Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-17-2012, 07:35 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
BlueSky's Avatar
 
City: Woodstock, GA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Avalon
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 38
Advice on Choosing a Boat

Hi Guys - I'm new to this forum. I've been hanging around for quite a while but I haven't had anything to add or ask until now, and I'm hoping for some*advice.
*
We're currently searching for a boat to buy and we know what we want; a 42' Krogen. My wife and I both think they're beautiful and they fit our needs well. We'd prefer one in the 1986 to 1989 range. We've looked at*four now,*and made an offer on one that wasn't accepted. We're currently just watching what's available and trying to learn all we can about the purchase process in the meantime.
*
A few minutes ago I read a comment in an*older post that said "A KK42 well maintained doesnt stay on the market very long if its market priced". And that's exactly what I want, a good boat that's fairly priced. Trouble is I don't know how to determine either. I don't really have an idea of which available boat is the best without going to a full survey; and they all seem overpriced.
*
So I guess my question is; How do I know if a*boat*is worthy of making an offer before going to a survey? One we looked at and liked has amost 9000 hours on the engine*and that*concerns me. It seems to be in pretty fair shape other than that, but I don't really know. And then comes the price. We thought we at least had a shot with our offer, (which was low but*realistic), but the owner wasn't inclined to move on the cost.
*
It's a big purchase and I'd like to get it right the first time. Any thoughts?
*
Richard



-- Edited by BlueSky on Saturday 18th of February 2012 09:35:44 PM


-- Edited by BlueSky on Saturday 18th of February 2012 09:39:01 PM
__________________
Advertisement

BlueSky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 07:46 PM   #2
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,924
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:Hi Guys - I'm new to this forum. I've been hanging around for quite a while but I haven't had anything to add or ask until now, and I'm hoping for some*advice.
We're currently searching for a boat to buy and we know what we want; a 42' Krogen. My wife and I both think they're beautiful and they fit our needs well. We'd prefer one in the 1986 to 1989 range. We've looked at*four now,*and made an offer on one that wasn't accepted. We're currently just watching what's available and trying to learn all we can about the purchase process in the meantime.
A few minutes ago I read a comment in an*older post that said "A KK42 well maintained doesnt stay on the market very long if its market priced". And that's exactly what I want, a good boat that's fairly priced. Trouble is I don't know how to determine either. I don't really have an idea of which available boat is the best without going to a full survey; and they all seem overpriced.
So I guess my question is; How do I know if a*boat*is worthy of making an offer before going to a survey? One we looked at and liked has amost 9000 hours on the engine*and that*concerns me. It seems to be in pretty fair shape other than that, but I don't really know. And then comes the price. We thought we at least had a shot with our offer, (which was low but*realistic), but the owner wasn't inclined to move on the cost.
It's a big purchase and I'd like to get it right the first time. Any thoughts?
*
Richard
*Is this your first big boat purchase?
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 08:16 PM   #3
Guru
 
bobofthenorth's Avatar
 
City: Cowichan Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gray Hawk
Vessel Model: Defever 43 Offshore Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 570
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

If you know what you want and you've looked at enough to be sure you know what you want then be patient. Patience is all a buyer ever needs.
bobofthenorth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 08:35 PM   #4
Guru
 
Fotoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 621
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

You need to educate yourself as much as possible on the type of boat you want (both from a technical point of view and the market). This will allow you to identify a potential good deal. Then it's down to the survey. This is your best tool to negociate and to know exactly what you are buying. It's a buyer's market but it can take a while before the right one comes along. Just be patient.
Fotoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 08:40 PM   #5
Guru
 
Ocean Breeze NL's Avatar
 
City: Springdale, NL
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Ocean Breeze
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 85OA38
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 530
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Hey Scott, the thing you probably ( reading between the lines ) don't want to do is purchase and then find out you have a lot of repairs i.e engine rebuild.

When we purchased, my seller had the Survey done for me ( sweet ) so it didn't cost me anything. Then I had a friend who does Boat Surveys check it out and all was good. Maybe ask the seller(s) if there was anyone that was interested in purchasing the boat before that already paid for a Survey but couldn't come up with the money to purchase. Get a contact number to see if he/she would be willing to sell it to you half price or even better give it to you. At least it is worth a try! Or there maybe someone that wouldn't mind checking out the boat for you without doing a full blown Survey. There are lots around that has experience on what to look for or give you a better idea on what the condition of things are.*

One thing though, unless you purchase new, there will be work to do so one must budget for that too.

Don't rush into something that you will regret... we looked a lot before we purchased.

Good luck
Elwin*

*
Ocean Breeze NL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:21 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
BlueSky's Avatar
 
City: Woodstock, GA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Avalon
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 38
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Thanks Guys.

I've had multiple small boats through the years and my last boat was a 34" Express Cruiser. I've never owned anything quite this size.

How concerned should I be about 9000 hours on an engine? No matter how well it's been maintained it has to be close to the end; doesn't it?
BlueSky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:33 PM   #7
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:How concerned should I be about 9000 hours on an engine? No matter how well it's been maintained it has to be close to the end; doesn't it?
* * * ** IMHO, yes, it has to be close to a major overhaul. (Or the end.) There will be some on this forum that will say that "it could go 20,000 hours if it has been well maintained and not punished." If I loved a boat and it had 9,000 hours on the engine, there would have to be a significant price reduction by the seller before I would even think about it.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:37 PM   #8
Guru
 
Ocean Breeze NL's Avatar
 
City: Springdale, NL
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Ocean Breeze
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 85OA38
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 530
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

I agree Walt.


Elwin*
Ocean Breeze NL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 10:47 PM   #9
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:
How concerned should I be about 9000 hours on an engine? No matter how well it's been maintained it has to be close to the end; doesn't it?
Depends on the make and model of engine and how it was operated during all those 9,000 hours.* That's definitely getting up there in terms of engine age but so much depends on how it was operated and maintained it's impossible without knowing this if it really is running out of time or has a few thousand more left in it.

Another factor is how much do you anticipate using the boat?* Do you think you'll put two or three thousand hours on it while you own it?*Or more?*

If you anticpate using the boat for the typical 100-150 hours that seems to be the average time put on cruising boats like ours per year, that works out to about twenty years of use out of the boat if you put 3,000 more hours on it.* Do you anticiapte owning it that long?

If you figure owning the boat for say, ten years and you figure you'll do that 100-150 hours per year, 9000 hours on the engine may not be an issue if the engine has been operated and maintained properly and everything else about the boat is perfect for you.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 11:33 PM   #10
Guru
 
Conrad's Avatar
 
City: Calgary
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Blue Sky
Vessel Model: Nordic Tugs 42 Hull #001
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,553
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

I would be very wary of a seller's survey.We found out the hard way that it can be pretty much useless. As our insurer said, the surveyor is going to be biased toward whoever is paying them, at least to some degree. In our case it was to a large degree.*
Conrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 02:41 AM   #11
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,534
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

What engine and transmission?
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 05:44 AM   #12
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,924
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
Conrad wrote:
I would be very wary of a seller's survey.We found out the hard way that it can be pretty much useless. As our insurer said, the surveyor is going to be biased toward whoever is paying them, at least to some degree. In our case it was to a large degree.*
ANY*kind of survey I'd be wary of...there's always hidden*problems and brand new engines have issues (hopefully under warranty).... though you still lose a big chunk of the boating season and often the engine continues to have issues until the bugs are worked out.

9000 hour engine...yeah I'd be thinking new engine pretty soon...certainly before I headed away from places that could replace it quickly and have a few to bargain with.

But when was the last time you found 2 boats so identical with one having a 1000 hr engine and the other with a 9000 hr engine?* How do you set a fair price and THEN come up with a $10000-$20000 drop in price due to the engines age???* I can't*...and I've been buying and around boats a pretty long time.* Heck a paint job on a 40 foot trawler costs more than an engine now....bad woodwork on the interior is almost as much.* Electronics are halfway there for sure.* So how do you argue off money...more than a few thousand just because the engine is high time but still running and could easily go another 3000 hrs?* If it just had a new heat exchanger, starter, alternator, tranny cooler...you would be hard pressed to argue too much off from me.

Negotiate a 9000 hr engine?...sure but I doubt you'll argue too much about just the engine...the overall condition of the boat and TOTAL equipment package has just as much effect on price in my book.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 05:48 AM   #13
Guru
 
Steve's Avatar
 
City: Thibodaux, Louisiana
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Gumbo
Vessel Model: 2003 Monk 36
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,607
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

This is an interesting site, http://www.yachtsurvey.com/ lots of good information by a knowlegable, maybe a bit hardnosed guy, check out boat reviews and the section on buying a boat plus others.
For an initial opinion, do you have any experienced boating friends who might take a look at it with you that would be a good start.
Once you find a make you like see if they have an owners site maybe you can you can view or even join.
And don't get romanced by the boat!
Good luck,
Steve W
Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 06:33 AM   #14
Veteran Member
 
BlueSky's Avatar
 
City: Woodstock, GA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Avalon
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 38
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

But when was the last time you found 2 boats so identical with one having a 1000 hr engine and the other with a 9000 hr engine? How do you set a fair price and THEN come up with a $10000-$20000 drop in price due to the engines age???

_________________________________________________

That's exactly my problem. How do*I*determine the true condition and*a fair price for each without a survey on both? I only spent an hour or so on both when I saw them and you can't determine much from that.

I've looked at comparable sales for a reference but you don't learn much, and*I know that eventually it comes down to what I'll pay and what the seller*will take. I just can't decide*on a baseline price*that's reasonable for*both of those boats. The listing prices on both seem unrealistic.*

The 1800 hour boat has been on the market for three years; the 9000 hour boat for three months. But they are both almost identically priced. How do I factor that into the equation?
BlueSky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 06:58 AM   #15
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,924
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:
But when was the last time you found 2 boats so identical with one having a 1000 hr engine and the other with a 9000 hr engine? How do you set a fair price and THEN come up with a $10000-$20000 drop in price due to the engines age???

_________________________________________________

That's exactly my problem. How do*I*determine the true condition and*a fair price for each without a survey on both? I only spent an hour or so on both when I saw them and you can't determine much from that.

I've looked at comparable sales for a reference but you don't learn much, and*I know that eventually it comes down to what I'll pay and what the seller*will take. I just can't decide*on a baseline price*that's reasonable for*both of those boats. The listing prices on both seem unrealistic.*

The 1800 hour boat has been on the market for three years; the 9000 hour boat for three months. But they are both almost identically priced. How do I factor that into the equation?
*You can't...the boat I just bought was "about" what I wanted....any older boat is a work in progress.* I bought a decent name boat that was laid out like I wanted.* there were only a few on the maket that met my limitations, likes, dislikes.

The survey went well...yeah...I just got finished grinding off the entire bottom of the boat due to hydrolysis ($20,000) if a yard did it.* Yesterday I noticed a dark spot about a foot long at the bottom of the keel.* So I ground into it.* I ground into the hollow spot and about 50 gallons of water came out (garden hose flow for over 20 minutes).* Where was the surveyor on that one?* Some had told me the keels were full of concrete.

The only way I can describe on how to price a boat is to know it's design SO well...there's no "secrets" that can hide from you.* NEVER depend on a surveyor unless you know the guy thoroughly and even then I would never accept the survey as 90% good unless I had an owner like me whose owned the same kind/model year boat go through the survey process with the surveyor....

Back to pricing...there's always 3 tiers....bad, good, and really nice at least on the surface.* The bad is always too much work unless you are broke and need a roof over your head quick.* The really nice on the surface can still have the same problems as "good boats" but look prettier.* The good are always going to have tens of thousands of dollars worth of work...but are usually priced half way between the bad and really nice.

So you just have to do the homework....look through hundreds of ads (mine was only on Craigs list a week before I put a deposit on her/flew down as soon as I saw the ad/price and talked to the PO).* Then look at the general condition of some of the boats (but they do tend to fall into the 3 categories especialy if there are less than 25 boats that meet your criteria)...and roll the dice.* On a $50,000 boat...expect to pay for at least $25000 worth of unknown stuff....on a $100,000 boat it may be only $10-$15000.* You still come out ahead with the cheaper boat..especially if you can do the work yourself.* You may never make that cheaper boat look as good...not without spending more than the more expensive one to begin with...but at some point who cares????* I don't...if you want yachtie...you pay for it up front, slave over the look and still take a hit when you sell...just not my style.*

I'll start*with "good"... customize and fix to my standards*...have a better boat than the manufacturer produced at a fraction of new...but it will never get any better than halfway between "yacht" and "workboat" looks...that's OK cause the beer will be just as cold and the sunset just as pretty from where I sit.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 07:04 AM   #16
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,924
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:
But when was the last time you found 2 boats so identical with one having a 1000 hr engine and the other with a 9000 hr engine? How do you set a fair price and THEN come up with a $10000-$20000 drop in price due to the engines age???

_________________________________________________

That's exactly my problem. How do*I*determine the true condition and*a fair price for each without a survey on both? I only spent an hour or so on both when I saw them and you can't determine much from that.

I've looked at comparable sales for a reference but you don't learn much, and*I know that eventually it comes down to what I'll pay and what the seller*will take. I just can't decide*on a baseline price*that's reasonable for*both of those boats. The listing prices on both seem unrealistic.*

The 1800 hour boat has been on the market for three years; the 9000 hour boat for three months. But they are both almost identically priced. How do I factor that into the equation?
*OK...my other post was my soapbox post...here's the real answer...I bet I could find 10-20 major differences in the 2 boats you are looking at anyway...things that may affect the price almost what it would cost to repower..or at least a big chunk.

If they are identical...which I doubt...the 9000 hour engine is 3/4 of the way to a repower and the other is only a 1/4 say. $20,000 repower....offer the 9000 hr boat $10000 less and use the other as an example.

Here's the rub...if it were me..I'd have your head spinning why my boat with a 9000 hr engine is 2X what the other one is and what a GREAT bargain you are getting...so have at it...
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 07:08 AM   #17
Guru
 
bobofthenorth's Avatar
 
City: Cowichan Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gray Hawk
Vessel Model: Defever 43 Offshore Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 570
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:
That's exactly my problem. How do*I*determine the true condition and*a fair price for each without a survey on both? I only spent an hour or so on both when I saw them and you can't determine much from that.

I've looked at comparable sales for a reference but you don't learn much, and*I know that eventually it comes down to what I'll pay and what the seller*will take. I just can't decide*on a baseline price*that's reasonable for*both of those boats. The listing prices on both seem unrealistic.*
You're placing WAY too much faith in the mysterious survey process.* A surveyor is just another guy whose opinion you pay for.* Apparently some of them have opinions worth paying for.* I haven't met them but I trust they do exist.*

If you only spent an hour on the boat why would you think you are ready to make an offer on it?

You're not ready to make an offer.* Look at about 30 more boats and then think about making an offer.


*
bobofthenorth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 07:30 AM   #18
Veteran Member
 
BlueSky's Avatar
 
City: Woodstock, GA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Avalon
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 38
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

--- If you only spent an hour on the boat why would you think you are ready to make an offer on it? ---

I agree. But how*do you get to spend more significant time with it? Should I ask them to take me out for a test ride?

--- You're not ready to make an offer. Look at about 30 more boats and then think about making an offer. ---

There aren't 30 more Krogens to look at. Over the last couple years we have looked at boats, and looked at more boats and looked at more boats. I'm confident I know which type of boat we want. But we new we were not ready to buy then. Now that we are ready / able to buy, I just want to do it right. In five years I don't want to be saying to myself that I wish I had done something different. It's not a clear cut process.
BlueSky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 07:46 AM   #19
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,956
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

There's another way to go about this, but it will cost you some.

Instead of hiring a surveyor for a full survey, hire him for a informal walkthrough.

Most surveyors will be happy to do this for a nominal fee. That way you'll be able to tell if the boat is even worth looking further at.
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2012, 08:00 AM   #20
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,924
RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
ksanders wrote:
There's another way to go about this, but it will cost you some.

Instead of hiring a surveyor for a full survey, hire him for a informal walkthrough.

Most surveyors will be happy to do this for a nominal fee. That way you'll be able to tell if the boat is even worth looking further at.
*unless the surveyor is very familiar with that style boat...not even worth it till you pay him for the survey you HAVE to get to get it insured.

To the OP..if you want a Krogen and you want it now...buy either one (with my past advice) and bite the bullet...that's what I had to do with my Albin.

I too wanted a KK42 but none were in my price range so I settled for another type.* There always was one KK42 that was a big step down..though never looked at her..I suspected something with the cored hull or REALLY bad housekeeping compared to the pack.

All the others fell into my other 2 categories of good...then really good..again some were in need of a lot of TLC (but were turnkey) and the others probable as good or better than new.

If you are SOLID on a KK42...the you might as well flip a coin on a couple in your price range...go look...a rough look is all you need...then offer.* The answer is usually yes or no..

Once purchased and you REALLY tear into her...is when...AND ONLY THEN...do you find out whether you paid a fair price.
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
boat buying advice. larryinvictoria General Discussion 2 11-02-2011 09:02 PM
Choosing a Marine Varnish marinetrader General Maintenance 10 11-26-2009 09:38 PM
advice re boat pallares General Discussion 44 07-14-2009 04:41 AM
Choosing an anchor (longish) Marin General Discussion 5 05-01-2009 08:41 AM
Choosing an Autopilot??? DonW Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 7 05-30-2008 11:36 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012