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Old 02-18-2012, 09:31 AM   #21
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Do you play cards, dice, poker or slots?* If so, you probably do everything you can to increase the odd's in your favor before you place the bet. Still, no matter how much homework you do to get the odd's in your favor, at some point you have to place your bet.* After that, it doesn't take too long to determine if youv'e won or lost that round.* Buying a boat is pretty similar, but you can do far more to put the odds in your favor than you can when pulling the slot machine handle.* The best thing you can do is to educate yourself on all things related to boats. Read all the books you can on mechanical and electrical systems, take a diesel repair class, hang out at boat yards and ask questions, volunteer to work on museum boats, take an automotive repair class, join the owners club and ask current owners lots of questions.* Go to the owners club gatherings and get on as many boats as possible and ask questions.* The more informed you are, the better chances you will get the right boat for your budget and desires at a price you are comfortable with.

Brokers are a good source of pricing information. Most can pull up past sales of similar boats for the last few years.* While there is no way to determine the condition of those boats, the more expensive ones probably were in much better shape than the least expensive ones.* Try to determine where the boat your interested in falls and offer accordingly.

Surveyors are all over the map quality wise.* Ask for references and then call those references, but realize no one would give you give you bad references so don't expect to hear that someone's survey missed a lot of expensive problems. Ask everyone you can who they used and if they would use them again.*

Ultimately, once you have educated your self as much as possible, you have to place your bet and roll the dice. If you've done your homework properly you stand a much better chance of coming out a winner.* Meanwhile enjoy the process, it's as much fun as actually owning the boat and it's much less expensive......Arctic Traveller

Trawler training at www.arctictraveller.com

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Old 02-18-2012, 10:47 AM   #22
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:
--- If you only spent an hour on the boat why would you think you are ready to make an offer on it? ---

I agree. But how*do you get to spend more significant time with it? Should I ask them to take me out for a test ride
No you are not going to get a seatrial without a 10% deposit. But if you are a cash buyer, not a gee I have to go find financing buyer, you tell the broker you want to crawl around for a couple of hours and take your own oil analysis. If the broker won't go for it find another broker. If the owner won't go for it find another boat. Maybe this won't fly where you live but it does in So Cal. Good luck
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:59 AM   #23
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

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BlueSky wrote:
--- You're not ready to make an offer. Look at about 30 more boats and then think about making an offer. ---

There aren't 30 more Krogens to look at. Over the last couple years we have looked at boats, and looked at more boats and looked at more boats. I'm confident I know which type of boat we want. But we new we were not ready to buy then. Now that we are ready / able to buy, I just want to do it right. In five years I don't want to be saying to myself that I wish I had done something different. It's not a clear cut process.
If you're really ready to buy then you know the issues to look for on the boat/boats that you have settled on looking at.* Then you take however long it takes to determine whether those issues are present and if so make an estimate of how much it is going to cost to fix them.* If the broker/owner is unwilling to let you do that thorough an investigation then you assume those issues are present and price your offer accordingly.* And if you're me - ie. fundamentally a pessimist (realist?) - then you assume that there will be issues that you don't identify and price that into your offer as well.

Most importantly you are prepared to walk if the seller won't meet your price.* Way too many people approach a negotiation with the attitude of "let's see if I can get a discount on this thing that I really want".* Far better to say to yourself "this boat is worth exactly $xxx,xxx to me - why would I pay more?"
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:17 AM   #24
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Keith can chime on this, but more than the engine I'd be careful on the hull. I believe this year of K42 is cored below the waterline. Two years ago a friend bought one and it was water logged in much of the core. The surveyor found some saturation but not all, oops big time.

Figure a rebuild on a 120 Lehman or Perkins at about $10K or a reman Cummins at about $15K if you do a lot of wrench turning.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:29 AM   #25
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Advice on Choosing a Boat

I think every cruising-type boat--- brand new or 30 years old--- has problems. We've watched a brand new GB52 go through some pretty major post-delivery surgery to correct problems that arose because of the type of engines the owner insisted that GB put in the boat, problems with stainless that turned out to have been faultily made, and so on. And our own now-39-year-old boat is a never ending to-do list. Good hull and engine surveyors-- and not all of them are good-- can find a whole lot of things that are not up to snuff on a boat, as well as help determine that things are actually pretty good. But they won't find everything, and the very nature of a boat is such that five minutes after the surveyors leave, something new, minor or major, will crop up.

But if you really want a boat, at some point you have to pull the trigger. The best thing you can do, in my opinion, is gather as much information as you can about the boats you're interested in. The surveys are part of that. So is talking to other KK owners, if that's the kind of boat you've decided you want. So is perusing owners forums and asking questions. So is reading stuff like David Pascoe's website that an earlier poster referenced.

I've mentioned this before in other discussions, but in addition to our own broker who was and is very experienced with GBs, and the hull and engine surveyors we hired to check out the boat we subsequently bought, we also took with us to California a good friend whose lifelong career has been in the marine engine and generator business. He had a vast amount of experience with boats--- all kinds of boats and yachts--- from an engineering, powering, and systems viewpoint. He didn't care if we bought the boat or not, he had no horse in the race at all. He was a totally objective set of eyes. His presence, observations, opinions, and advice made a major difference in how our inspection and checkout, sea trial, and the surveys went, and ultimately had a major influence on our decision. His airfare, hotel, and expenses are the best money we have ever paid for anything because everything he said and predicted about the boat have been proven right on the money over the last 13 years.

I don't know if you know anyone who could play a similar role as you look at boats that interest you, but if there is I would strongly recommend that you engage them in your search and decision.

I also put a lot of faith in "gut feel." You can get all the information you can get about a boat, you can have the surveys, you can sea trial it, you can do the math, you can balance engine hours against the overall condition of the boat, and so on. But I have found that for me, anyway, a big decision-- be it buying a boat, house, making a major location change--- in the end comes down to my basic feeling about it. Even if there are almost as many reasons not to do something as do it, I've found that if in the end I do what "feels right," I always make the correct decision.

There are a bazillion boats for sale out there and there always will be. If a boat deal doesn't feel right to you, pass it up. To think that you'll find yourself a few years down the road still boatless and wishing you'd bought the one you passed on earlier is a false worry, I think. Boats of all kinds are coming on the market all the time. If you really like a particular boat but are worried about the engine hours, if you buy the boat you will still be worried about the engine hours. And this constant worry or concern will take the edge off your enjoyment of the boat.

Our boat was 25 years old when we bought it and it had a huge list of issues, from a teak deck that needed a lot of work to brightwork that needed redoing to toilets that needed overhauling to needing new engine mounts to....... the list went on. BUT..... we knew, thanks in large part to the experience and advice of our friend-- pretty much exactly what we were getting into. We could start using the boat right away and enjoying it rather than have to spend a ton of time and money getting it to the point where we could use it.* And since we knew the cons of the boat as well as the pros, and we felt we could accept and deal with the cons over time, we did not start out our cruising experience with an overlying worry about some fundamenal aspect of the boat.

So if a boat feels right, get it.* If it doesn't, pass and go on to the next one.* Because there is always a next one.





-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 18th of February 2012 12:32:44 PM
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:17 AM   #26
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

A boat with a 9000 hour engine has been used, a dock Queen with 1000 was not.

You can be sure all the gear that needs to function will operate on the 9000 boat.

Only the fridge , air cond , microwave and TV will be sure to function on the dock cottage.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:09 AM   #27
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

I didn't read the entire thread, but my '86 Krogen is cored with PVC foam. Good thing is that it won't rot. I had tons of blisters on it when I purchased her, and negotiated a price reduction to have them fixed properly. That being said, I could have never done a thing and it would still be fine. Even extensive blistering is not a structural problem, mostly cosmetic. I did have my hull peeled and post-cured with the Hotvac system, then relaminated. Cost about $25K. Nary a blister since. You will find another problem with Krogens in that time frame - it's called "oil-canning". There may be 4*deflections in the hull that can be fixed, but again, it's not a structural issue. I never addressed that on mine and have basically forgotten about them.

The upper decks are an area you have to be careful with. With all those screws, you will probably have some soft spots and rot somewhere. You can also have this fixed, but it's terribly expensive. I just maintain mine as best as I can. Overall great boats!
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:31 AM   #28
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

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BlueSky wrote:*In five years I don't want to be saying to myself that I wish I had done something different.
*Now that's funny! *It won't take you 5 weeks before you are going to find something that is going to make you say, "I bet that other boat didn't have this SHI* going on" *but that is boating. *My wife and I absolutely fell in love with the 42'KK when we saw our first one. *Then we went aboard a 47'Atlantic (the holy grail to this day).* My humble advice is don't fall so in love with one boat that it blocks out the possibility of another boat being even better suited to you. *Try to figure out the design features you must have and then search out the different types of boats that offer it. *For us it was that the boat had to have a cockpit, no ifs ands or buts. *This made us pass up many INCREDIBLE deals on sundeck/aft cabin boats but we knew that we have to have a cockpit with for dogs. *I would love to have gotten a Chris Craft 48 Catalina but with so few having been made they are still like unobtainium with our budget. *So we decided to buy something we could buy outright, fix up the way we want it, and enjoy it now instead of continuing the hunt. *I feel it was the right thing to do so that my wife can learn some of the quirks of boats/boating and have some real input and understanding when it comes time to get the "dream boat".
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:33 AM   #29
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Any chance of tracking down the surveyor that help the person selling it now? He'd be the guy to do a simple walk-thru.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:57 AM   #30
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:
There aren't 30 more Krogens to look at. Over the last couple years we have looked at boats, and looked at more boats and looked at more boats. I'm confident I know which type of boat we want. But we new we were not ready to buy then. Now that we are ready / able to buy, I just want to do it right. In five years I don't want to be saying to myself that I wish I had done something different. It's not a clear cut process.
What was it*about the KK42 that*makes it the perfect boat for you and your wife?* What did she think when you were visiting the two boats?* Which of the two boats really spoke to you and more importantly your wife??

*
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:42 AM   #31
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

BlueSky: See if you can negotiate the price down as you are concerned about the hours. We have a 1987 KK42 with 7,330 hours on the engine and we should get 12-15,000 before we need to do a major. If you make an offer, it should state that the deal will go through with a satisfactory survey which would should include a good mechanical/hull survey and sea trial. If anything doesnt pass your muster, you walk away and you are only out the cost of the survey. Get a good diesel mechanic who is familiar with that engine to do the mechanical end in addtion to the marine surveyor. The engine is probably a Ford Lehman SP 135 which was pretty much standard for the years you are looking at.

Before we bought Hobo I flew to FL from the PNW to look at a KK42. We walked away from it. At the end of the day we spent ~$1,500 but it was worth it. When we looked at the next KK42, which we bought, we had a much better idea on what to look for and made up the money in negotiating the sale. Remember you are buying a 25 year old boat. Every boat that age has some issues.

Since we have owned Hobo, we have traveled over 12,500 miles and for the money, we havent been on another boat that we would trade her for.

Good luck. Keep us posted on what you decide.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:51 AM   #32
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

What was it about the KK42 that makes it the perfect boat for you and your wife? What did she think when you were visiting the two boats? Which of the two boats really spoke to you and more importantly your wife??

_________________________________________________

We've looked through a lot of boats in the last couple years and narrowed down our likes & dislikes.

My wife strongly prefers boats with a covered back porch and protected sidedecks*that are low to the water, they make her feel safe. She prefers boats that sit low*to the water, she doesn't like the motion*when she's on a flybridge or anywhere that is raised. Also, she likes the layout in the galley.

For me, I want a single engine. I've been maintaining twins for years in a space I*don't fit into. No more, I want*room to work*and simplicity.*

Two cabins are a must for us. Kids and grandkids are always around and they need their own space.

We both like the pilothouse ... very comfortable underway. We both think it's a visually beautiful boat, you can't look away when you see one.

And finally, it's the one she's agreed to let me*buy.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:05 AM   #33
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Advice on Choosing a Boat

It sounds to me Richard you both know what you want. Asking for advice sometimes can give you confusing directions because everyone that has a nose has an opinion and like noses some are crooked.

*
Remember what you need may be just around the corner but what you want may take a bit.

Elwin*


-- Edited by Ocean Breeze NL on Sunday 19th of February 2012 09:18:21 AM
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:13 AM   #34
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:
And finally, it's the one she's agreed to let me*buy.
*And there is the answer. *

*

If the engine doesn't smoke after warming up, and isn't a corrosion/rust nightmare(Feel along the under edges of the oilpan checking the boltheads)and runs at good temps when pushed over normal cruising speeds, *I wouldn't let the hours scare me, in fact I'd use them as a bargaining chip.

It was a dead give-away when we stepped aboard a boat that was used vs. a dock decoration when you opened the door and the "trawler" odor wafts over you. *Unless the boat looked spectacular that pretty much made our minds up that if the owner didn't care enough to take care of things like that you could count on the FACT that they didn't do other much more consequential maintenance/repairs. *I really liked it when owners would meet us and were all too happy to go rooting around the boat showing off things they'd replaced or modified over their time with the boat.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:16 AM   #35
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

It sounds to me Richard you both know what you want. Asking for advice sometimes can give you confusing directions because everyone that has a nose has an opinion and like noses some are crooked.

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This has all been very helpful and I appreciate all the feedback I've received.

Mainly it affirms that I'm doing the right things. I think just being a little more patient and letting things develop is the prevailing theme. Other than being anxious to get on with it, I have no reason to be in a hurry. And I've*found that if I wait long enough, the correct decision will usually present itself.

Thanks for all the help guys!
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:51 AM   #36
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Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
twiisted71 wrote:BlueSky wrote:
And finally, it's the one she's agreed to let me*buy.
*And there is the answer. *

*

If the engine doesn't smoke after warming up, and isn't a corrosion/rust nightmare(Feel along the under edges of the oilpan checking the boltheads)and runs at good temps when pushed over normal cruising speeds, *I wouldn't let the hours scare me, in fact I'd use them as a bargaining chip.

It was a dead give-away when we stepped aboard a boat that was used vs. a dock decoration when you opened the door and the "trawler" odor wafts over you. *Unless the boat looked spectacular that pretty much made our minds up that if the owner didn't care enough to take care of things like that you could count on the FACT that they didn't do other much more consequential maintenance/repairs. *I really liked it when owners would meet us and were all too happy to go rooting around the boat showing off things they'd replaced or modified over their time with the boat.

*Just cause an owner shows you "things" they did...unless you get into the destructive mode...you reall never know.*On my boat... the "y" valves on the head systems looked normal till you tried to switch them...trashed.* The sanitation hoses looked good till you grabbed them...broke off in my hands.* The bottom looked good till I ground off the gel coat and found 3-6 layers of laminate dry in some areas and could be pulled off by hand...I could go on for over and hour.

Things that REALLY cost...are sometimes hidden and you won't find out till you rip into them.* My PO showed off a nice boat that he used often...so often he did put a new engine in her.* That's what I bough....t a 18 month old engine, 400 gal new diesel and a bottom that still floated.* The surveyor missed probably 50 percent of the big things..in his defense**I did tell him the price was right for what I wanted...but still he could have warned me over the phone about some of the stuff if he even "caught" it.*

*The PO was so proud of so much..the boat did make it flawlessly from Ft Lauderdale to NJ.* OK so we struggled with the heads...not sure what was wrong at the time...but I had no time between purchase and return to home.* Most people wouldn't have bought the boat because the thought of redoing the bottom, decks, windows, interior wood, no electronics would scare to many away.* I knew I could fix any of that so all I needed was a good running engine (had it not been new I would have challenged him another 10 grand)...and a bottom that with some work would keep floating another 20 years.

So boats that had some but all those issues addressed were at least $50,000 more so I'll save $25,000 or so and get to do the rest my way.

But don't for one minute think POs or surveyors are gonna catch big stuff...they may....they may not..it's up to you to see if you beat the odds.* Either way...you have to be satisfied at the end...that's the only thing that matters.


-- Edited by psneeld on Sunday 19th of February 2012 10:56:19 AM
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:04 AM   #37
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
BlueSky wrote:
We both like the pilothouse ... very comfortable underway. We both think it's a visually beautiful boat, you can't look away when you see one.

And finally, it's the one she's agreed to let me*buy.
*You are spot on!!* Having been there and done it, *If the wife doesn't like the boat or even boating in general it becomes an impossible situation.*** It not like owning a 20 foot go fast boat.* Owning a big boat takes your time,*commitment and needs to be the pasion*for both of you.* If not, then you each follow your own dreams, drift apart and end up going your separate ways.

Larry B
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:52 AM   #38
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

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But don't for one minute think POs or surveyors are gonna catch big stuff...they may....they may not..it's up to you to see if you beat the odds.* Either way...you have to be satisfied at the end...that's the only thing that matters.*

________________________________________________

*

Exactly and like you I know enough about boats that I'm not going to hire a surveyor to determine what a boat is worth to me. *But it was nice knowing the age/maintenance of some systems, other than a broker saying "well she had a bottom job XX/XX/XXXX and the engine has XXXX hrs. *Great when were the manifolds changed? *Was the bottom job just a re-roll?

I bought my boat with a known non-working (split) head, leaking freshwater system, NO electronics, NO windlass, Iffy A/C (that crapped out the day I pulled away from the dock!) *Like you I could go on and on and knew that buying a boat this old I would run into owner "fixes" that you have to figure out what the did and then why. *Sometimes you just rip it out and start over.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:46 AM   #39
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

I ground off the gel coat and found 3-6 layers of laminate dry in some areas and could be pulled off by hand

Now there is a Mfg to avoid forever!!!!
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:18 AM   #40
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RE: Advice on Choosing a Boat

Quote:
FF wrote:
I ground off the gel coat and found 3-6 layers of laminate dry in some areas and could be pulled off by hand

Now there is a Mfg to avoid forever!!!!
*

Not sure if it was manufacturer or just hydrolysis or even a bad repair based on its limited area and fairly sqare shape..like she was laying on a coral head/rock repair.
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