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Old 04-15-2014, 10:45 AM   #21
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Robster, I agree with your views. Also, reverse the table for a moment -- is the captain entitled to additional fees for "lost time" due to breakdowns resulting from a vessel that was not "cruise ready" for an extended trip? The point of course is that we live (and play) in an imperfect world. Better to focus energy and money on making your boat safe and reliable.
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:05 AM   #22
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Could you be specific where the captain took the wrong turn? If I could see where it the error occurred...I may be able to give you more accurate info. I have been used in legal cases for "expert testimony" relating to captain issues...and I have seen "reasonable man" in legal terms to be all over the map when it comes to technical issues..
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:12 AM   #23
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Very interesting thread, certainly learning a bit, I would agree the time to hold back money was at the end, once paid in full the horse pretty much left the barn given you are in two different states. In the grand scheme of things its an easy fix thankfully, not like the strut punched through the hull.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:02 PM   #24
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Very interesting thread, certainly learning a bit, I would agree the time to hold back money was at the end, once paid in full the horse pretty much left the barn given you are in two different states. In the grand scheme of things its an easy fix thankfully, not like the strut punched through the hull.
May have been the time to negotiate or temporarily hold. However, failing to pay for such services can lead to rather severe consequences. It's not as cut and dried as if a mechanic or shipyard getting a mechanic's lien, but still a risk if the captain has an attorney.

The time was prior to signing the contract.

How many times have you had something put before you to sign and done so automatically? I'm amazed when I stop to read something that the person repeats, "just sign there" and I tell them I'm reading it first. Then often I write in more before signing even a simple document. Normally the person who has the contract, presenting it for signature, had it written very much to their benefit.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:07 PM   #25
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If you hold back in NJ...the Marine Police arrive and take down the information and everyone goes to court.

If the captain thinks he's got an open and shut case...he'll also sue for all costs associated with going to court...so make darn sure if you don't pay when services rendered in some places...you are without a doubt correct.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:08 PM   #26
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again to the OP...where was the split in routes????
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:32 PM   #27
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Many years ago when I was doing a lot of deliveries as a licensed captain I tried to buy insurance and was told it was not available, that the owners boat insurance covered the boat and me.
If you went to court it would be the word of a USCG licensed captain against a boat owner who hired the captain due to lack of knowledge.
From my limited knowledge of maritime law it is based on English common law. Crew members were in the eyes of the law were ignorant and needed protection from smart business owners and that attitude prevails to this day.
For the amount of money involved here it is time to move on.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:42 PM   #28
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I would appreciate advice from forum members . . .

I am not a litigious person and have never sued anyone in my life but I am considering filing a suit since he is not stepping up to take any responsibility. So my question for the the forum is what would you do in the situation i described? Go after him for the cost of the damage or let it go?

Your thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
If I were still practicing law (retired now), and you came into my office with this same question, I would advise you to go home, take two aspirin, and forget about it. Just chalk it up to boating experience.

The amount of money is small, the costs would be large, the jurisdiction problem is awfully messy, and just to make the whole witches brew even worse it gets into issues of maritime law, a specialty which 99.9% of lawyers know nothing about whatsoever.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:50 PM   #29
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Many years ago when I was doing a lot of deliveries as a licensed captain I tried to buy insurance and was told it was not available, that the owners boat insurance covered the boat and me.
If you went to court it would be the word of a USCG licensed captain against a boat owner who hired the captain due to lack of knowledge.
From my limited knowledge of maritime law it is based on English common law. Crew members were in the eyes of the law were ignorant and needed protection from smart business owners and that attitude prevails to this day.
For the amount of money involved here it is time to move on.
Actually many captains today, especially those with businesses, do have business liability insurance. Most have set their businesses up as legal entities and gotten it through that entity.

And I agree. The Plaintiff needs a preponderance of the evidence and to achieve that would need the testimony of someone at least equal to the Captain in expertise. And one has to prove not just that it turned out to be a mistake, but that there was negligence involved in what led to the problem. Owner's testimony carries relatively little weight on it's own. Could owner get a good lawyer, who brings in an expert witness and ultimately win if it ever got to court? Probably, but the cost of justice is sometimes very high.

When I was young that was something I had to learn, that right just wasn't always worth proving. Vendors and contractors would do less than good jobs and would negotiate what to pay but end up paying more than it was worth. Still it just wasn't worth doing anything else. Better just a lesson learned and a vendor not to use again and be thankful it wasn't worse. Occasionally my wife and I both still have to tell the other over something to "just let it go." We know we're right in our stance, it's just not worth continuing the battle. Recently we got horrible food at a restaurant. The steaks were tough, the potatoes cold, the salad wilted. We spoke to the waitress who obviously didn't care and there was no manager there. We weren't given any consideration. But there was really nothing more to do. Well, other than a bad review, which the good ones they had must have been family members.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:58 PM   #30
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this is the link - Skippers Choice Captain Crew Insurance


What does it cover?
Often a skipper will have an opportunity to work a passage or relieve a buddy for a charter and needs insurance coverage before assuming command.

Skipper's Choice Charter & Delivery Captain Liability Insurance
is handy for those eventualities and can be customized to cover-
1. your Legal Liability as a Professional delivery skipper or crew, or a captain who skippers more than one vessel.
2. you when the owner has no insurance or requires insurance for a passage or for charter use.
Coverage is available for as little as $500 per year
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Old 04-15-2014, 01:09 PM   #31
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The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious to me that this old saying holds true in this case ... The Master's Eye makes the Horse fat.

Lessons learned here for the time I need the delivery captain are:
- make sure myself that the darn new-to-me boat floats and motors and steers w/o any issues before the delivery commences,
- make sure that the contract stipulates delivery captain qualifications, insurance/bonding status, insurance situation, and captain responsibility in "what if" situations,
- make sure that the transit path is checked and defined, and included as an exhibit in the contract,
- make sure to be a part of the voyage, in person and in mind, and oversee the execution of the defined plan ... the master's eye makes the horse fat.
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Old 04-15-2014, 01:45 PM   #32
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wow,i didn't know font could get that big! Impressive
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Old 04-15-2014, 01:47 PM   #33
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wow,i didn't know font could get that big! Impressive
Can when you cut and paste and keep the format of the web site. lol
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Old 04-15-2014, 01:53 PM   #34
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I can see that response from across the room without my glasses.Wish that was on my recent eye test!lol
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Old 04-15-2014, 02:01 PM   #35
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I also ran aground in that same spot many years ago. It was a cold winter night. Not much fun. But we were able to back out of that area very quickly.Almost everyone does it once. You really have to zoom pretty far out on the plotter to see that the channel ends in the bay. Here is

Click image for larger version

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a screenshot of that. It is the lower channel in the picture. It is in Matagorda Bay Texas.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using speech to text.so some words may not be perfect.but it's easier.
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Old 04-15-2014, 03:11 PM   #36
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I'd like to hear exactly from the OP as that doesn't match the mental picture I see of what he described.
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Old 04-15-2014, 03:25 PM   #37
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wow,i didn't know font could get that big! Impressive
Sure it can.
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Old 04-15-2014, 03:33 PM   #38
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The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious to me that this old saying holds true in this case ... The Master's Eye makes the Horse fat.

Lessons learned here for the time I need the delivery captain are:
- make sure myself that the darn new-to-me boat floats and motors and steers w/o any issues before the delivery commences,
- make sure that the contract stipulates delivery captain qualifications, insurance/bonding status, insurance situation, and captain responsibility in "what if" situations,
- make sure that the transit path is checked and defined, and included as an exhibit in the contract,
- make sure to be a part of the voyage, in person and in mind, and oversee the execution of the defined plan ... the master's eye makes the horse fat.
Probably not...wouldn't happen with any captain I know....too many variables even just holding in a cut while a storm goes by can throw everything off....

But wording should include what you want...say "both owner/capt must be in agreement to deviate"...or at least something that allows flexibility yet makes the owner comfortable.
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Old 04-15-2014, 03:42 PM   #39
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By the way, ask him for a copy of the report he mandatorily filed with the USCG. If he didn't file one, he may really wish to make the whole thing go away.

Good Point!!!
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Old 04-15-2014, 03:58 PM   #40
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Here's a better screenshot. If you follow the magenta line like you're supposed to. You end up going the wrong way. In this case the lower line to the south is the dead end. The channel you're supposed to be in is the one north of that. This is the best I can do with a cell phone. The whole Coastal Bend of Texas is poorly maintained as far as nav aids are concerned. There are still things missing and out of place since the hurricanes of 2005. And then we got pummeled again in 2008. Nothing's really been done.

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using speech to text.so some words may not be perfect.but it's easier.
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