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Old 07-20-2010, 10:15 AM   #1
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

If you buy a spool of rope it may come with a thimble and eye spliced into one end or both.
The darn thing never fits thru the the gypsy.
There is a splice you can do with 3 stranded rope. It splices directly onto the chain for about 12 links.* If you back splice it you are doubling the diameter of the line makes it hard to fit thru the Haws pipe.**Does anyone use this splice?
I did one this past weekend it doesn't look tidy but it really works well, the first time. How well it will hold up is the question.

SD
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:07 AM   #2
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

They work well, just anchoring ,but,

depending on the quality of the work determines if a combo rope/chain gypsy chews it up.
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:57 PM   #3
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

SD, We have been using a rode to chain splice for years and it works just fine. For most windlass set ups it is the best or only option. If done correctly it will fit through the windlass or hawse pipe and should only be slightly larger than the chain if at all. You may be using oversized line.
http://www.neropes.com/SPL_3StrandRopeToChain.aspx
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:07 PM   #4
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

We have also used the rope to chain splice for several years. We have 5/8" line to 3/8BBB chain. It is a tapered splice that requires one to thin out the line after several, I don't remember how many, tucks. I check the splice several times per season*and have been happy with how it goes over the roller and down the pipe.

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Old 07-21-2010, 06:23 AM   #5
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Same here.* I've done the same line to chain splice shown in the link in Cap'n Chuck's post - it was easy to do and seems to be holding up just fine.* Runs right over the bow roller &* gypsy without a problem.
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Old 07-21-2010, 08:18 AM   #6
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

The problem I had with the splice Cptn Chuck Shows is that the splice doubles the thickness of the line, making it to thick to pass thru the gypsy.* It would slip, not bend and hung up every time.*
I had to use an alternate form of the splice where the line is braded into the chain itself to about 12 links of the chain. This works like a charm as for the feed of the rode.
That was the reason for the question it doesn't look as tidy as the other. I was wondering if anyone else had used this form of splice and how it has held up.

SD
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Old 07-21-2010, 08:33 AM   #7
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Just purchased and installed a Powerwinch Class 41 windlass. Ordered their rope which came with the typical rope/chain spice shown in Grog's animated knots site. Would not fit through gypsy, just too large. Redid the splice using this site http://www.bluemoment.com/warpchainsplice.html. and works beautifully. The line sits between the links so that the chain grabs the gypsy perfectly and the overall diameter is no larger than the chain. I will monitor the splice for wear, but very easy to do if it needs to be redone in the future.
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:25 AM   #8
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Paul,
*Now thats what I'm talking about. That link you gave shows it perfectly.
*Never having done the splice before I was just concerned about the wear.
The best thing about it is that it doesn't increase the diameter of the rode.

If you have a rope chain gypsy. The transition from the rope to chain is as smooth as silk over the gypsy. As long as the line and chain are sized properly.

You are right about it being easy. I think that may have been the issue for me it was almost to easy. And just not as pretty.

Which do you prefer?
*let the debate begin.

SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 21st of July 2010 10:05:15 AM

-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 21st of July 2010 10:19:26 AM

-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 21st of July 2010 10:24:06 AM
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Old 07-21-2010, 11:05 AM   #9
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
chiropaul wrote:

Just purchased and installed a Powerwinch Class 41 windlass. Ordered their rope which came with the typical rope/chain spice shown in Grog's animated knots site. Would not fit through gypsy, just too large. Redid the splice using this site http://www.bluemoment.com/warpchainsplice.html. and works beautifully. The line sits between the links so that the chain grabs the gypsy perfectly and the overall diameter is no larger than the chain. I will monitor the splice for wear, but very easy to do if it needs to be redone in the future.
I have looked at that type of splice and it just does not sit right with me. We use our anchor rode in up to hurricane conditions and i can see the potential for this to pull out. Maybe it is just me, but we have cruised for tens of thousands of miles and i have never seen this splice on a cruising boat.

*
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Old 07-21-2010, 11:15 AM   #10
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

I see your point Cap,
When I think about it. *It would seem to be like cleating a line. The line draws tight on itself.
*The more force applied the tighter it gets.

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Old 07-21-2010, 12:29 PM   #11
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Of course you can avoid the whole issue of "is the rope-to-chain splice strong enough" by using all-chain rode. Solves all the problems.....
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:19 PM   #12
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

And brings up problems of there own. i.e. weight,*cost, shock loads, Rubber snubbers or the need to rig a nylon snubber.
IMHO there is no one size fits all.

SD**
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:42 PM   #13
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
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And brings up problems of there own. i.e. weight,*cost, shock loads, Rubber snubbers or the need to rig a nylon snubber.
Yeah but....... if the conditions are such that they take all the catenary out of an all-chain rode, the risk is just as great of having that snazzy "wind the rope thorugh the chain links" splice come apart, too.* So either way, you're screwed.

I'm a big believer in having the fewest components and connections in an anchor rode.* To my way of thinking, I only want one since you have to have at least one, and that's the rode to the anchor connection.* Anything else---- a swivel, a rope-to-chain splice, whatever--- I don't want in the rode holding our boat.* Snubbers work great, they're easy and fast to rig if you set them up intelligently, and they are not part of the rode itself so do not compromise its strength.

If I had a combination rode that included a splice of the line into the chain in the manner you guys have been talking about I would never feel totally confident in it.* To me, it's a separation waiting to happen.* A line with a heavy thimble spliced into the end and then shackled to the chain is also less than ideal in my mind but I would trust it far more than the "threaded through the links" splices you've been talking about.* If I had to have a combination rode I would put absolute strength and integrity way before how convenient it was to pass through a windlass.* I'd rather move a rode from a line gypsy to a chain wildcat or even haul the connection over the windlass by hand than put my faith in something I felt was not the strongest possible connection.

Like I said, the entire issue can be avoided with the use of all-chain rode which is what we have.* The weight is not an issue on our boat and we have a very workable and effective snubber system so we're not concerned about shock loading on the deck hardware holding the pull on the anchor.

*
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Old 07-21-2010, 03:35 PM   #14
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Anchoring is a hassel.
That being said, it is of my mind that anything you can do to make it less so is an advantage
If a combination rode was not advised , Why would most windlasses have a rope and chain gypsy. The so called experts on all the books I have read call for this type of splice as perfered over the first type displayed on Capt'n Chucks insert.
As I stated in a previous post. To understand how a line and a knot function is key. This type of splice is said to provide 90 percent of the strength of the rope where as a knot will generally reduce a ropes strength by up to 1/2.
Does a dock cleat lock look strong enough. It is just the line looping onto itself.
Ever tied a clove hitch? It is just two loops of the line locking onto each other. The harder you pull the tighter it gets. If you study the functionality of this splice you will see how it works on the same principal.
My concern was never on it slipping. Just on how the effects of the gypsy would have on it's longivity.
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:22 PM   #15
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Hey Dude,I'm back after a week in Ketchikan.
I'm with Marin * * ..don't like splices. But, as you pointed out the knots used (or other splices) aren't even close to 100% strength. I think an anchor bend is 70%. so if an anchor chain to line splice is over 70% and dosn't suffer abnormal wear/chafeing how could anyone object. How much strength is lost with a sized and spliced loop around a thimble?
The amount of strength lost with common knots is a known value but how much is lost in the chain/line splice that works well in a windlass?
Marin avoids the splice w all chain and I do it w all nylon line especially made for anchoring.
So far though the only anchor I've found that works well w all line rode is the Danforth.
I'm seriously thinking about getting yet another anchor * * .. a Fortress.


Eric
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:36 PM   #16
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

More food for thought!

"Anchor Rodes

by Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor)

NB - these are Alain's opinions, and as with all advice you must eventually make up your own mind. He does do a lot of anchoring though!

CHAIN OR ROPE?

The main and ONLY advantage of the chain is that it is the only and perfect mean to avoid chafing of the anchoring rode on agressive sea beds...

Except for this point, chain has all the disadvantages..:
Stored in the bow chain locker, it adds a heavy weight in the last place you want one. When deployed, chain is actually working in the the opposite way to the way it should work:

with light wind, it gives a perfect horizontal pull to the anchor and the best holding.

with moderate wind, its weight and catenary effect give a perfect shock absorbing effect.

As the wind builds up, the chain will become straighter (and this with as little as 25/30 knots of wind). The pulling angle will increase and as a consequence, the holding of the anchor will decrease.

When the shock absorbing effect is most necessary, the "bar tight" chain will not allow this to happen.

If there are waves entering the anchorage, the resulting shocks will be then directly transfered to the anchor, which then has more chance to break free .. . and more seriously, the chain is subject to high "peaks" of pulling force and has a consequently higher risk of breaking..

WHAT LENGTH OF CHAIN?

During the last seven and half months, I spent 129 days anchored (out of 228) in 61 different anchorages. The mean water depth was 6.50 metres and the scope 5/1. The total lenght of the mooring line was about 30 meters, of which 23.5 metres was lying on the bottom (30 - 6.50 m) Therefor, I believe a lengtht of about 25 meters is perfect. If the water height is less, then you will be anchoring with an all chain line .. . if the wind build up, you can pay out more scope but the wind will push the boat and the rope line will not chafe on the bottom.

WHAT LENGTH OF ANCHORING RODE?

Holding is in direct relation to the pulling length of the rode .. . (or more accurately, the pulling angle). Generally speaking, with a scope of 4/1 you will have about 55 % of the maximum holding of the anchor, with a scope of 6/1 about 70 % with a scope of 8/1: 80 % and with 10/1 about 85 % the maximum. - 100 % holding will be achieved with a horizontal rode or a "Infinite/1 scope.

Increasing the scope will be efficient up to 10/1 - With more than 10/1, a large increase in the scope will give only a negligable increase in holding. Therefore, the total length of the rode has to be adapted in relation with the conditions you are expecting to meet, and should be about ten times the maximum d epth you expect have to anchor in. (I suggest 100 meters).

WHAT ROPE TO USE WITH THE CHAIN?

Natural fibers are no longer used .Of the artificial fibers, the one which has the best elasticity (shock absorbing effect) is polyamide (Nylon, Perlon, Enkalon). As the breaking strenght of 10 mm chain is 5 tons, a 16 mm polyamide line will be well suited. (Breaking strain 5.6 tons). Don't oversize the rope. Yes, you will increase the strength, but at the same time you will decrease the elasticity . . . and "elasticity" is the secret.

You have the choice of three strand rope or eight strand rope (also called "square line"). Eight strands rope is better.

CONNECTING ROPE TO CHAIN


Remember: A CHAIN HAS THE RESISTANCE OF ITS WEAKEST LINK...
a) With an "eye" splice over a thimble and then a shackle on the chain.

ALWAYS use a shackle one size biger than the chain.. and secure the pin with a monel wire. This is a perfectly safe solution but the eye splice will have difficulties to go throuh the bow roller.. will no pass the windlass gipsy and will never go through the deck pipe...

b) with a rope to chain splice.. There are two ways to do this: the wrong one and the right one.

Wrong: NEVER splice the rope over the rope after a "U" turn into the last chain link . . . you will lose about half of the strength of the rope.

Right: Make a direct rope to chain splice. This is quite easy to do.. when you know how!!! (We hope to publish Alain's detailed description of this in the future - ed)

FINAL OBSERVATIONS:

Last point, I'm currently in the LAS PALMAS (Canaria) harbor covering the A.R.C. event. (Nov 2002). Curiosity prompted me to check the rodes of these boats, which will cross the ocean and spend plenty of time anchored in the Caribbean. I was alarmed to realise than more than half the boats are relying on what is in my opinion a dangerous rode. (Note - I am not talking about inadequate anchors here).

Main points are:

A too small, rusted and not secured shackle

The use of beautifull stainless steel anchor connectors. The most common one has an axe drilled to put a "security " screw on the opposite side.. although this is a wonderfull idea to avoid unscrewing of the axe. the hole in the middle of the axe decreases the strenght. For a 5 tons chain resistance, this connector has only three tons of resistance ... check yours!!!.

Swivels . . . the theory is perfect, but under load, swivels don't work. More importantly, check their breaking strength, not only with a straight pull but also with a sideways pull..

Connecting links - these have a breaking strength of only few hundred kg . . . NEVER use them on a mooring line.

CONNECTING THE ANCHOR AND CHAIN

A shackle is perfect. As before, always use one size bigger than the chain . . .and secure the pin! The simplest and perfect way is to use a toggle, the same you use for your rigging. Again, use one size bigger than the chain (12 mm for 10 mm chain). "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 07-21-2010, 05:34 PM   #17
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

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As the wind builds up, the chain will become straighter (and this with as little as 25/30 knots of wind). The pulling angle will increase and as a consequence, the holding of the anchor will decrease.--------------------
See, this is the really dumb statement that I see all over the place but what makes no sense whatsoever.* Not the fact that a straightened out chain will increase the pulling angle on the anchor---that's obvious.

But this implication that this is a disadvantgage of all-chain is silly.* Ever see what happens with a combination rode of nylon with a twenty or thirty feet of chain a the end next to the anchor when the wind picks up?* I have on many occasions.* That sucker straightens out right now unless there's a kellet on it.* So in fact you mess up your angle of pull a lot faster and in a lot less wind with a combination rode than you do with a heavy all chain rode.

To me, this is a big advantage of all chain over a combination rode, not the other way around as so many people including Alan Hylas seem to believe.

*
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Old 07-21-2010, 08:32 PM   #18
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

This should not degrade into a debat over all chain vs chain rope combo.
If you want to use all chain Go for it.
Where I boat I find most people use the chain, rope combo I think it is mostly due to cost and weight. For what ever reason. You need a proper and secure way to attach the line to the chain.
These splices are easy to do and make your ground tackle work the way it is suppose to.
So sailor up grab a line and learn to tie some knots.
Rember a splice is always stronger than a knot.

Ever tie a monkey fist or a turks head? A little tougher than a bolin and they really have no purpose on a Trawler.
Every one should know and understand rope and how it works
.Besides they look real salty on your boat.

SD
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Old 07-21-2010, 08:59 PM   #19
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Anode,Sounds like Alain Hylas is a lot like Peter Smith * *..the Rocna Guru. He presents his experience in one area at one scope. Some anchors will hold very well at 3-1 scope but most won't. When he says:


The main and ONLY advantage of the chain is that it is the only and perfect mean to avoid chafing of the anchoring rode on agressive sea beds...


He can't even write a proper sentence. How can the "main" advantage (that implies there are several) be the "only" advantage?
He's just exposed himself as just blowing smoke as most of us here on this boat forum know many, or at least several advantages to all chain rode. Any anchor will set more readily w chain. His anchor won't set unless it's laying on lt's side and chain will surely help the anchor lay on it's side.*In your defense presenting him and buying into what he says I'll say I found it interesting and worth reading. Thanks for presenting it. The more information we have the better we can form our own opinions and the closer our opinions will probably be to fact. I am becoming more firmly entrenched as time goes by into the multiple anchors for differing bottom types philosophy. Last night I was in a very small anchorage w a mud bottom and didn't have my super short scope mud bottom anchor w me.


Eric


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Wednesday 21st of July 2010 09:04:47 PM
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:38 PM   #20
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Marin,Anode didn't write that * * ... Alain Hylas wrote that * * * ..


As the wind builds up, the chain will become straighter (and this with as little as 25/30 knots of wind). The pulling angle will increase and as a consequence, the holding of the anchor will decrease.


I don't think it's silly or dumb. He's simply saying your not getting what you think your'e getting. When you need the full performance of your anchor you don't get the edge you think you have. Nobody's ever mentioned this before but you actually get a smidgen less as the weight of your all chain rode pulling down on the rode increases the pull on the rode and instead of resisting the pull of your boat the anchor will need to resist the pulling force of the weight of the chain. With rope that force can go to holding the boat.
Marin * *..what he's saying is that when you need it (catenary) the most you don't get much or any. As I recall your hero Smith says the same thing. Another time catenary is of value is when setting the anchor and then chain has an advantage. My philosophy is to get an anchor that dosn't need the heavy chain for catenary to set and trade it for a bigger anchor. How big of an anchor could you hang on your bow if you traded 75% of the chain on your boat for anchor weight? All you'd get is better anchoring performance.
Sorry skipperdude * * ..if this goes any further I'll start another thread. * Marin?


Eric
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