Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-06-2014, 10:15 AM   #21
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaltimoreLurker View Post
A "real" boat? A square rigger, right? None of this newfangled, johnny-come-lately fore-and-aft rigged nonsense. It's just a fad.

I hope I die before I get old.
Do you think that today's AC racing rigs are a "boat"? Is a wind surfer rig a boat? Would either ever be copied in actual design to be a "boat".

Funny, but, Truly Correct "Boat" Definition: "Hole in the water (usually surrounded by wood, fiberglass, or metal) into which one pours money" AC racing rigs and wind surfers (both virtually surfboards with sails) do not meet the age old requirement of "hole in the water" to actually be classified as a "boat"... for carrying passengers and equipment or goods.

I have no problem with high tech design advances to produce enormous surfboard like, wind powered, surface-skimming devices for racing accomplishments.

I simply do not feel they at all meet the criteria of being a Real "BOAT"!

Soooo... at AC races you are no longer watching "Boat-Races"; you are watching high tech wind powered surfboard races.

Jus Sayen!
__________________
Advertisement

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 10:37 AM   #22
Curmudgeon
 
BaltimoreLurker's Avatar
 
City: Stoney Creek, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moon Dance
Vessel Model: 1974 34' Marine Trader Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Do you think that today's AC racing rigs are a "boat"? Is a wind surfer rig a boat? Would either ever be copied in actual design to be a "boat".

Funny, but, Truly Correct "Boat" Definition: "Hole in the water (usually surrounded by wood, fiberglass, or metal) into which one pours money" AC racing rigs and wind surfers (both virtually surfboards with sails) do not meet the age old requirement of "hole in the water" to actually be classified as a "boat"... for carrying passengers and equipment or goods.

I have no problem with high tech design advances to produce enormous surfboard like, wind powered, surface-skimming devices for racing accomplishments.

I simply do not feel they at all meet the criteria of being a Real "BOAT"!

Soooo... at AC races you are no longer watching "Boat-Races"; you are watching high tech wind powered surfboard races.

Jus Sayen!
What are your thoughts on those nasty, smoky, coal burning ironclads?

How about an F22 Raptor? Is that an airplane? No propeller, stubby wings.

Just yanking' y'all's chain. I know what you're saying. But, hey, that's progress. There's still vintage racing for you Luddites.

__________________

BaltimoreLurker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 11:10 AM   #23
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaltimoreLurker View Post
What are your thoughts on those nasty, smoky, coal burning ironclads?

How about an F22 Raptor? Is that an airplane? No propeller, stubby wings.

Just yanking' y'all's chain. I know what you're saying. But, hey, that's progress. There's still vintage racing for you Luddites.
Personally... I like 12 gauge double barrel or semi auto shot guns. 357 mag hand guns, And, 1960's big block muscle cars. I also like early model, bad assss, 3/4 or 1 ton, gas powered, 4WD, standard shift, high performance, long bed - pick up trucks. Adore twin screw, self contained, planing hull pleasure boats... little speed boats are a kick too! I love to lift/workout with heavy free weights and occasionally I get back in the ring for sparring with buddies or on the mats for some good ol' Greco Wrestling. Drink coffee by the gallon. Eat as I please! Would love it if some thug(s) tried to roust me or screw with people I love... boy, would I enjoy teaching he or them a lesson or three! Bad things can happen quickly, when necessary.

Got the picture? I'm an educated 60 + year old NY street fighter that has lived (and is still living) life on my terms. I love to create and work. I also love to relax, and, pleasure boating is my preferred form of relaxation.

To stay on point for this thread: I love nearly all type boats and boating. I do not love America's Cup wind powered surfboards - they simply are not boats!

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 11:26 AM   #24
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Oracle and others contesting the Cup well know the hassles of doing business in CA. Anybody hear of longshoreman labor issues that have been going on for about 100 years there? Or the politicians making bad press about all "these rich guys." Not wanting to be repeated by smart team owners and Ellison heard this loud and clear.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 01:05 PM   #25
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
This is where they lose me too. I'm just not interested in contests of money and ego.
So you have never been a fan of AC racing?
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 02:22 PM   #26
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
So you have never been a fan of AC racing?
Yes for all those not interested in racing of money and ego, there goes Formula One as well.

If I was an avid sailor, I'm sure the America's Cup would interest me. I am not, however, so can't really feel myself on the boat, at the helm, or in the other roles. I think the appeal to the masses is missing. Now the comeback this year probably did attract some non sailors. Ted Turner attracted everyone rooting for the outsider, the underdog. A bit like the Jamaican bobsled team.

Saying it's all about money is something we can say to one degree about all sports. The Olympics are watched and they're just as much about money. We say we're against wealthy owners like the NFL and yet the popularity increases and they continue to get more stadiums built with public funds. In reality I didn't grow up an America's Cup fan and it just never got my attention. I did grow up watching other sports. It's certainly Ellison's right to go for the money, but equally the right of San Francisco and San Diego to say, "no." Not like Bermuda was forced. Choices made. And again much like other sports, they get someone to pay because if not they know they'll go elsewhere.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 03:45 PM   #27
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,179
Get over it, guys! The days of Luddite yacht racing in the America's Cup Races are gone. Gone is the canvas sail and the monohull vessel. TBH, I never understood traditional sailing races. You take one of the slowest vehicles known to man and put them side-by-side in a "race". Booooring! Kiteboard races would be more fun to watch.



Make 'em go 50 mph at the risk of pitchpoling at any moment and now you have something to watch! I thought the 2014 AC races were the most exciting ever and the OTUSA comeback is one for the record books. With today's video technology, the best seat is the one in front of a HDTV, so I guess holding the race in Bermuda is of little import to me. But I'll be watching the big screen TV closely as the races progress.
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 05:50 PM   #28
Guru
 
Rogerh's Avatar
 
City: Niceville, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: At Last
Vessel Model: 1990 Jefferson 52 Marquessa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 665
I agree with Flywright. For those that are against fast catamarans, have you ever sailed on one? Maybe you have, I don't know. But for me the feel of going 30 knots on the water without the sound of engines is a total rush and very much a challenge. It is in my opinion just progress of the sport of sailing. As far as the money for AC, same for all sports as Flywright says. Much of what is being learned in these boats are being picked up into some of the new designs of the modern racer cruisers.
I totally enjoyed the last AC and found the new boats and format refreshing and unbelievably exciting.
Rogerh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 11:48 PM   #29
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
BandB mentioned Formula one as a comparison, and I have to agree. F1 cars are like no other car (alluding to Art's comments here), yet they are the leading edge of car manufacturing technology, without which many of todays safety, road-holding, safety, efficiency, and performance features would not have filtered down to our private vehicles. Todays F1 cars are actually going green, downsizing to 1600cc engines from 3000cc V8s, just this year, (now just completed), but using electric energy recovery systems, turbocharging, etc, they are as fast as last years cars, but quieter and much more economical.

But if you are not interested in the technical aspects like some of us clearly are, (my sons and I have always followed F1), then I understand the lack of interest. I just love it when form follows function, and things just work...

I see the AC boats as similar issue. Leading edge tech, much of which as and some has already filtered down to todays customers vessels. Carbon fibre for strength and lightness, for yachts the idea of sails more like plane wings that can have their aspect ratio and airfoil curves/surfaces etc altered to suit conditions. The result is exciting speed - what's not to like? - the cost is their problem - sadly the reason the Australian entry dived in the end, however, my fellow Kiwis will be baarck..! (sorry - Arnieism). Can't wait for Bermuda - like Al, I'll be in front of the HDTV…bring it on..!
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 11:57 PM   #30
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Two 1/2 years ago I traveled to Auckland. While there I was able to catch the Volvo Ocean Racing series pit stop, what a great thing to see as leading edge boats and crew performed their magic. The work, energy and brilliance that goes into that set of races and the latest AC is just plain marvelous.

Sure, those evil rich guys make it happen, but what a happening it is.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 01:03 AM   #31
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Sure, those evil rich guys make it happen, but what a happening it is.

__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 09:48 AM   #32
Curmudgeon
 
BaltimoreLurker's Avatar
 
City: Stoney Creek, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moon Dance
Vessel Model: 1974 34' Marine Trader Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerh View Post
For those that are against fast catamarans, have you ever sailed on one?
I sailed and (Wednesday Night Club) raced mono-hulls for a decade. A few years ago I took a little Hobie type cat out while at a resort in Jamaica. Holy moly, was that a blast! Just a hint of a breeze and that thing took off like a scalded dog.

I understand the romance, grace and beauty of the mono-hulls. But this is racing. And I thought the last AC was far and away the most exciting I have ever seen. I would give my left ... OK, maybe not, but I'd love to take a few turns around the course on those AC72's.
BaltimoreLurker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 09:48 AM   #33
Guru
 
Scary's Avatar
 
City: Walnut Grove Ca
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cary'D Away
Vessel Model: Hatteras 48 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 884
It's all about multimedia Virtual anything for the couch potatoes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jungpeter View Post
As a long-time former competitor in international sailing with and against the Conners, Turners, Norths, etc of the world, I can credibly state that in my opinion the current rendition of the America's Cup is no longer an event for and about "sailing", but simply a medium for yet another "adventure" entertainment event for the public. It could as easily be conducted in kite boards, sailplanes, race cars, etc.

So my response to the current announcement that Bermuda will host the 2017 Americas Cup is BFD.

Pete
Amen Brother
Scary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 10:58 AM   #34
Guru
 
Scary's Avatar
 
City: Walnut Grove Ca
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cary'D Away
Vessel Model: Hatteras 48 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 884
I raced Hobie Cats for 20 years

I have to say this for for the last Americas cup. The multimedia format show that Ellison put on made sail boat racing accessible to more people than ever before. Watching grass grow was the common description of monohull racing. Match racing in particular is boring to all but a few diehard's. The Americas cup and big boats racing has always been about big egos and wallets to match. Larry made it exciting to watch and easy to understand. The fact is, San Francisco was a financial flop. The city made it near impossible to put on and the turn out was dismal. Why would you want to come back?
Having raced cats I could feel the raw acceleration and the ragged edge these boat were raced at. If you haven't felt 30 plus knots in open ocean on a Hobie 18 or Miracle you have no idea of the gunfighter reflexes needed to sail these incredible boats. I can only imagine what sailing a AC 72 would be like. The best way to see this event was probably in front of your big screen TV. With lay lines and overview of the course and on boat live video, it brought sailboat racing to the non sail boat racer.
I attended two days of AC 72 racing and one day on the water watching the 40's race. The forties racing around the buoy's was in my opinion the best racing, the whole fleet on the course at once, the leeward mark incredible. I have never liked match racing, too boring for me. Especially in keel boats.
Small boat racing has been dying for years. The fleets are small by comparison with the 70's and 80's. Most of the club races are in old boring plastic sail boats that creep around the course at speeds where a tenth of a knot is a big deal and the knot meter rarely reaches 8 knots. I provided the committee boat the Hobie North Americans about 6 years ago, it looked like a division race of the 80's. The youth has moved on to sail boards and kites and video games. Hopefully these new AC boats and media attention create interest in racing sail boats again. This comes from a guy that has owned and or raced a bunch of performance sail boats. Laser, Tasar, 505, Hobie 18, Hobie Miracle, Express 27, F24, Hobie 33. Swan 41.
Scary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 04:29 PM   #35
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
To those who have written about how boring monohull racing is, that's a valid statement from the point of view of a spectator. These days, when crowds want fast, noisy excitement--the equivalent of a video game or a movie--- watching a conventional sailboat race would indeed, be very boring.

But it's a far different story to the crews. I've not had much sailboat racing experience, but for a few seasons in the early 80s I crewed on a co-worker's racing sloop. We raced in Lake Washington and on the Sound.

And even though we were not going all that fast, to be on the boat (even slow sailboats are anything but quiet when they are being driven through the water as fast as they will go) and working the sails and figuring out strategy--- it was an all-absorbing, exciting experience for every crew member.

Racing sailboats (or anything, frankly) is really about the people doing the racing. Yes, America's Cup races in the J-boat and 12 metre days and the International Fishermen's Races in the fishing schooner days drew big crowds on shore. Sometimes huge crowds.

But that was in an age before TV coverage. If people wanted to see something that sounded exciting to them, they had to go watch it in person. But I believe the real reason they raced boats back then was for one owner or skipper or crew to see if they could beat another one. If people wanted to watch, great, but that's not why they were out there.

TV coverage of anything demands a big audience share to get the ratings which is how the rates for running commercials is determined, which is the only reason TV exists, at least in this country. It's all about money. So you make it as big and noisy and fast and dangerous a show as you can. That takes a ton of money, and so you get to where we are today with the America's Cup, Formula 1, you name it.

The broadcasters couldn't care less who wins and loses in these events. The only thing relevant to the America's Cup today is the audience share. That and how much money the event itself can rake in, be it in room rates, food sold, souvenirs, you name it. So every year, the show has to be bigger and more spectacular, which means the boats have to be faster and more dramatic and the setting has to be more photogenic. Whatever it takes to get people to watch Channel A instead of Channel B.

To the people sailing the boats, I doubt things have changed much. The technology has certainly changed, and the speeds. But I suspect that today's crews are not much or any different than the crews of the Intrepid, or the Endeavour or the Bluenose. Or the 30' racing sloop I crewed on, frankly.

Nobody came to watch the races I crewed in on Lake Washington and Puget Sound. Nobody broadcast them and nobody sponsored the boats. But I suspect that when the fleet was booming down on a mark in a stiff wind with the spinnakers drawing hard, and the sound of the water going by the hulls was so loud we had to shout to make ourselves heard, it was every bit as exciting to us on board as it is to the big-boat race crews today, and the crews of yesterday.

Do I watch the America's Cup? Hell no. Even at 50 miles an hour I can't imagine anything more boring than watching a boat race except perhaps an Indy car race where the cars go around in an oval until somebody waves a flag.

It's the same reason I have no interest in going to airshows. I love flying a plane, but I have zero interest in watching them fly. To me, flying, boating, driving, and a bunch of other activities are not things I get any pleasure out of experiencing vicariously. It's why we choose to drive a 3mph narrowboat through England rather than look out at England through the windows of a tour bus or watch a show about the place on TV.

The really sad thing, I think, about the direction so many activities are going is that they are getting so expensive for the reasons I talked about above that they are pricing themselves out of the ability for most people to experience them.

My wife used to race sports cars (SCCA). Back when she did it, all you needed was a car that was fitted out to meet the fairly minimal safety regulations of the time, and that was it. If you could afford to put gas in it, get it to the track, and keep it running, you could race.

Not so today.

The reason this is too bad that the cost of these activities--- be it car racing or sailboat racing or whatever--- is forcing more and more people to become passive spectators instead of active participants. It's slowly moving people more away from reality and closer to fantasy. And it's depriving more and more people of the ability to experience things for themselves.

Now from my selfish point of view, this is great. I would LOVE it if most of the steelhead fishermen in this state would stay home and watch TV shows about it instead of going out and cluttering up the rivers where I want to fish. And the more boaters stay home and watch documentaries and TV specials about cruising in the San Juans and BC the better, because they they won't be out there crowding up the anchorages and bays and detracting from the experience we want to have by actually taking a boat out there.

I'm being facetious (sort of) but I truly think this is were it's all headed.

If I had a choice between sitting at home and watching the America's Cup on a giant screen with 500 camera angles and graphics and interviews and stuff explaining what was going on, or being back out on Lake Washington in that 30-foot racing sloop whizzing around the course at a whopping 10 knots or whatever, I'd take being on the real boat every single time.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 04:46 PM   #36
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post

It's the same reason I have no interest in going to airshows. I love flying a plane, but I have zero interest in watching them fly. To me, flying, boating, driving, and a bunch of other activities are not things I get any pleasure out of experiencing vicariously. It's why we choose to drive a 3mph narrowboat through England rather than look out at England through the windows of a tour bus or watch a show about the place on TV.
It's like all sports, we either like them or not. To me sailing is a leisurely experience and I just don't connect with racing sailboats, nor do I with powerboats. Now, oddly, my wife and I do watch auto racing other than Formula One. I do think technology of today does make sailboat racing more enjoyable to watch on television as it affords the ability to see more. I also think the amazing comeback this year got attention of some who normally wouldn't watch either. Someone mentioned earlier it not mattering to the promoters who wins. Well, it does actually. There is great benefit to a US win or at least the US being competitive as the US television audience is the prime target.

But for those who enjoy it, I'm happy for them. And even if I watched in on television, I don't care where it is. I'd care only if Fort Lauderdale was involved and the city was going to spend money on it plus it would be disruptive to me. Only selfish reasons.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 05:42 PM   #37
Guru
 
siestakey's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota,FL/Thomasville,GA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Steppin Stone IV
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Kelly Trawler 46
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,271
Send a message via Skype™ to siestakey
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
This is where they lose me too. I'm just not interested in contests of money and ego.
X2

or would that be X3
siestakey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 07:01 PM   #38
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,179
When bligh and I met, we joked about starting a TF Trawler Race. Whoever finished the race burning the least amount of fuel wins. It would be just about as exciting as sailboat racing.
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 07:51 PM   #39
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
ISomeone mentioned earlier it not mattering to the promoters who wins. Well, it does actually. There is great benefit to a US win or at least the US being competitive as the US television audience is the prime target.
I don't know about the race promoters. But the network(s) broadcasting the event don't care other than what you said--- a US win or involvement will most likely garner a larger ratings share in the US, so they can swing a bigger bat when it comes to negotiating commercial buys. So it's all basically just about the money.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 09:48 PM   #40
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
I don't know about the race promoters. But the network(s) broadcasting the event don't care other than what you said--- a US win or involvement will most likely garner a larger ratings share in the US, so they can swing a bigger bat when it comes to negotiating commercial buys. So it's all basically just about the money.
When we say it's not about the money, it probably is. But I suspect none of us did our jobs for free. Even if you're running a business to benefit others, profits become essential if you wish to keep doing it. Those like Ellison and sports owners just operate at an entire different level beyond those most of us can even imagine.
__________________

BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012