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Old 07-21-2010, 10:09 PM   #21
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
Anode didn't write that * * ... Alain Hylas wrote that * * * ..




I don't think it's silly or dumb. He's simply saying your not getting what you think your'e getting.

I wasn't trying to imply that Anode wrote it.** And based on what Hylas is saying, I think it's dumb.* I'm not disputing the fact that as the wind picks up the catenary will start to come out of the chain and you start losing the advantage the catenary gives you.

What I'm disputing is Hylas' implication that this is a disadvantage that you get with all-chain that you DON'T get with nylon-chain.* This is the part I think is a dumb statment, or at least a dumb implication.* If the wind is strong enough to start pulling the catenary out of all-chain, what the hell does anyone think is going to happen with nylon?* By the time the catenary starts getting pulled out of chain, a nylon rode will be straight and will already have greately increased the angle of pull on the anchor thus encouraging it to unset.

I'm not talking about shock absorbing here, I'm talking about the angle of pull on the anchor, which is what Hylas is talking about in that part of his article.* You're going to start pulling up on the anchor shank a lot sooner with nylon than you are with chain simply because chain's heavy and nylon isn't.

I'm also not saying that all-chain is always better than nylon.* It depends on the anchoring situation, the boat, the bottom, the wind, what the individual boater is most comfortable with, and so on.

The question raised earlier in this discussion was if these splices in which strands of a line are threaded down*through the links of a chain are strong enough for the job.* My position is simply that I feel that anything that compromises the strength and integrigty of an anchor rode is a Bad Idea, whether that rode is chain, nylon, or braided horsehair.* Since it seems to me--- and I could be wrong--- that the splice-through-the-chain links is not as strong as a splice-behind-a-thimble, my preference were I using a combination rode would be to use the thimble-shackle method of attaching the nylon to the chain even though I might have to come up with a slightly less-than-convenient way to get the connection past the windlass.

Now the chain-line splice illustrated in Capn Chuck's post makes a lot more sense to me as it is*in essence doing the same thing as the splice-behind-a-thimble setup does, only without the thimble. But the splice where the strands of line are all lined up with the chain and nothing is really going back on itself seems to me to be a less-than-ideal arrangment.* You line everything up the same direction and then pull on it.* Don't think I'd trust that one.......

-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 21st of July 2010 10:18:51 PM
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:47 AM   #22
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

If the wind is strong enough to start pulling the catenary out of all-chain, what the hell does anyone think is going to happen with nylon? By the time the catenary starts getting pulled out of chain, a nylon rode will be straight and will already have greately increased the angle of pull on the anchor thus encouraging it to unset.

I'm not talking about shock absorbing here, I'm talking about the angle of pull on the anchor,

The breaking , and stretching (shock absorbing ability) of nylon far excedes chain.

When the usual (3/8) chain is bar tight , say 1500-4000lbs of pull, the usual nylon will still be able to stretch in the wave impacts.

For true deep water survival anchoring the recommendation is 50% chain and 50% nylon .
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:01 AM   #23
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

But those of us who use all chain rode would normally, in anything other than calm conditions with very favourable forecast, have a long nylon snubber to take the wave shocks.....just saving Marin some typing time....

"I'm seriously thinking about getting yet another anchor * * .. a Fortress."Eric

Eric, for heavens sake man - you only just bought a Manson Supreme didn't you - you haven't lost it already....surely....?


-- Edited by Peter B on Thursday 22nd of July 2010 06:07:42 AM
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:23 AM   #24
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Peter B, FF and Marin,See new thread * * .. Anchoring * .. chain v/s nylon line


skipperdude,
About the splice * * ..when the wildcat splice is used a specific size chain and line must be used to permit the line passing gracefully through the wildcat grove * * ..I assume. Lets say one uses 3/8" chain. A specific size nylon line must be employed to make the connection. Is that a true statement? The only way the splice in the combination rode would be acceptable is if the line and the chain had the same working load rating. If the load rating is not the same, and I doubt that it is, then this combo rode w wildcat splice is not something a good yachtsman could recommend.


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Old 07-22-2010, 09:37 AM   #25
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Eric,
Not sure. A little help here.
What is the breaking strength of as you say a 3/8" chain?
on the same, the equivilant breaking on what 3 strand nylon.
I'm guessing here but I would say a chain would be stronger or as strong as it's weakest length.
As I noticed on my friends boat for whome I did the splice. the rode was 5/8" the chain looked to be about 3/8" They both fit the gypsy. It was when the back splice came to the the chain it would bounce and hang up. With the in the chain splice it passed straight thru.
So I don't believe the working load really matters as long as both fit the gypsy.

Did a google. They both look pretty close.* chain 11000* line 12200.
*
SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Thursday 22nd of July 2010 09:44:16 AM
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:16 AM   #26
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

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skipperdude wrote:

What is the breaking strength of as you say a 3/8" chain?
on the same, the equivilant breaking on what 3 strand nylon.
*
Here is what I found in an admittedly quick internet search.* Breaking strength of*3/8" BBB chain, 11,000 pounds.* Breaking strength of 3/8" nylon anchor line, 4,400 pounds.* Breaking strength of 1/2" nylon anchor line, 5,700 pounds.* Breaking strength of 5/8" nylon anchor line, 10,400 pounds.

*
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Old 07-23-2010, 04:10 AM   #27
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

The storm anchor is going to stink at overnight anchoring as the nylon usually takes 10% of its rated load to 25% to stretch well.

So only catinary chain lifting in modest , under 20K or so, overnight will be aviliable for snubbing.

A Bow eye with 3/8 20-30ft,nylon would need to be lashed to the 5/8 to the best ride.
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Old 07-24-2010, 12:05 PM   #28
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

OK guys,Wer'e getting there but still a ways off.
Exactly what size and type of chain is used w exactly what size and type of nylon line in this gypsy friendly splice? And then what are the working loads of each?


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Old 07-24-2010, 01:38 PM   #29
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

There are so many combinations it might be easiest to check out what folks like Defender sell.* I believe the objective is to match the breaking strengths as close as possible and still work in the gypsy.
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?...3390&id=784124
Here they are marrying a 9/16 8 plait rope to 5/16 HD chain.
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Old 07-26-2010, 08:44 AM   #30
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Chip,
The Idea was to have a gypsy friendly splice that would allow the rode to transition smoothly over the bow roller as well as thru the gypsy.
The one you linked to still has that big lump where the splice is.
You cant get around it.
As it is just an end splice and that doubles the thickness of the line.

The only way to make the transition is to brade it into the chain.

SD
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:45 AM   #31
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

JD,
The question started beacuse of a vertical windlass. The rode went around the gypsy 3/4 of a turn and then down.
With the splice shown on all three of the links you posted the thickness of the splice was to great for the chain*to transition*around and down thru the haws*pipe.
*I tried the California finish on the splice where the tucks are reduced by leaving one strand out tucking*the last two and then skipping one and then the last strand tucked. This produces a tapered finish.
*Still no good.
The only splice to work was the line braded directely into the chain.*
this left the chain and rope more similar in size. The only question was longevity. Would the gypsy abrade the splice *Prompting a re-splice.

SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Monday 26th of July 2010 10:45:49 AM
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Old 07-26-2010, 02:13 PM   #32
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

SD,

The Maxwell I referred to does wrap the line 2/3rds around the Gypsy.* But it then drops out the bottom and right into the locker.* I would not have thought that the distance from the Gypsy to the Hawse pipe would have that much of an effect.* Most Hawse pipes are quite large aren't they?

But you know if it worked or not.* Sorry for the misinform.
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Old 07-26-2010, 02:26 PM   #33
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Not that.
The double thickness of the rope splice would not bend around the circumfrence of the gypsy. To thick.

SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Monday 26th of July 2010 02:26:50 PM
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:08 PM   #34
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Sorry to say so but this looks like a sorta kinda maybe iffy thing but it looks like the industry is fully set up for this gypsy friendly rope/splice system so there must be a way to make it work well or sombody's wide open for the legal system to fall on them. Are there any specs that declare what percentage of strength is lost to the line w the splice? I watched JD's links (thanks JD) and the splice looks much larger than the rope/line but of course it would. I just don't see how this could work well. It should be more justified if one was to use large/cheap chain and an oversized line but then there wouldn't be much (if anything) to be gained over smaller high strength all chain rode. I always thought an all chain rode was hundreds of pounds even for my size boat but come to find out the cost of chain is the heavy part. I think Marin dosn't like the splice idea for much the same reasons that I don't. But since I'm not so keen on the all chain rode I sorta hope this stands the test of time and that I myself can learn to make the splice and choose the chain and line correctly.

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Old 07-26-2010, 08:44 PM   #35
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Gents,

If you watch the film (as*Eric has) the guy states in the very beginning that it is a very soft line.*You can see it doesn't even hold a twist.*That may be the key.* I have never had a problem with mine going around the gypsy.* It was quite pliable.* So maybe the type of line being used is the problem.*


West Marine will give you a couple of feet of several types of line to experiment with.

As far as the wear factor I think you just have to inspect it often until you get a feel as to how long before you need to redo it.

-- Edited by JD on Monday 26th of July 2010 08:45:37 PM
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:39 PM   #36
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

I have a strange anchor line sold by Fisheries Supply called Brait * * ..made by Yale. It's 5/8" w a BL of 12000lbs. It's a real loose weave and very soft line. It lays in a box a bit like chain and one can put much more of the stuff in a box than 3 strand or even braided line. You can make a large pile of the stuff as it comes over the bow and then run it out fast without a hitch. Never tangles up and doesn't hockle. Brait is "tuck spliced by hand to cordage industry standards" FS says. It looks like the stuff in the video is similar. But what about all this talk about splicing regular 3 strand?Bear w me guys as I've never had a winch. It stands to reason the gypsy takes the chain w one link flat in a depression that it fits into it's OD. Then the next link would be vertical and obviously require a slot or grove to receive it so at least the flat links will stay snug in their depression and grip the chain. To make a gypsy able to pass and grip a line this slot or grove for the vertical links is made wider and a bit V shaped to grip the line and pull it aboard. Is this how it is done???


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Old 07-27-2010, 07:08 AM   #37
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:To make a gypsy able to pass and grip a line this slot or grove for the vertical links is made wider and a bit V shaped to grip the line and pull it aboard. Is this how it is done???
Eric
I think*the rope is gripped by the V as you say just like a fan belt.* Keep in mind it it isn't going to drag the boat up to the anchor.* But then again you are not suppose to drag the boat to the anchor with the windlass even if it is all chain.*

The Admiral drives forward by hands signals, a few feet at a time,*very slowly and I brought up the tackle on the bow.* I have had no problems to speak of.* The rode I had was not quite as limp as what you describe so the hardest thing for me was to make sure the line laid in the locker evenly ( the locker door was*open ) and that the chain didn't mound up under the windlass because the locker was shallow.* I just kept a short piece of broom handle to knock the mound down and then continued with all*100' of 5/16".

*

-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 27th of July 2010 07:09:28 AM
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Old 07-27-2010, 11:57 AM   #38
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:


Bear w me guys as I've never had a winch. It stands to reason the gypsy takes the chain w one link flat in a depression that it fits into it's OD. Then the next link would be vertical and obviously require a slot or grove to receive it so at least the flat links will stay snug in their depression and grip the chain.
You are correct.


*
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:33 PM   #39
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Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

Welcome Back Marin,I'm Ga Ga over your winch. And what a good picture. Thanks for the feedback too. It seems to me that even when the splice works the anchor line must take a significant beating being pinched hard enough to lift heavy anchor ground tackle. Is that 3/8 chain you're using? Do you know the WL and BL of 1/2" 3 strand?
Here is a Practical Sailor Test you may find interesting.
www.manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/galvray.htm
It looks like Manson has built a better Bruce.
Sorry my link insert probably didn't go well.
Youv'e got to click on the "Click Here" in bold type when you get to the Manson page.


Eric


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Tuesday 27th of July 2010 12:37:26 PM
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Old 07-27-2010, 01:10 PM   #40
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RE: Anchor Rode to Chain Splice

IMO Lofrans makes the best windlass on the market. Chuck
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