markpierce
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(So are red sails.)
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American Tug 395, hull #12...
- Thread starter Bruce B
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CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
An argument could be made to support your statement but inasmuch as the insurance company will likely require a survey anyway it would be wise to employ one at acceptance.
Most people might agree with you. However, there have been a few who really wish they'd had one. Two types of issues.
One is major issues with hull or drives or weight or design keeping the boat from performing right and not easily corrected. Those end up as major litigation. The other is a lot of nuisance items, but they add up. We do get a survey and require correction of all deficiencies prior to acceptance of delivery. It sure helps in avoiding constant return trips for months. One builder with a good reputation and loyal following, I constantly hear of them taking up to a year to get everything right. Much is commissioning problems, especially on the west coast. We had one where there was one area that needed to be rewired and the wiring run in a better way. The builder said, "Well, just bring it in anytime for that, it won't take but two or three hours." Our response was, "Well, then you can have it done by 5:00". They ultimately agree to the next morning and we came back and took it then. You have more power prior to acceptance than you'll ever have after and a survey documents issues. I have an acquaintance who has gone back to his builder many times and the boat just spent 6 weeks there with a punch list being worked on. 90% of the issues were identifiable up front had it been surveyed.
Like all surveys, a matter of choice. Well, except for the insurance requirement mentioned, but that wasn't what influenced us.
That's how they should all be. Our new deliveries have all been trouble free, but many have a litany of issues. To the cost of a new boat, I'm just not hesitant to add the cost of a survey.
We will survey.
I even entertained hiring a surveyor to monitor the build.
I researched and found the names of two prominent surveyors in the area and spoke to them about the boat and the build. Both told me that anything beyond a delivery survey was a waste of time. They each told me that the boats were exceptionally well built.
Nice to hear!
Bruce
I even entertained hiring a surveyor to monitor the build.
I researched and found the names of two prominent surveyors in the area and spoke to them about the boat and the build. Both told me that anything beyond a delivery survey was a waste of time. They each told me that the boats were exceptionally well built.
Nice to hear!
Bruce
- Joined
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- Vessel Name
- FlyWright
- Vessel Make
- 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Who do you think would ultimately be paying the survey cost in your example?
twistedtree
Guru
I'm all in favor of a methodical inspections prior to accepting final delivery and making final payment.
After you take delivery, your leverage to get work done diminishes considerably, and the inconvenience of repairs increases considerably. I'm not suggesting that manufacturers won't or don't stand behind their products, just that things will happen a lot slower, and be a lot more inconvenient since you will want to be cruising.
Boats like all of us have are hand made, one at a time, in very low volumes, so massive opportunity for mistakes. Good QA procedures can mitigate this significantly, but different companies are more/less mature in this regard. Also, any time you make customization to a boat, it causes a builder to do something new and different, and opens up new opportunities for mistakes.
In the opening sentence I said "methodical inspection", and that can be accomplished many ways. Hiring a surveyor is probably the easiest, but I'd want to understand how they will focus differently on a new build vs a brokerage boat.
I'm also a big proponent of a buyers acceptance checklist. This stimulates the buyer to list everything in the, verify it's present, and make sure it works as it is supposed to. It's a great way to get to know your boat inside and out, to learn how everything works, and to be pro-actively involved. How deep this goes will depend on your skills and interest, but I think any amount that you are comfortable with is useful. Our checklist was 488 lines long. That, plus other inspections and sea trials generated a 185 line punch list.
With your AT 395 I expect the list will be much shorter. As I understand it, they are all built the same with some fixed list of options. This makes it much easier for a builder to control the build and quality. But I would still do the inspection in whatever form works for you - perhaps a hired survey plus your own list. I think it will be time and money well spent.
After you take delivery, your leverage to get work done diminishes considerably, and the inconvenience of repairs increases considerably. I'm not suggesting that manufacturers won't or don't stand behind their products, just that things will happen a lot slower, and be a lot more inconvenient since you will want to be cruising.
Boats like all of us have are hand made, one at a time, in very low volumes, so massive opportunity for mistakes. Good QA procedures can mitigate this significantly, but different companies are more/less mature in this regard. Also, any time you make customization to a boat, it causes a builder to do something new and different, and opens up new opportunities for mistakes.
In the opening sentence I said "methodical inspection", and that can be accomplished many ways. Hiring a surveyor is probably the easiest, but I'd want to understand how they will focus differently on a new build vs a brokerage boat.
I'm also a big proponent of a buyers acceptance checklist. This stimulates the buyer to list everything in the, verify it's present, and make sure it works as it is supposed to. It's a great way to get to know your boat inside and out, to learn how everything works, and to be pro-actively involved. How deep this goes will depend on your skills and interest, but I think any amount that you are comfortable with is useful. Our checklist was 488 lines long. That, plus other inspections and sea trials generated a 185 line punch list.
With your AT 395 I expect the list will be much shorter. As I understand it, they are all built the same with some fixed list of options. This makes it much easier for a builder to control the build and quality. But I would still do the inspection in whatever form works for you - perhaps a hired survey plus your own list. I think it will be time and money well spent.
I have spent my life and made my living critiquing mechanical systems. I good at it too!
Between the surveyor, the factory and my own desire to be thorough, I'm sure we will cover more than usual.
I understand that no survey/inspection can cover all eventualities but it is a great way to begin.
We will be using the boat on the west coast for some time before shipping it back home. The expectation is that any faults discovered will be addressed by Tomco/American Tug before it ships.
That and the extreme desire to build a problem free boat by the people at Tomco should have us in a great position. I have never experienced such concern about the reliability of a product as these guys exhibit. I can't tell you how careful they are and how concerned that the boat performs to their very high standards.
This has been a fascinating experience for me...
Bruce
I'd also bet Tomco had no problem with a purchase survey. As to the builder who did have a problem with one, I'd simply choose another builder. Sort of like with surgeon who objects to a second opinion before surgery.
The entire idea of dealing with issues for months after purchase is one I find completely unacceptable. On the day I accept it, I expect everything to be right. Dealing with constant returns for work sours the entire new boat experience. I've heard many say don't buy new for this reason. I say don't accept that and don't buy new from a builder who will put you in that position.
I'm going to post a story of someone who did short cut the process. This is with a builder with an excellent reputation but on a relatively new model. First as to their thinking on survey.
The final survey pointed out a number of items that normally would have been resolved before I took delivery. However, I made the choice to take delivery and to take the boat north immediately because 1. we had a summer full of cruising planned and only a short window for the 6 day trip north, 2. that we knew there would be more items to be found as soon as we started using the boat and 3. that the boat would have down time in the fall when we have other life plans - a perfect time for xxxxxx to get to work.
All else being equal, my normal pattern would have been to delay closing until all matters were resolved and re survey and sea trial. Then spend 2-4 weeks cruising and using the boat close to the factory where any issues that cropped up could be dealt with by factory staff on the spot. My decision not to do this is partly because of my relationships with xxxxxx staff from plant floor staff to delivery captains to the company CEO. The boat also comes with 3 year warranties on everything, so time was on my side.
Ok, then you ask, what is the list like.
Our punch list has had a total of about 160 items on it at some point - it grows each time we use the boat and shrinks when xxxxxxx or xxxxxx visit the boat. We are leaving New England on Saturday and heading to Florida. xxxxxx will have the boat for 4-6 weeks to knock off all remaining items from the list. At present there are about 60 items on the list - some big and some small. Some are missing items from delivery (a bunch of cushions that won't fit on the boat anyway), some fiberglass and gelcoat quality issues that came up in survey and after. We have oil leaks on the CATs which I opted to have done in FL, rather than up north. There are also some fit and finish issues, but those are minor.
We have dealt with some major issues relating to third party supplied equipment, but xxxxx has been very responsive to our needs. They sent technicians to repair/replace parts on two occasions and, to help our local xxxxxx dealer they sent two techs for a week to plow through a bunch of issues. Most of these bad part issues have been resolved with redesigned parts (wiper module, genset controller, xxxxxx displays).
I'm not completely happy with the standard fresh water pump and have asked for a more robust replacement. Still waiting to hear whether that's going to be on them or on me. (better be them).
Some of the issues that we have are also being experienced by other xxxxx owners. These should be long resolved by the time your build starts, but we have water pooling on the bridge and foredeck, water seeping into cabin from bridge, and water in the lazarette door.
One thing I wish we had done was to install redundant sea water pumps for AC and gyros. We lost the gyro pump twice, so I have asked for a better design. The AC pump has leaked since day 1, so I want something better there too. A second pump in each place would be really handy, especially in remote cruising areas. Oh, the two are not interchangeable, so you really need 2.
Now, that was all on a boat he loved, even with this experience, and highly recommended to us. This was an experienced buyer who knew better and had a survey but then let things pass believing ultimately they'd get corrected.
I'm not mentioned the brand or dealers because this was private communication that I don't feel it would be right for me to share. In fact, the point isn't who the builder was. They are an excellent builder.
I don't have the tolerance though for what he experienced. I would not have accepted the boat. Had I accepted it and run into the issues he ran into, it would have immediately been parked and put up for sale because by that point my hate for the boat would have been intense.
There are the occasional boats that if they were autos covered by lemon laws would be forced to be repurchased. However, there simply aren't lemon laws for boats.
Also, had a friend years ago on a 24' runabout from one of the largest sellers of boats in that range. The performance charts for that boat were 50+ mph. Every other owner I was aware of had boats that ran near or above 50 mph. His engines turned up the rpm they were supposed to. Everything looked fine to the naked eye. It rode fine although didn't plane like it should have and seemed to run at a bit of an odd angle. The maximum speed however was around 38 mph. At all rpm it ran significantly under the performance charts. The dealer who had sold it to him took the attitude that speed wasn't guaranteed and that it was within normal variances and said the manufacturer wouldn't do anything. Well, I suggested taking it to another dealer. The dealer took one ride in it and contacted the manufacturer covering the well documented history. The dealer took a few days but couldn't figure out the problem so the manufacturer authorized a replacement of the boat and made arrangements to pick it up. No one ever reported the findings back. Some time later we did notice the old dealer no longer carried the line. Two years later through an employee who had worked for the initial dealer and now moved on, he found out the history of the boat. It had been dropped by a fork lift and repaired by the dealer prior to the original sale. Whether the problem was angle or setting of the drive or more likely alteration of the deadrise we never knew but something went terribly wrong. The manufacturer was more than fair and even paid the second dealer a profit on the replacement boat. That was one of thousands of that boat sold locally and the only one with such an issue, but it never would have passed a lake trial and survey.
The entire idea of dealing with issues for months after purchase is one I find completely unacceptable. On the day I accept it, I expect everything to be right. Dealing with constant returns for work sours the entire new boat experience. I've heard many say don't buy new for this reason. I say don't accept that and don't buy new from a builder who will put you in that position.
I'm going to post a story of someone who did short cut the process. This is with a builder with an excellent reputation but on a relatively new model. First as to their thinking on survey.
The final survey pointed out a number of items that normally would have been resolved before I took delivery. However, I made the choice to take delivery and to take the boat north immediately because 1. we had a summer full of cruising planned and only a short window for the 6 day trip north, 2. that we knew there would be more items to be found as soon as we started using the boat and 3. that the boat would have down time in the fall when we have other life plans - a perfect time for xxxxxx to get to work.
All else being equal, my normal pattern would have been to delay closing until all matters were resolved and re survey and sea trial. Then spend 2-4 weeks cruising and using the boat close to the factory where any issues that cropped up could be dealt with by factory staff on the spot. My decision not to do this is partly because of my relationships with xxxxxx staff from plant floor staff to delivery captains to the company CEO. The boat also comes with 3 year warranties on everything, so time was on my side.
Ok, then you ask, what is the list like.
Our punch list has had a total of about 160 items on it at some point - it grows each time we use the boat and shrinks when xxxxxxx or xxxxxx visit the boat. We are leaving New England on Saturday and heading to Florida. xxxxxx will have the boat for 4-6 weeks to knock off all remaining items from the list. At present there are about 60 items on the list - some big and some small. Some are missing items from delivery (a bunch of cushions that won't fit on the boat anyway), some fiberglass and gelcoat quality issues that came up in survey and after. We have oil leaks on the CATs which I opted to have done in FL, rather than up north. There are also some fit and finish issues, but those are minor.
We have dealt with some major issues relating to third party supplied equipment, but xxxxx has been very responsive to our needs. They sent technicians to repair/replace parts on two occasions and, to help our local xxxxxx dealer they sent two techs for a week to plow through a bunch of issues. Most of these bad part issues have been resolved with redesigned parts (wiper module, genset controller, xxxxxx displays).
I'm not completely happy with the standard fresh water pump and have asked for a more robust replacement. Still waiting to hear whether that's going to be on them or on me. (better be them).
Some of the issues that we have are also being experienced by other xxxxx owners. These should be long resolved by the time your build starts, but we have water pooling on the bridge and foredeck, water seeping into cabin from bridge, and water in the lazarette door.
One thing I wish we had done was to install redundant sea water pumps for AC and gyros. We lost the gyro pump twice, so I have asked for a better design. The AC pump has leaked since day 1, so I want something better there too. A second pump in each place would be really handy, especially in remote cruising areas. Oh, the two are not interchangeable, so you really need 2.
Now, that was all on a boat he loved, even with this experience, and highly recommended to us. This was an experienced buyer who knew better and had a survey but then let things pass believing ultimately they'd get corrected.
I'm not mentioned the brand or dealers because this was private communication that I don't feel it would be right for me to share. In fact, the point isn't who the builder was. They are an excellent builder.
I don't have the tolerance though for what he experienced. I would not have accepted the boat. Had I accepted it and run into the issues he ran into, it would have immediately been parked and put up for sale because by that point my hate for the boat would have been intense.
There are the occasional boats that if they were autos covered by lemon laws would be forced to be repurchased. However, there simply aren't lemon laws for boats.
Also, had a friend years ago on a 24' runabout from one of the largest sellers of boats in that range. The performance charts for that boat were 50+ mph. Every other owner I was aware of had boats that ran near or above 50 mph. His engines turned up the rpm they were supposed to. Everything looked fine to the naked eye. It rode fine although didn't plane like it should have and seemed to run at a bit of an odd angle. The maximum speed however was around 38 mph. At all rpm it ran significantly under the performance charts. The dealer who had sold it to him took the attitude that speed wasn't guaranteed and that it was within normal variances and said the manufacturer wouldn't do anything. Well, I suggested taking it to another dealer. The dealer took one ride in it and contacted the manufacturer covering the well documented history. The dealer took a few days but couldn't figure out the problem so the manufacturer authorized a replacement of the boat and made arrangements to pick it up. No one ever reported the findings back. Some time later we did notice the old dealer no longer carried the line. Two years later through an employee who had worked for the initial dealer and now moved on, he found out the history of the boat. It had been dropped by a fork lift and repaired by the dealer prior to the original sale. Whether the problem was angle or setting of the drive or more likely alteration of the deadrise we never knew but something went terribly wrong. The manufacturer was more than fair and even paid the second dealer a profit on the replacement boat. That was one of thousands of that boat sold locally and the only one with such an issue, but it never would have passed a lake trial and survey.
I am not sure if I somehow led you to believe that a builder suggested that I not hire a surveyor. I did speak to a couple of highly regarded independent surveyors about surveying the boat during construction. Both were familiar with Tomco's boats and both suggested that I save my money and instead perform a purchase survey only. Each said very nice things about the builder and suggested that the boats are very well engineered and built.
It was the mechanic in me that led me to like the American Tug in the first place.
There is a 7 year old 34 in our marina that I used to stop and look at. The owners saw my interest and invited me aboard for a look. First thing I did was drop into the engine room and I was impressed with the details that I could identify. Obviously, I am a bit out of my league in a typical powerboat but I'm no novice...
The other thing that became very evident as I pursued this boat was the importance of my not being allowed to screw things up with my requests...
I have enough knowledge to be fairly opinionated and several of the changes I wanted in the boat were discussed at length before being abandoned. I've never met anyone like Kurt Dilworth when it comes to understanding the complexity of the entire package. That is not to say that I was talked out of every change I wanted though. Tomco will try to build you what you want, as long as you are willing to pay and as long as it doesn't compromise safety. They will discuss the compromises you are making though and they want you to understand.
They really want the boat to be successful and the experience a good one.
Bruce
No, you didn't suggest that. I was simply saying if one did so and I do know of some who have suggested buyers not do so.
chriscritchett
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2012
- Messages
- 188
Is it just me, or does the cabinetry sit right across the tank access opening in the sole?
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2008
- Messages
- 13,731
- Location
- California Delta
- Vessel Name
- FlyWright
- Vessel Make
- 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
There's just something interesting and fun about pics of the birth of a new vessel! I can't put my finger on it...
Good eye! Those cutouts are there for access to the sending units for the Wema gauge's. There is a trap door built into the bottom of the galley locker above the starboard tank and you can get to the sending unit.
Bruce
I knew little about the company before this boat. It was one of the watermakers Tomco offered as a factory installed unit.
I did get a chance to discuss the unit with their rep though. The poor guy was on vacation when I called and in spite of that he answered the phone and talked for 45 minutes!
It is a fairly simple unit built of non proprietary parts for the most part. CAT pump, motor, plumbing and membranes art all "off the shelf" items that can be sourced anywhere if the company where to disappear. The electronics are pretty basic too. I prefer basic watermakers of simple, robust design!
The other thing that impressed me was that the product output is specified for the cold waters of the PNW area. I am told that in warm water it only gets better...
The other choice was Village Marine. They are now owned by Parker and I couldn't get anyone there to answer the phone when I called...
I am sure Village Marine produces a great unit but I decided to take my chances on the smaller companies product. Ours is the 800 gallon per day or about 33 gallon per hour model.
Bruce
drb1025
Guru
Thanks, I think I will give them a call. I like that the parts are standard and that they answer the phone when you call. Nice boat by the way!
markpierce
Master and Commander
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2010
- Messages
- 12,557
- Location
- USA
- Vessel Name
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- penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Problems with a new boat will occur while operating the boat. Usually things an inspector cannot detect.
Thanks! We think it's nice...
As to US Watermaker, I liked the guy. He was on vacation with his wife at Zion National park when I called. Who answers a work phone when on vacation?
Bruce
A pragmatic view of the reality of the complexities of a new boat and her systems. I live for this kind of shakedown. I love the process of getting acquainted and shaking it all out!
Bruce
Nomad Willy
Guru
When I worked at Uniflite (70's) one of the most experienced men in the shop said to me in essence "these boats will get more use and abuse here on the line than most will get in their lifetime"
That goes back yo my post about design/capability vs actual use.
When we were building our Sabre, the owner of the sailboat being built ahead of ours told Sabre that they didn't really have to put the rig in the boat as he was likely never going to sail the boat!
Bruce
Esmeralde!
It is an old french spelling referring to Emerald...
All of my boats have had this name.
Bruce
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