Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-08-2019, 09:58 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 162
Anatomy of a Capsize (Steve Dashew video)

9-min YouTube video from SetSail/Dashew of a 50-ish foot fishing trawler. Fast forward to 4:30 to see analysis on why the trawler capsized - theory is it 'tripped' over itself as seas changed direction due to passage of cold front. Has some tips on staying upright.

https://youtu.be/8l00sJFIYkA
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 10:34 AM   #2
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,740
Greetings,
Mr. mv. Chilling. I don't even like watching that sort of stuff. Thank the meteorologists for accurate weather predictions. BIG difference between a bad prediction and a bad decision. A word to "newbies". When in doubt, don't go out.

On occasion when I'm talking to a non boater and mention the size of our vessel, they often say "Wow. I betcha that boat can take big waves". My reply is I never want to see big waves.


We've delayed a Gulf Stream crossing a couple of times waiting on more acceptable (IMO) weather. So far, so good.
__________________

__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 10:47 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
gsholz's Avatar
 
City: PDX
Country: Northwest
Vessel Name: Lady Anne
Vessel Model: GB 52 Europa
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 259
It is educational. That was a seaworthy fishing boat will low center of gravity. But running downwind in breaking seas opens you up to broaching. Once the big rudder is in white water, you have no control. Slowly heading into the waves might have been a better tactic but that would get them further out vs back home. Things can go from manageable to capsized in a blink of an eye.
gsholz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 11:41 AM   #4
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct/Punta Gorda, Fl
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Atlas Pompano 23
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,836
It was interesting to note the limit of positive stability for that boat. During an earlier wave that didn't capsize the boat, Dashew says that it had just about reached its limit. Looked to be about 45 degrees.

Contrast that with sailboats where 120-145 degrees is the norm. Makes you wonder if any trawler is safe for an extended blue water cruise.

David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 12:01 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
City: Raymond NH
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Mischief Managed II
Vessel Model: 1992 Tollycraft 44 CPMY
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
It was interesting to note the limit of positive stability for that boat. During an earlier wave that didn't capsize the boat, Dashew says that it had just about reached its limit. Looked to be about 45 degrees.

Contrast that with sailboats where 120-145 degrees is the norm. Makes you wonder if any trawler is safe for an extended blue water cruise.

David

Dashew (FPB) Trawlers are considered quite safe for extended blue water cruising.
Mischief Managed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 12:08 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Thank the meteorologists for accurate weather predictions. BIG difference between a bad prediction and a bad decision.
Yes, do all you can to stay out of dangerous seas. But for long distance cruisers, the possibility of landing in difficult situations increases. My guess is the captain/crew of that fishing trawler had decent weather information, it just got way worse than expected or there was a mechanical failure (had to be a reason the vessel where the camera was located was standing by). We are not immune to either, and not as well equipped to deal with consequences as a commercial fisherman. Something to think about.....
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 01:25 PM   #7
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct/Punta Gorda, Fl
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Atlas Pompano 23
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,836
Dashew's FPB trawlers are safe because their angle of vanishing stability is 120 degrees or more. He considers 120 degrees to be the minimum for an offshore boat, a value that few maybe none of the typical blue water trawlers meet. For example a Nordhavn meeting CE Catagory A Ocean, only achieves a 100 degree value. Still pretty good relative to the trawler in that film.



Another reason that his boats are safe is that they can get out of the way of most storms. You need to have communications ability (to know where the storm is and is going) and the speed to get out of the way.



David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 01:49 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Blissboat's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville Beach, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Shallow Minded
Vessel Model: Shoal Cat
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 470
Interesting footage, but didn't that fishing trawler look unnaturally tender right from the opening frame? She never seemed to overcome a slight port list, no matter what heading she steered. Maybe it was the wind pressure on all that trawl gear aloft. Speaking of which, the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.

In any case, keep seas like that far away from me!
__________________
“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.”
― Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
Blissboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 02:19 PM   #9
Guru
 
Seevee's Avatar
 
City: st pete
Country: usa
Vessel Model: 400 Mainship
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,186
Interesting thread....


First, I have zero desire to be a blue water boater, but can certainly appreciate the planning and skills that would go into this. One would have to keep up with the weather patterns and do a good job of avoidance.



The comment about the waves switching as the front passed.... I doubt that one could recognize the actual passage quick enough to make immediate boating decisions. Even the fast ones don't more that fast, however, one can notice as the winds change slowing. However, with front passages, there are often gusts and fluctuating winds which can be challenging.
__________________
Seevee
Seevee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 08:25 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
lipets's Avatar
 
City: FL
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Benneteau Swift 42
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blissboat View Post
the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.

Could have lowered a lot of rigging on deck perhaps
lipets is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 08:28 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
lipets's Avatar
 
City: FL
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Benneteau Swift 42
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blissboat View Post
the weight of that gear raised her center of gravity, making her considerably more tender than she would have been with those booms rigged out.

Could have lowered a lot of rigging on deck perhaps


I was in a 35' sailboat racing on Long Island sound wind about 40knots
downwind 5-8' waves all was well surfing down the waves.


Until the tiller snapped, we broached mast in the water, cut the halyards dropping the sails, boat popped right back up.


Couldn't happen without a big heavy keel
lipets is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 08:46 PM   #12
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,819
The vessel appeared to be in trouble, which is probably why the other vessel was shadowing it. Was it a loose hatch and flooding which caused the list to port? Damaged rudder or steering system which reduced response time? Reduced power in the main engine limiting control?

Would be interesting if there was a link to an official report. I'll bet there were two or more contributing factors, besides the storm, which caused the sinking.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 09:33 PM   #13
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 8,433
That purse seiner looks a lot like the boats that have traditionally been home based in my home port, Gig Harbor.

I’ve seen the footage before, but not with the commentary. It was informative. I too think that there was a tendency to list to port. Easily could be the wind but I wonder if their catch in the hold may have shifted as well?

Is it possible they also had trouble with their engine giving them reduced power? That would limit their rudder effectiveness with those following waves.

When I stupidly got caught out in a gale with wind and tide going opposite directions in Admiralty Inlet, I decided to not turn down wide and deal with aft quartering seas but turned upwind to accept the quartering seas on the bow. It made for a very long and rough time before I could get into a lea area, but I felt more comfortable having my rudder be more effective when it counts.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 09:52 PM   #14
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,995
I actually thought the boat was riding fine up until that last frame ..

I wasn't really paying close attention cuz it was riding pretty well ..

I mean I've been out there when it's way worse than that on some vessels....... to make any assumptions on whether or not that boat should have remained upright is only a guess .

The rolling she was doing throughout the video before she rolled over did not suggest to me she was in any sort of trouble.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 11:12 PM   #15
Guru
 
78puget-trawler's Avatar
 
City: LaConner
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 34' CHB
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,104
As Dave notes, its a seiner,, a "Kodiak" seiner I believe, not a trawler. These boats don't draw much water.
A couple of things. I have seen the footage many times and have spent time in that area on larger boats, tugs with tows. Noted above, too much weight up high, put the block on deck and lash it down, lower the boom, lash it down. Any weight that can be moved down, move it. He could have ditched the seine skiff on the stern, that's a lot of weight there and he might have had quicker, less sluggish return from each roll.


Should have turned into the sea and hove to. He would have rode it out safely in all likelihood. That's pretty snotty weather for a relatively small boat running before it.
78puget-trawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2019, 02:24 PM   #16
Member
 
Capn_Q's Avatar
 
City: Richmond, Ca
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Iris
Vessel Model: Sea Ranger 46
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 17
Seiner, not a trawler. Almost happened to me in '98

As mentioned above, this is a purse seiner, not a trawler. In essence, it lacks a keel on which to catch the seine, making the aft hull flat and prone to being pushed around. I'm surprised the video does not point out that their deck-loaded skiff had shifted, upsetting the balance of the boat to port. This is a common heavy weather and traveling tactic to reduce drag.


I fished out of Kodiak on a number of seiners in the 90's. One, the F/V Evanick, was a 50' LeClerq. I had been a deckhand and skiffman for four years, and in '98 was set to take control as my Skipper, Carl Van Valkenberg (RIP) was having a baby with his new wife. Two weeks before I was to arrive, Carl was headed to Bristol Bay for herring. Off Foggy Cape, they experienced 8' confused seas, which also caused the skiff to shift on deck. They broached just like the boat in this video, but the nearest boat was 8 miles away. No one was recovered and the boat was scuttled by the CG. If I had not been wrapping up a college semester, I would have been aboard. That was my last year fishing, as I found a berth on Carl's best friends boat.
Capn_Q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2019, 05:35 PM   #17
Member
 
City: Whitehouse Ohio
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 2005 Mainship 34 Trawler
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 6
Don't know a lot about blue water fishing boats but it appeared that boat was having steering or power issues. Likely why it was being shadowed by the vessel that took the video. And by the comments from the men taking the video, they didn't seem too surprised when the boat broached. Through it all it seemed odd that they would continue to try to run before the wind, unless they had no choice due to some issue. It seemed like they tried a couple of times to turn upwind but couldn't seem to get it done.
__________________
-------------------
Kevin Decker
Overserved66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2019, 05:54 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Blissboat's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville Beach, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Shallow Minded
Vessel Model: Shoal Cat
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn_Q View Post
As mentioned above, this is a purse seiner, not a trawler. In essence, it lacks a keel on which to catch the seine, making the aft hull flat and prone to being pushed around. I'm surprised the video does not point out that their deck-loaded skiff had shifted, upsetting the balance of the boat to port. This is a common heavy weather and traveling tactic to reduce drag.


I fished out of Kodiak on a number of seiners in the 90's. One, the F/V Evanick, was a 50' LeClerq. I had been a deckhand and skiffman for four years, and in '98 was set to take control as my Skipper, Carl Van Valkenberg (RIP) was having a baby with his new wife. Two weeks before I was to arrive, Carl was headed to Bristol Bay for herring. Off Foggy Cape, they experienced 8' confused seas, which also caused the skiff to shift on deck. They broached just like the boat in this video, but the nearest boat was 8 miles away. No one was recovered and the boat was scuttled by the CG. If I had not been wrapping up a college semester, I would have been aboard. That was my last year fishing, as I found a berth on Carl's best friends boat.
Cap'n Q shares helpful info about this boat and its practices. I gather that he thinks the weight of the skiff accounts for that slight but persistent port list. Given that the skiff was deck-loaded to reduce drag while traveling, I wonder whether the crew might have considered pushing it off the stern, both to reduce weight on deck and to perhaps act as a drogue? Admittedly, wrangling the skiff over the side in those conditions would have been dangerous. Plus, the skipper might have feared risking loss of the skiff if it flooded and sank. On the other hand, I have towed a skiff in rotten conditions, before swells that caused it to surf up and ram the transom or try to overtake the bigger boat. Half expected to lose the damn thing, but was amazed at how well it stood up, hour after hour.

One more thing I'm curious about is why, in such heavy seas and conditions of tender stability, the crew chose not to rig-out the booms. I have no idea whether a purse seiner would employ paravanes, but with them or without, it seems intuitive that reducing weight aloft might have improved things. Was there concern about a boom digging into a swell?
__________________
“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.”
― Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
Blissboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2019, 10:26 PM   #19
Guru
 
City: Canaveral
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
Perhaps it’s just the skeptic in me, but I’m not convinced about the conclusions being drawn. I think of this as more of a marketing video. There’s probably a lot that can be learned by this incident, but we really have no true information here. A copy of the detailed CG investigation would be helpful.
makobuilders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2019, 01:57 AM   #20
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,601
Interesting, sad video. Descriptions at end are well put.

That said, I have to ask... was that boat some how carrying too heavy a load on port side? Although waves seemed to be often pushing the boat to a port list; it also seems the boat was tending to "self" list too much to port.

In confused seas like that even a relatively small maladjustment of trim weight can make a big difference to COG and therefore remaining upright.
__________________

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×