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Old 07-27-2010, 01:23 PM   #41
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:


Is that 3/8 chain you're using? Do you know the WL and BL of 1/2" 3 strand?
The original windlass on our boat had a wildcat sized for 3/8" chain so when we replaced it with the Tigres we specified the same size wildcat since our chain was in excellent shape.* Note, however, that this perticular*wildcat is NOT designed to pull both line and chain.* It is chain only.* If one needs to pull line you would use the line gypsy on the the port side of the windlass.* If you had a combination rode you'd have to manually shift the line from the line gypsy to the wildcat when you got to the connection.

This is what I found on a very quick internet search with reqard to the breaking strengths of nylon anchor rode line.* I did not seach hard enough to find the working loads----

Breaking strength of 3/8" nylon anchor line, 4,400 pounds.* Breaking strength of 1/2" nylon anchor line, 5,700 pounds.* Breaking strength of 5/8" nylon anchor line, 10,400 pounds.


*
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:13 PM   #42
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

I found the fellow over in Klawock w the reel winch. He still had it and we came to a good price. I'm going to go get it tomorrow morning. Here's a pic of one very similar. It has the hyd motor aft of the reel and low under alum cover. A chain and sprocket on the stbd side has a very low reduction ratio and a alum chain & sprocket cover. the operators valve is to port like this one. See pic.Now what I think I'll wind up with is a bigger anchor (probably 40....lbs) 3' of 1/2" chain,5' of 3/8" chain, 50' of 5/16" HT chain and 200' of 5/8 nylon Brait. The anchor will probably be a 44lb M supreme or a SARCA and possibly a *50lb Manson Ray. Now I wonder how much all that tackle is going to weigh? Holy cow * * ...what have I done!


Eric


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Wednesday 28th of July 2010 11:24:57 PM


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Wednesday 28th of July 2010 11:26:24 PM
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:30 PM   #43
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Why three different sizes of chain which means four individual connections? Since the chain is there to add weight and hold the anchor shank down to assist setting, which not just use the most effective length of the optimum size chain and be done with it? Seems to me like you're making things more complicated--- and more failure prone--- for no advantage.
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Old 07-29-2010, 03:57 AM   #44
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

"most effective length of the optimum size chain and be done with it? "

For folks that prefer nylon and no mud stench below deck, the "most effective " chain is the heaviest and it does not have to wrap the windlass.

If the distance from the bow to the windlass is good , say 4 ft or more the largest chain that will fit the bow roller can then be used.

We get away with REALLY HEAVY chain that way 5/8 on one side 3/4 on the other.
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Old 07-29-2010, 04:32 AM   #45
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Yeah,I'm with Marin here Eric. It's great you're getting a winch, I'm sure you will never, ever, regret that, but yes, why complicate matters with all those different sizes of chain, therefore involving more joins, (agreed to be a weak point, however it is done), when it is not necessary. The drum winch can take any size chain within reason. There is absolutely no need to taper the chain size. Eric I get the feeling you almost set out to do things the hardest way.....or is there some secret theory about anchoring you still have yet to explore which we are not privvy to? Never mind...you're going to have fun setting it all up. Yes, get at least a 44lb anchor, and I'll say no more about which type, because with one that size, the specific setting/holding attributes almost become academic......almost.....
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:09 AM   #46
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Eric,
44 lb on a 30 footer is way big enough, stick with about 15 ' of 3/8 " chain and with the addition of a nice bulbous bow for fwd flotation you will be Cherry Ripe.
No seriously stick with the one size chain and 3/8 would be good.
Those drum winches are a fantastic unit especially with a combination rode.

Benn
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Old 07-29-2010, 03:23 PM   #47
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Where I could use hull modification is in the stern. I saw your posts this am but had to go get the winch. I'm happy to report it's in better shape than I remember.*Decending chain size? * *com-on guys why would one do that? The fishermen in Craig do that (most) and I'm sure they know why. The (by far) reason boaters use chain is to be able to pull the anchor w the rode as horizontal as possible. The chain in your chain locker isn't assisting in that way. The chain close to your bow isn't assisting in that way. The chain in the middle of the deployed rode (half way between the boat and the anchor) isn't helping in that way. Actually it's forcing the rode at the anchor to iINCREASE the angle of pull, but only slightly. The rode near the anchor is helping to reduce the angle of pull and the rode right next to the anchor is doing very well in it's job of keeping the anchor shank as low as possible and thats (as they say) the bottom line. The reason all chain rode is (I can't say it) is because one would be better off w wire or line for over half the rode. 55 to 75% of an all chain rode is a waste of money and extra weight. The fishermen concentrate the weight of their rode near the anchor where it does the most good. Often their 1st chain is really big stud link chain. Joints??? No problem. Buy high quality shackles stronger than the weakest chain and the line used. You've got links but no weak links. Always safety wire the pins w quaility *SS wire large enough for the job. With the reel winch I will not need to safety wire each time I anchor.
FF,
Yes. I'll need to get a bigger bow roller. I have a big fat 5/8 thimble now and don't have trouble bringing it in over the bow but I'm not fully happy w it. What does this mean?
"We get away with REALLY HEAVY chain that way 5/8 on one side 3/4 on the other."
Here is how my winch will lay on the bow.
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Old 07-29-2010, 03:42 PM   #48
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Eric,
*That is the same winch I have on my boat. *If you did buy it you are gonna love it.**No hassel anchoring.
I do have to walk up to the bow and pull a lever and I like to guide the rode onto the drum to keep it nice and neat.
*My hydraulic pump is powerfull so I don't even drive to the anchor I let the winch do it. *keeps the rode *nice and tight on the drum*
Perhaps I shouldn't do that but I don't know why.*It has worked fine for the last 5 years

SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Thursday 29th of July 2010 03:51:17 PM
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:06 PM   #49
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:


The (by far) reason boaters use chain is to be able to pull the anchor w the rode as horizontal as possible. The chain in your chain locker isn't assisting in that way. The chain close to your bow isn't assisting in that way. The chain in the middle of the deployed rode (half way between the boat and the anchor) isn't helping in that way. Actually it's forcing the rode at the anchor to iINCREASE the angle of pull, but only slightly.
Your sense of logic when it comes to this rode business is truly intriguing.* I'd love to know how you arrive at the conclusion that chain anywhere in the rode*other than at the*anchor itself*isn't helping set the anchor or helping keeping it set.* Even the chain hanging off the bow is helping to reduce the angle of pull on the anchor.* I've watched friends set their anchor with a combination rode and I've obviously watched what our own all-chain rode does when we set our anchor.* When the boat hits the end of the deployed rode, guess which rode is running out from the bow at a much greater (up) angle to the anchor?* Here's a hint--- it ain't the all-chain rode.

Weight is weight and no matter where it is in the deployed rode it's going to to do more to keep the angle of pull on the anchor lower than rode that has some chain right*at the anchor and the rest is nylon.* Chain doesn't suddenly*stop weighing something just because it's more than x-feet from the anchor.

As to the chain in your locker not doing any good, it does a lot of good when you're in a deep anchorage and you have to let most or all of it out.* Your logic is the same as saying that the gas in your tank isn't doing any good because your engine isn't running on it at this given moment.

Given that this whole anchoring business isn't rocket science but in fact is amazingly simple and--- to most people-- extremely logical, your determination to not adhere to what has worked for pretty much ever is commendable for the degree of determination it demonstrates but rather puzzling from the "why try to make a square wheel roll" aspect *
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:25 PM   #50
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

SD,That's not my winch nor my boat. That's Ed's Willard. There's 3 Willards here on the island or "rock" as we call it. We live on the big rock. 45 X 145 mi. Here's my winch. It has the drive motor (hyd) behind the drum in the housing. There is a chain drive w about 7-1 reduction drive on the stbd side. The control valve and lever operated drum brake is to port. It will take 6-7" more of my foredeck but I'll prolly be able to pull up a 200lb anchor. The motor turns over but I prolly should remove it and have it serviced. Most of the boats in Craig are direct drive like yours. I don't think pulling the boat w the winch is a bad w these things. After all your'e using the main engine!


Marin,
If you took half of your chain off and substituted line for that half you'd loose enough weight to put a 100lb anchor on your bow and the rode would still be 50lbs lighter than w all chain. Most of the fishermen have 2 and 3 sizes of chain on their drum and about 1/3 have nylon line as well. Many use stud link chain closest to the anchor. The heavy chain up front keeps the anchor shank nailed to the bottom as though you had 100-1 scope. Perhaps I didn't word the last post perfectly but the bottom line is that the weight of the anchor rode is best employed at the business end. And it's my choice to follow the sheep herd or some other group or to think for myself * * *.. the latter I try to do as often as possible *.... as you know. You and Peter talked me into a winch, chain and a bigger anchor * *...*now there's a few things I'm going to sort out for myself.


Eric



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 29th of July 2010 11:33:21 PM
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:37 AM   #51
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

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nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
If you took half of your chain off and substituted line for that half you'd loose enough weight to put a 100lb anchor on your bow and the rode would still be 50lbs lighter than w all chain.

*
Maybe but we can't carry a 100 pound anchor on the bow nor would I want to.* I want to carry an anchor that I can pull up by hand if I absolutely have to.* I can pull up a 44# anchor okay, but not a 100 pound anchor.

Plus I don't believe in combination rodes except for certain applications which we don't have up here.* I don't want any connections, splices, or whatever anywhere in the rode except the single connection of the rode to the anchor which I make using the largest piece of hardware that will fit.* And I don't buy into your theory at all that the chain all the way between the anchor and the boat is of no value.* I see that value every time we anchor when our heavy chain hanging off the pulpit is keeping the angle of pull on the anchor lower than any of the boats around us with a combination rode (unless there is no wind in which case it's six of one, half dozen of the other).

To me, all-chain is the way to go unless for some reason you can't use all chain, in which case the compromise is nylon-chain.** But if one's windlass can accomodate chain and if the weight of all-chain is not an issue for the boat, why bother with a rope?*

Your drum windlass looks very good, by the way.* It's the best way to go in my mind if it will fit the boat (physically and aesthetically if aesthetics are important) and is not a hassle to power.

Plus you can now forget about rope altogether and use a length of heavy chain at the anchor end followed by a lot of wire rope, which will take up a lot less room on the drum than either chain or nylon line.* Friends who used to have a 70' converted steel fireboat had a large hydraulic drum windlass ont the foredeck and they used wire rope.* Superior in several ways to both chain and line although you still want the length of heavy chain attached to the anchor shank itself.

If you go that route I'll say you're doing a smart thing.

How are you going to supply your new windlass with hydraulic power, by the way?


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 30th of July 2010 12:45:52 AM
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Old 07-30-2010, 05:47 AM   #52
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

How is the rode kept from bunching up on one spot of the spool? I don't see any sort of levelwind device.
Steve W
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:47 AM   #53
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
Steve wrote:

How is the rode kept from bunching up on one spot of the spool? I don't see any sort of levelwind device.
Steve W
Eric, I refuse to rain on your parade over this, when you are obviously on a bit of a high over the winch, but I sorta have to agree it makes no sense to mix chain weights, because even though you join the sections with a humungous shackle and secure the shackle bolt with the finest stainless wire, there is the risk of these rather knobbly joints getting hung up on something.* The suggestion Marin made of wire rode after the chain makes good sense, except the point made above by Steve about evening out the feed onto the drum, which sounds and looks like it will need to be done manually like Skipperdude does, probably makes this less attractive because even with gloves on a free standing wire strand could do a nasty to your hands, thus perhaps favouring one nice chain to nylon rode, with only one join at each end.* But at least avail yourself of the luxury of at least 30 ft of good 3/8 chain at the anchor, then I reckon you could really sleep at anchor like a baby, especially with a 40-44 lb Manson or Rocna on there.* Maybe the guy you bought your lighter Manson from would do a trade, especially if you got chain and nylon from him?

*


-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 30th of July 2010 06:50:06 AM
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:20 AM   #54
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

HEY * *..... I really have got you guys THINKIN.

Steve,
Look at my previous drum winch photos. What a mess. Looks like most fishermen don't do much of anything about the "bunching". I see myself being a bit fussy about that too and that could be a problem as the capacity of the drum is less than I have in my anchor box. In 85' of water I'll need over 300' of rode and the drum winch won't hold that so this is one of the negatives for using this winch. I have an idea about a board on the deck crossways w holes in it. As the rode comes aboard I stick an oak stick (shovel handle) in one of the holes and "lever" the rode over as necessary. Could and would do it w one hand as the other will be on the control valve monitoring the reel up speed. Unlike an electric winch the rollup speed is fully controllable w the drum winch.
Peter,
The anchor at the top of my list right now is the Manson Ray * * ..45 or 55 lb. Unlike you and Marin (you just don't seem to get it) I don't have to pack around 175lbs of almost useless chain on the boat end of the rode so I can trade that weight savings for an unquestionably big enough anchor * * ..but it will need to be short scope capable and an more or less an all around bottom anchor. Rode weight close to or in the anchor itself is weight well spent. How do you guys think a Kellet works. It won't do any good 10' off the bow. Chain * ..yes * *..super heavy 3', extra heavy 8', and normal for my boat 40' of 5/16. The rest will be 5/8 nylon.
Marin,
See my Kellet analogy above. It's like a flag pole or streetlamp pole. You don't see many straight poles * *..the are mostly tapered. One puts the strength and "beef" where it's most needed. People chose the Bruce for convenience (just leave it on the bow) reasons and people use one size chain for the same reason. One gypsy size * *.... one chain size. It's not the best * *..it's convenient.
Funny you should mention the wire rope. Some fishermen use it and it would allow me to continue to have an over-length rode. It's hard to imagine handling something that stiff. How would it work if the wind caught the bow, swung it nearly broadside to the rode * * how would it make the turn at the bow roller. Would seem to need 3 rollers like some construction equipment has. It's a possibility but as I see it now * ..a dark horse.
"don't believe in combination rodes" * .. sounds like religious anchor talk. Ha Ha.
The winch is going to be a hassle to power. I'll need to mount the pump on the engine like an alternator on a bracket and equipped w an electric switch operated solenoid to engage the clutch at the helm. The pump and clutch will be $1000. ..... plus the custom made bracket. Another option is a self contained unit that has an electric motor powering an hydraulic pump complete w it's own reservoir * * probably even more money * *..and either electrons or hyd fluid will need to go some distance. And of course another option is to remove the hyd motor on deck and substitute an electric motor. Prolly won't do.


Eric


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 30th of July 2010 09:27:40 AM
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:23 AM   #55
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Eric,
*you should be able to pick up a small Vickers hydraulic *pump They have there own reseviour, then it is just running hydraulic hose up to the winch and fabricating a mount to run off the main. You may need to put an x-tra pully on the engine.
The pump should have an electric clutch. I have a switch at the helm. I also ran a guage off the pump and mounted it*at the helm Also.

*Oh. check out a product called petro wrap or grease tape. It is sort of like a roll of bandage gause impregnated with a grease of some sort. The stuff is great to keep the hydraulic fittings from rusting up. I have seen fittings 20 years old with the stuff when you take it off the, fittings look like new.*Grease tape is my friend. I use it everywhere on the boat that I have steel fittings. No rust stains. Great for covering your electrical connections or anything outside that rust.**The stuff is highly formable.

The level wind is no big deal. Once you get the lay right it pretty much level winds itself. I have 300' 5/8 nylon with 30 ft of 5/16" chain. Pull the lever forwards the anchor comes up* pull it back the anchor*drops.*
*Ahhh!!! *No problem. I love my anchor system. The commercial fish killers have this stuff worked out. One of the few pleasures of having an x commercial boat.

SD
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Old 07-30-2010, 11:43 AM   #56
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:


*It's like a flag pole or streetlamp pole. You don't see many straight poles * *..the are mostly tapered. One puts the strength and "beef" where it's most needed. People chose the Bruce for convenience (just leave it on the bow) reasons and people use one size chain for the same reason. One gypsy size * *.... one chain size. It's not the best * *..it's convenient.
Obviously you'll do what you want to do, but it seems to me that you are really, REALLY overthinking this whole deal.* If anchoring was a strange new science I could see all the theorizing.* But decades and centuries of theorizing, analyzing, testing, and proving have resulted in a relatively small number of anchoring setups and techniques that billions of boats have proven to work.* It's just a matter of picking the one that works best in one's own situation.

Observing your anchoring adventures is kind of like watching a fellow who has decided there is a better way to get somewhere than walking and has observed that a tree trunk lying on its side will roll.* "So if I cut four thin sections from the trunk and attach them together in such a way that they'll all roll in the same direction*while supporting a platform I can sit on....." while his neighbor meanwhile comes and goes in his BMW.

But this boating business is all about having fun so if you're having that while trying to reinvent the wheel, that's all that's really important, right

The level winding on the drum of your windlass shouldn't be much of an issue.* Chain will probably distribute itself across the width of the drum as it comes in.* Nylon line will probably need more guidance from you but given the small size of the drum that should be an easy task.

As to wire rope, given the size of your boat I would think the diameter of wire rope that would give you the strength you need for anchoring would actully be pretty thin and so be*pretty manageable.* But it will definitely*be stiffer than chain or line so perhaps not the best choice even though you could get much more of it on your drum than either chain or line.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:44 PM   #57
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

I have taken the liberty of copying to here a post to the T&T forum about the rope-to-chain splice that is the subject of this thread. The poster is a fellow by the name of Rudy who with his wife lives and cruises in the southeast US on a boat they built themselves. He seems quite knowledgeable on topics like this. Rudy is answering a question about the viability of the "thread the strands trhough the links" splice that was asked about on this forum.

Rudy's reply----

__________________________________

This splice is a totally acceptable rope-to-chain splice. However, a few
comments about it: This splice will bring up tremendous amounts of muck, if
anchored in muck. But more importantly, this splice is generally weaker than
the other two types of rope-to-chain splices because it is difficult to keep
all the yarns at the same tension, or keep each chain link at the same
tension, and usually both; plus it is totally dependent on the whippings or
lashings to maintain its integrity.

What this means is that this splice needs more periodic and careful watching
than does the other two types of splices. This could take on some importance
if anchored for a prolonged storm, where the gear may not be able to be
recovered for inspection. Umm... at the very least, I see some diminishing of
peace-of-mind here, especially with an elderly splice!

In addition, the individual yarns are more susceptible to chafe than is a
larger strand. This splice can be wrapped to give it some protection from
chafe, but now you are engaged in additional work that the other splices do
not need; plus, then the splice is hidden from view and thus inspection is
more difficult.

The other two rope-to-chain splices, the back splice and the long splice, do
not have these weaknesses. As far as their perceived weakness of making a turn
of 180 degrees and returning back down the standing part, it is of no
consequence, if the rope is sized properly.

If sized properly (at least 2x the chain's size), the rope has essentially the
strength as the chain, or more. Ex: 3/8 PC chain= 2650 WLL or 10,600 BS. 3/4
inch, 3-strand nylon rope= 13,000 lb BS. (For the rope, you choose the WLL
that you desire; our personal choice is not to exceed 15% of the rope's BS.)

With a well put in splice, in either the back splice or the long splice will
retain approximately 90% of the rope's strength. In addition, if put in
properly, the strands are unlaid, allowing them to not only lay flatter, but
also allows the individual yarns to go around this small radius without fiber
damage.

In fact, let's do the math- the smallest radius that a yarn/strand/rope should
go around, on a fixed point terminus, is 3x the fiber's diameter. So take a
yarn of less than 1/8 inch in diameter and wrap it around a 3/8 inch chain
link and the fibers undergo no damage in use. As additional strands are
brought through the chain's link, this radius increases, giving even more
protection from fiber damage occuring due to too small of a radius.

But in case you missed it, I'll repeat it: it is of considerable importance to
unlay the rope so that the individual strands, or even yarns, can lay as flat
as possible against the radius below them.

The cons: the back splice, if done as most books suggest, even the splices put
in at the factory, often hang up in the wildcat. So when I put in a
rope-to-chain splice I'll do one of two things. One, use the long splice
instead, keeping the splice around the chain's link loose; or, follow the
directions that New England Ropes promotes for a rope-to-chain back splice-
keep the splice loose around the chain's link and use less tucks. I find that
they both work well.

_______________________________________
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Old 07-30-2010, 02:55 PM   #58
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

A couple of questions.
Long splice. it is my understanding that a long splice is used to splice two lines together by weaving or tucking the yarns into each other. Forming a thickend braid.
It is not just a long splice.
So I am not sure what he is talking about.
Second. How do you do a splice without unlaying the rope. Not possible
Also he refers to the whippings or lashings. Not sure about his use of the termenology as a whipping is at the end of the rope to keep the yarns from unlaying and a lashing is a form of knot. Generally used to fasten two or more things together with rope. The only whippings are at the ends of the three strand rode

I would think that a loose turn thru the chain would promote fraying rather than extending the life of the splice.

I have never seen a cleat lash come undone as the line tightens down on itself. The same principal comes into play with the rope in the chain splice. Sort of like the MythBusters deal about the phone books. Friction of one line on another

I do agree that it may bring up more muck.

SD
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Old 07-30-2010, 04:15 PM   #59
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:

A couple of questions.

You'd need to address those directly to Rudy.* If you are a member of the T&T list (you can join at http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/lis...and-trawlering ) you can post your questions as a reply to Rudy's post and I'm sure he will answer.

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