as a comparison of "who's using what".


More likely a statement for what came with the boat or what the dealer put on the boat or what was on sale at West Marine.
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:40 AM   #34
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Hi Peter and thanks for the response. However you make it sound like Dans set only one out of every four times whereas in reality they probably set in one out of 100. And once set the holding power of a Dan is good. Some new anchors are "scope specific" though. I'm anxious to see how my Supreme sets w/o it's roll bar. Would like to find an average bottom to do some "setting" .. does sound like work though.

Re the Dans fitting on bow rollers I saw a good bow roller that accommodated the Danforth anchor quite well. I'll take a pic of it today. Art and many others may want to know of it's existance.

Marin,
Old .... Yes old. The very thought is distainable. Nobody likes old but I bought a Dreadnought anchor partly because it looked old and was even older than that. But most people just really like "new" and "modern" and some like "next generation" stuff staying "ahead of the curve". But you're newer anchors ARE better at holding but not as good at some things considered very important to many. New is good only if it is good and often not as good in some to many ways. My new car gets unbelievable gas mileage and has great power but is hard to get out of and has really poor visibility. A very stiff ride too. So new is sort of a "not so worn out" thing to me. I have a 87 Nissan that is a wonderful little car but at 280K is quite worn out. But re anchors my Supreme is IMO practically w/o fault. Does everything well. But in really super slimy mud (that which I have not found) it seems lacking compared w the OLD Danforth.

Psneeld I really didn't have time to have a lifestyle evaluation w the people representing the boats in my "survey" so not being judgemental about that. The anchors were attached to the boats present.
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Old 04-27-2015, 05:13 PM   #35
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}
Marin,
Old .... Yes old. The very thought is distainable. Nobody likes old but I bought a Dreadnought anchor partly because it looked old and was even older than that.
Nothing wrong with "old" stuff if one accepts the limitations that come with it.

The DC-3 is a wonderful plane. Reliable, good performance for its day, and so on. So sure, you could start an airline and use DC-3s, and they would be just great at doing what they do well.

Which isn't flying above the weather, flying non-stop with a full load of passengers and/or cargo across the US, flying people and stuff around at Mach 0.85, flying non-stop across oceans, flying non-stop between destinations people want to go these days to like Seattle-London (9 hours by jet) or Seattle-Dubai (16 hours by jet).

You get the picture. "Old" still works, but it only works as good as it did when it was "new."

The "old" anchors are good at some things. Danforths are great in sand and mud, for example, But the "new" anchors do more things well than the "old" anchors do. If one wants to load their bow up with a Danforth for sand and mud and a CQR for whatever it's good at, and a Spade for weedy bottoms or whatever, great.

Or...... one can go buy a rollbar anchor and do all that stuff real well. Certainly as good as the "old" anchors in whatever their specialty is, but they do a lot more. Sort of a 777 vs DC-3 for a bordering-on-the-ridiculous analogy.

The only exception I've seen to date is in super-mushy mud like they had in that Chesapeake Bay anchor test. With slop like that, the rollbar anchor can't work as it's designed to do. But in everything else, it's great. So if one is going to be anchoring in super-sloppy, mushy mud, then that person should carry an anchor that has more of a chance of working halfway decently in the stuff.

But for everything else, the rollbar seems to do the job just fine based on the testimonials from all over the world as well as our own and people we know's experiences.

So we carry one anchor on the bow and an "old fashioned" mushy mud anchor on the stern that's sized to be the main anchor of the boat should we need to use it that way.

All the rest of the "old" anchors, including the new interpretations of old anchors (Vulcan, etc.), are of no interest to us anymore because they don't offer us anything in the way of performance and holding reliability that we don't already have.
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Old 04-27-2015, 06:41 PM   #36
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anchors (or the lack there-of)

Main anchor is rocha 65lbs with 120' chain. In the lazzarette is a 30 lb danforth with only 20' chain on another 150' of rode. We're primarily gulf coast cruisers from Houston to key west and home port dauphin island, Alabama. In our travels to key west this past winter we used only rocha and never dragged nor did we have to try more than twice to set the anchor in unknown bottoms. I'm kind of a "kiss" fan for the waters encountered so far.
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Old 04-27-2015, 07:57 PM   #37
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The highest tech roll-bar anchor at our dock:




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Old 04-27-2015, 10:00 PM   #38
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I'll bet that Bugel anchor is very good except in slimy mud. I see very few. Looks like it could be a good setter and penetrate deep enough to hold well in a small size. Spade just introduced a new updated version of this anchor .. economically priced too.

Looks like that one's been around for awhile or had an inexpensive galvanizing job as there's considerable rust. Do you talk to him Mark? If so what does he say?
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Old 04-27-2015, 11:51 PM   #39
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Looks like that one's been around for awhile or had an inexpensive galvanizing job as there's considerable rust. Do you talk to him Mark? If so what does he say?
Never saw the owner or the boat being used.
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Old 04-28-2015, 12:20 AM   #40
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I carry a good general purpose anchor on bow with fair amount of chain and rode and only use my second aluminum anchor with short chain and mainly rode about 1/15th of the time. The second light high holding power anchor kept below is usually set from my dinghy for it is easier to place it where I want it with no danger of running over a rode. When I place the second anchor it is not always because it is essential but more an insurance issue allowing for better sleep or in a anchorage where a shift of wind over night would put me to close to where I don't want to be. I don't have an opinion as to which is the best functional anchor but I do believe my anchor is the most artistic and well made piece of bling I could hang on the bow.
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