Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-27-2009, 03:56 PM   #1
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Anchoring Kills

Don't know any details or even if it's true, but I saw on the CNN screen that's always playing in the lobby of our building a headline that said the recent capsizing of the fishing boat that resulted in the death of two NFL players was due to "bad anchoring."
__________________
Advertisement

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2009, 04:02 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Jim Spence's Avatar
 
City: Full time cruiser
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sea Eagle
Vessel Model: Californian 50' Cockpit M/V
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 180
RE: Anchoring Kills

News just said that the anchor was hung up in about 130 ft of water. They apparently moved the anchor rode to the stern of the boat in an attempt to pull the anchor out under power. Reporter said that the stern dipped down and waked over the transom. The rough seas that they were in apparently flipped the boat.
__________________

Jim Spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2009, 06:23 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 56
RE: Anchoring Kills

Always remember that the bits and pieces on your boat are not worth your life.* When things are going badly, it's always good to take a couple of seconds to ask yourself "What's the worse that can happen?" if you do what you're planning to do.* If you don't like the answer, come up with a different plan.*
Each one of the guys that perished in this accident could probably have bought a new anchor and rode with the contents of their wallets and never noticed the difference.*
Always worry about people first and possessions second.
Yorksafloat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2009, 06:27 PM   #4
Guru
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Vessel Name: Anastasia III
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,716
RE: Anchoring Kills

Things can happen really fast, and nothing ever goes wrong in isolation. They all compound on one another, quickly. A bit of alcohol or whatever makes things worse.
Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2009, 11:53 AM   #5
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
RE: Anchoring Kills

Quote:
Yorksafloat wrote:

Always remember that the bits and pieces on your boat are not worth your life.* When things are going badly, it's always good to take a couple of seconds to ask yourself "What's the worse that can happen?" if you do what you're planning to do.* If you don't like the answer, come up with a different plan.*
Each one of the guys that perished in this accident could probably have bought a new anchor and rode with the contents of their wallets and never noticed the difference.*
Always worry about people first and possessions second.
Jim, I don't think it was an issue of "saving the anchor".* It sounds like the anchor was down and holding well.....too well....and when they decided to get the hell outta there, the achor was stuck.* And before they could go to their "plan B", waves were already swamping the boat.* They should have cut the line but who knows if they had a good knife or even if they have enough time.* I was on the water when this front went thru Texas and it blew EXTREMELY hard.* It also didn't have*a squall line*ahead of it so maybe it took them a little by surprise.* WIth that said, it WAS forecast and they should have known better.* Things happen very fast "out there".

*
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2009, 12:09 PM   #6
Curmudgeon
 
BaltimoreLurker's Avatar
 
City: Stoney Creek, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moon Dance
Vessel Model: 1974 34' Marine Trader Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,629
RE: Anchoring Kills

I know what I'm "supposed" to do, but when my number comes up I don't know that I'll keep my wits about me and make good decisions in an emergency.** But these guys .... man, it seems from what I've read that they did everything wrong from the git-go.

You old Navy flyers - remember the P3 from Adak that ditched back in the late 70's/early 80's sometime? * If I recall correctly all the old guys survived, the youngsters curled up in the bottom of the raft and died.* Besides training, it sounds like mental toughness is the key to survival.
BaltimoreLurker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2009, 02:49 PM   #7
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,360
RE: Anchoring Kills

It is amazing how quickly things can go wrong. Even to the most experienced of boaters. Are any you following the Vendee Cup single hand - lots of issues with those craft and activities. It seems that very competitive people are more prone to risk taking, with occasional unfortunate results. For Vendee, lots of keels coming off and boats turning turtle. Try that at 25 knots in the dark in cold*Southern seas- and surviving!
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2009, 04:24 AM   #8
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
RE: Anchoring Kills

Just a guess , but many of these boats have humongus engines, 15 ft with 1-2-3 250HP on stern !

A slight goose with the throttle could pitchpole them in a heartbeat.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2009, 02:33 PM   #9
Guru
 
2bucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
RE: Anchoring Kills

If I remember the report correctly they moved the anchor rope from the bow to a stern cleat to try to pull out the anchor.

Ken
2bucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2009, 10:02 PM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 56
RE: Anchoring Kills

Aside from the fact that it is all too easy to criticize someone from the vantage of hindsight....they reportedly moved the anchor rode to the stern cleat to try and pull it loose with the engine.* Once it was stuck and the seas were disturbingly (and dangerously) high, they should have ditched the anchor with nothing more than a waypoint on the GPS if they felt like trying to retrieve it later with dive gear.*
This was the stereotypical "accident chain" where all you have to do is break one link and the accident doesn't happen.* We could spend a lot of time playing the "what if" game but I was simply pointing out one really obvious link in the chain which involved trying to save the anchor when simply ditching it and running for shore MIGHT have resulted in a different outcome.
Terribly tragic situation which (if we're honest) we all can relate to with a "there but for the grace of God go I."* It is my fervent hope that if I ever have an "incident" or worse while engaging in any of my many recreational pursuits that no one will be able to point fingers at obvious bad decisions.* I especially hope that any obvious bad decisions only affect me and do not hurt others.
Yorksafloat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 12:42 AM   #11
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Anchoring Kills

Another link in the accident chain might be in the brief description of the boat that I read recently. It was considered an inside-waters boat, something for running around in the watereways and bays with. The person describing the boat said it was not the sort of craft that people take out into the open waters these guys were in, particularly with a chance of the sea kicking up.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 08:20 AM   #12
Guru
 
Steve's Avatar
 
City: Thibodaux, Louisiana
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Gumbo
Vessel Model: 2003 Monk 36
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,605
Anchoring Kills

This incident proves one thing - Stay with the boat till it sinks!!

Steve Willett
Monk 36, Gumbo
Thibodaux, Louisiana

-- Edited by Steve on Wednesday 1st of April 2009 08:23:09 AM
Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 02:57 PM   #13
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
Anchoring Kills

Quote:
Yorksafloat wrote:

Aside from the fact that it is all too easy to criticize someone from the vantage of hindsight....they reportedly moved the anchor rode to the stern cleat to try and pull it loose with the engine.* Once it was stuck and the seas were disturbingly (and dangerously) high, they should have ditched the anchor with nothing more than a waypoint on the GPS if they felt like trying to retrieve it later with dive gear.*
This was the stereotypical "accident chain" where all you have to do is break one link and the accident doesn't happen.* We could spend a lot of time playing the "what if" game but I was simply pointing out one really obvious link in the chain which involved trying to save the anchor when simply ditching it and running for shore MIGHT have resulted in a different outcome.
Terribly tragic situation which (if we're honest) we all can relate to with a "there but for the grace of God go I."* It is my fervent hope that if I ever have an "incident" or worse while engaging in any of my many recreational pursuits that no one will be able to point fingers at obvious bad decisions.* I especially hope that any obvious bad decisions only affect me and do not hurt others.
Jim, below is a thread that I started a while back.* I work as an airline pilot and hope your last sentence never comes true for me or potentially hundreds could lose their life.* It may be tedious to click on the link(within the* link I am providing), but give it at try and try to follow it.* It is the epitome of "cockpit resource management" and one of the main reasons*our air traffic system has continously improved.* It IS applicable to the way we manage our boats and is along the lines of what you are talking about.

*http://www.trawlerforum.com/forum.sp...picID=18771731


-- Edited by Baker on Wednesday 1st of April 2009 02:57:34 PM
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 05:26 PM   #14
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 56
RE: Anchoring Kills

John,
I am a private pilot and CRM was drilled into me my by flight instructor.* Perhaps more compelling was my wife telling me in no uncertain terms that I'd better NEVER end up on the evening news!* I know exactly what that article is talking about when it acknowledges that mistakes occur.* Heck, I make dozens a day!* The key is to constantly try to think ahead to what situations might be developing and take immediate steps to "break the chain."* A clear example is to have every approach be a "go around" that's interrupted by a landing.* In other words, you're hard wired to prepare for the worst and then you're pleasantly surprised when it doesn't happen!
I am in NO WAY trying to slam these guys.* They got in a situation for which they were not prepared and made some bad and fatal decisions in the process.* As I look back over my life I can point to dozens of times when it sure looks like sheer luck saved my butt.* If we are fortunate, we learn big lessons from those times.* Even better is the wisdom of learning from someone else's mistakes.*
My original point was to notice how often we try to save some possession or our reputation at the expense of something really valuable....our lives!* If just one person learns enough from this to avoid a similar situation - then it wasn't a total loss....
Jim
Yorksafloat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 07:50 PM   #15
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
RE: Anchoring Kills

Coincidently, I just got this in my email...


St. Petersburg Times Article

By Emily Nipps and Drew Harwell, St. PetersburgTimes Staff Writers
In Print: Saturday, March 28, 2009

TAMPA The small boat rocked wildly in 6-foot waves. More than 30 miles from shore, the four men knew it was time to go back, time to pull up anchor.

But it wouldn't budge.

By turns, former Tampa Bay Buccaneers Marquis Cooper and Corey Smith and former University of South Florida football players Will Bleakley and Nick Schuyler all heaved mightily to no avail.

They decided to retie the anchor line from the bow of the 21-foot boat to the stern, then gun the engine to jerk the anchor out of the gulf's bottom.

It only made matters worse. The thrust pushed the anchor deeper, tightening the anchor line and pulling down the stern of the boat, exposing it to sloshing seas.

In one swift moment, the boat became swamped, overturned and dumped the four men into 62-degree seas.

Thus began the series of events that forever changed one life and ended three others.

In a report Friday, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission concluded the men improperly anchored the boat during their Feb. 28 fishing trip.

The 12-page report detailed the boaters' attempt to free the anchor, which ultimately submerged and capsized the vessel.

It also revealed information about the harrowing moments that followed, based on an interview with the sole survivor. All four men were on top of the hull until, one by one, three of the men died or purposefully slipped away.

"They made a mistake that turned out to be a tragic event," said investigator James Manson.

One man, Schuyler, survived the fishing trip.

Three others Cooper, Smith and Bleakley vanished in the cold and choppy waters of the Gulf of Mexico sometime after the group left shore Feb. 28.

Their bodies have not been found.

The Coast Guard discovered Schuyler during an air-and-sea search that scoured more than 20,000 square miles.

Clinging to the motor of Cooper's capsized boat, he had been in the water some 42 hours.

From his hospital bed, 24-year-old Schuyler told a story of loss and survival. Details of his account he was "very articulate," according to Manson were used in the state's investigation of the accident.

The report says about 5:30 p.m. on Saturday, Feb. 28, the men attempted to pull up the anchor of Cooper's boat and head back to port.

But they were unable to move anchor, nestled 138 feet below. Bleakley suggested re-tying the anchor line from the front of the boat to the rear, then gunning the motor to yank it loose.

That was their first mistake, Manson said. The anchor always should be tied to the more stable bow.

Cooper told the men he already had lost an anchor the same way the previous weekend, Schuyler told investigators. An offshore anchor costs about $80 to $100, Manson said, and the men probably did not want to lose another one.

"Again, that's a mistake," said Manson. Cutting the line might have saved lives.

The men tied the anchor line to a bracket at the back left side of the boat, leaving little or no slack to the line.

Cooper started the 200-horsepower motor and the boat thrust forward. Moments later, if flipped, submerged and rolled to its port, or left, side, the report said.

The men were thrown into the gulf, where they clung to the capsized boat. They couldn't upright the boat.

Bleakley retrieved three life jackets for the men and a throwable flotation device for himself.

The four struggled to stay atop the hull in rough waters, the report said. The water was up to their chests while they hung on. At some point, Schuyler cut the anchor line with the propeller of the motor.

"Mr. Schuyler had been wearing a watch affixed with a light and was able to record approximate time of events," the report said.

After hours in the water, 26-year-old Cooper was the first to show signs of hypothermia before dying about 5:30 a.m. Sunday, March 1, Schuyler told investigators.

The other men removed Cooper's life jacket as his body began to drift from the boat. Bleakley, 25, put on Cooper's life jacket, the report said.

An hour later, 29-year-old Smith was next to show signs of "extreme hypothermia," and he slipped off his life jacket and left the boat. Almost 24 hours later, Bleakley appeared to die in Schuyler's arms, and Schuyler released Bleakley into the water, the report said.

Bleakley's father, Bob, said he saw the report Friday afternoon, though none of the details surprised him. He only hoped some lessons could be learned from the accident that killed his son and friends.

"I don't need any more information from investigative agencies," Bob Bleakley said. "However, the public might."

The fish and wildlife report concluded the accident was caused by three factors: improper anchoring of the boat to the port side transom eye bracket; Cooper using the motor to throttle forward in hopes of releasing the anchor from the gulf's bottom; and failure to leave enough slack in the anchor line to compensate for top-water gulf conditions, which resulted in pulling the stern of the boat into the water.

The boat was eventually retrieved, but the anchor was never found.
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 04:20 AM   #16
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
RE: Anchoring Kills

"cockpit resource management"

or CRM was the attempt to cover a mistake in hiring during a pilot shortage in the 60's.

Foolishly hiring "Jet Jocks' who had no need and at times great distain for having other folks in "their" cockpit lead to crashes .

UAL in Seattle dumped a DC 8 in the river because the plumber was new and did not speak up when Sky King decided to lower the fuel level on one more orbit , before a simple "emergency" landing.

The very rapid advancement , and then almost 2 decades of stagnation of the seniority list also didn't help moral or CP communication.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 08:46 AM   #17
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
RE: Anchoring Kills

It is TEM now.....Threat and Error Management. The basis for it is data collection and determining trends before they become accidents. Kinda like determining the cause of a disease instead of just trying to treat the symptoms......along with all that other touchy/feely CRM stuff.
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 09:22 AM   #18
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 56
RE: Anchoring Kills

At the risk of going off thread (<grin>), I don't care what you call it.* If you stay ahead of your airplane (or your boat) and aware of what's happening around you and you use ALL of the tools at your disposal to stay safe....then that seems to be a good thing.* Unfortunately, a lot of these "programs" - invariably identified by catchy acronyms - are the result of Monday morning quarterbacking.* As I mentioned earlier, hindsight imparts incredible wisdom (and I mean that in the literal sense of the word "incredible.").*
Ultimately, I am the one who is responsible for the safe and prudent operation of my vehicle/vessel/aircraft.* I can certainly fall prey to things that are completely outside of my control but why should I add to my difficulties by ignoring simple safety precautions and careful operation of my craft?
"Skin, Tin, Ticket....in that order!"
Yorksafloat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 12:05 PM   #19
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
Anchoring Kills

I just poking at FF because he likely left the business when CRM was just a baby. And also, my point reference TEM is that it is not "just a program" with a catchy acronym. In the airline business, we fly into the same places over and over and over. Through the Flight Operations Quality Assurance program(FOQA), we are able to see troubling trends before they develop into accidents. That informations is disseminated to the training department and the flight crews to be aware of those threats because they do exist. They even show up in our training syllabus and in our simulator sessions.* We are given general information pages for each airport. And on that page are FOQA alerts that point out dangerous trends and threats going into that airport. It might be terrain followed by unstabilized approaches. It might be the tendency of the controllers to change runways at the last moment.* It would be like having a continuous monitor in your lungs(ie any part of the body).....you may be able to see the cancer and remove it before it kills you.

Anyway, to zoom back out and how it relates to boats. It is absolutely amazing at how things can go wrong very quickly on a boat going only 7kts. But, like we have discussed, it is usually the culmination of a chain of poor decisions. The decisions may not have even been poor. There was just another direction that the "flow chart" of events could have gone had you taken another path.



-- Edited by Baker on Thursday 2nd of April 2009 12:08:08 PM
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 01:52 PM   #20
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
RE: Anchoring Kills

If you stay ahead of your airplane (or your boat) and aware of what's happening around you and you use ALL of the tools at your disposal to stay safe....then that seems to be a good thing.

How do you know if you are ahead or behind when your only training is "Switch Position" instead of the "old fashioned" complete systems build up?

Way back in the 70's any crewmember on the "friendly bus line" could draw the basic electrical , basic fuel ,basic hyd ,basic bleed air use systems fro memory.

That died in the 90's with Switch Position IN , and aircraft knowledge OUT.

FF
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rabbit Island anchoring Steve Cruising and Events - Gulf Coast 5 05-03-2011 01:21 PM
Windlass & anchoring Chris Foster Other Trawler Systems 42 02-15-2011 11:46 AM
Sorry, but I have an anchoring question... Tom.B Anchors and Anchoring 45 11-16-2010 04:05 AM
Tandem anchoring Delfin General Discussion 40 07-10-2010 11:22 AM
Anchoring adventures..... dougd1 Voyagers and other Boaters on the Go! 2 12-18-2007 02:38 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012