Adios

[KJ]

The liveaboard folks a couple of slips away from me have put their boat (38’ Bayliner) up for sale. They are in their late sixties.

They have just returned from a run down to Florida and back. Apparently, on the way down they hit some pretty nasty conditions crossing St. Andrew Sound and the wife got the crap scared out of her. She told me that her husband had definitely “lost control” of the boat several times and they were very close to “going over” a couple of times. As soon as they reached Jacksonville she jumped ship and flew to her sister’s. He said that the conditions were pretty rough, but they were never in any danger.

After a week he was able to talk her into coming back to the boat to finish their trip. Their destination was somewhere on Florida’s west coast. They made it as far as Lake Okeechobee, where he agreed to turn around and head back. I chatted with them a couple of days after they where back in their slip and I could tell there was definitely something wrong. So now, a week after returning, their boat is for sale. The husband doesn’t want to sell it and is pretty pissed about the whole thing.

It’s really too bad because I know she was excited about going on their “voyage”. They had been talking about it and planning it for at least a year. They had made several overnight trips down the Waccamaw, but they never poked their noses out on to the ocean.
When we crossed St. Andrew Sound it was pretty rough and I can see where it could be somewhat “scary” in some boats.

On a lighter note, the folk’s right next to me left yesterday to start their “Loop” trip on their Fathom 40. They are heading north to spend a month exploring the Chesapeake area.

I hope they have better luck. KJ

ps casual observation; northbound traffic on the ICW is definitely picking up every day.

 

[jwnall]

That is a sad story. Probably a moral to it, but not sure just what it would be.

 

[Egregious]

Apparently, on the way down they hit some pretty nasty conditions crossing St. Andrew Sound and the wife got the crap scared out of her.

Been there. Under the right (wrong) conditions it is a shallow, white capped, confused mess. It saddens me to quit because of one bad passage.

After our encounter I tried using part of the so called "small craft route." On a mid-rising tide the one shoal isn't a problem. Follow the magenta line as if you're going out into the sound, then head up the Satilla River between Green ICW 29A and Red 2. Follow the marked channel upstream to Floyd Cut. Floyd cut returns you to the Cumberland River and back to the ICW. I see this as a great alternative to going all the way out to sea and rounding the marker.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Thanks for that Mr. KJ. Let me preclude my statements with "I don't know the capabilities of the Captain in question nor the conditions experienced."
There are a few occasions that turn an "oopsy" into a "holy sh*t!". Failure to investigate and analyze the weather, over confident captain and crew and ill found vessel to name a few (I'm sure other, more seasoned mariners will add to the list) BUT by far the BIGGEST reason for a cock-up is a schedule. We were harbor bound in Bridgeport CT. (Yup, the marina that used to be just east of the ferry dock) for three days due to a nor'easter. We DID have to be in a certain place at a certain time but when it's man against the sea, the sea ALWAYS wins.

 

[AusCan]

I think the moral of the story is that some people are just fair weather sailors. Generally, the boat will handle rougher conditions than what the crew can handle. (even a Bayliner)

 

[KJ]

Been there. Under the right (wrong) conditions it is a shallow, white capped, confused mess. It saddens me to quit because of one bad passage.

After our encounter I tried using part of the so called "small craft route." On a mid-rising tide the one shoal isn't a problem. Follow the magenta line as if you're going out into the sound, then head up the Satilla River between Green ICW 29A and Red 2. Follow the marked channel upstream to Floyd Cut. Floyd cut returns you to the Cumberland River and back to the ICW. I see this as a great alternative to going all the way out to sea and rounding the marker.

They actually did turn around and take the “bypass” route.

We anchored overnight in Umbrella Creek between Little Satilla and Satilla Rivers. Nice breeze kept the bugs away. KJ


RTF "There are a few occasions that turn an "oopsy" into a "holy sh*t!". Failure to investigate and analyze the weather, over confident captain and crew and ill found vessel to name a few (I'm sure other, more seasoned mariners will add to the list) BUT by far the BIGGEST reason for a cock-up is a schedule".


Rufus, did I miss some new/old nautical terminology? “Cock-up” = ? KJ

 

[ksanders]

My preaching about rough water seamanship practice is for the Admiral too.

Start out easy, build skill for both the captain and the admiral.

Then there are no suprises.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. KJ. "Cock-up" Sorry, one of my momma's phrases (British war bride). She met daddy in hospital after his evacuation from Omaha Beach (D-Day).
Cock-up - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Blue Heron]

Greetings,
Mr. KJ. "Cock-up" Sorry, one of my momma's phrases (British war bride). She met daddy in hospital after his evacuation from Omaha Beach (D-Day).
Cock-up - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Normandy father!! Thumbs my friend.

 

[BandB]

My preaching about rough water seamanship practice is for the Admiral too.

Start out easy, build skill for both the captain and the admiral.

Then there are no suprises.

It's much like a car. Driver takes a curve quickly and thinks nothing of it. Passenger wants out.

Obviously we agree with you on the Admiral part. If she was better trained, although perhaps he needs to be as well, and realized what the boat really can handle, it would be easier.

If the man wants to try to salvage it, I'd suggest hiring an experienced captain for a trip to both train and comfort them. Perhaps that would help the wife get over some of what happened.

 

[Moonstruck]

I have been through there in all kinds of conditions. You actually are out into the ocean as you make the turn back. I believe the wife was right to figure they were in danger. With the limited experience they had, they never should have been there. There is a shoal that has caught many boaters that have been pushed upon it. It can be so bad out there that the towing services will not come to get you.

I have been on trawlers on the Chesapeake Bay when the short, steep seas made them roll so badly the keel could be seen. The sea entrance to St. Andrews Sound can get like that. They should have held at Jekyll Harbor.

 

[BandB]

I have been through there in all kinds of conditions. You actually are out into the ocean as you make the turn back. I believe the wife was right to figure they were in danger. With the limited experience they had, they never should have been there. There is a shoal that has caught many boaters that have been pushed upon it. It can be so bad out there that the towing services will not come to get you.

I have been on trawlers on the Chesapeake Bay when the short, steep seas made them roll so badly the keel could be seen. The sea entrance to St. Andrews Sound can get like that. They should have held at Jekyll Harbor.

The decision should have been to stay put even if they were safe, which they may not have been. You recognize safety, but also your own personal tolerance for conditions and ability to handle them. If you're someone who panics or gets scared easily then be more conservative.

 

[Wxx3]

It's much like a car. Driver takes a curve quickly and thinks nothing of it. Passenger wants out.

Obviously we agree with you on the Admiral part. If she was better trained, although perhaps he needs to be as well, and realized what the boat really can handle, it would be easier.

If the man wants to try to salvage it, I'd suggest hiring an experienced captain for a trip to both train and comfort them. Perhaps that would help the wife get over some of what happened.

I hope they do something like that.
From the story, it's also not really clear what the conditions actually were.

At thier age, it stop doing something you love, leads to a very sad end.

I truly feel for them.

 

[psneeld]

Except if the local weather didn't account for offshore rollers coming in over the bar...

Granted a reall good skipper might have seen it coming...but once you enter a situation like that...it gets worse but not predictable because it's on the nose then when you 90 degree turn...it is not only on the beam but also past the bar where the rollers could be bigger because the tops weren't reduced by the bar.

Unless someone was there for the planning and the "turn"...you really can't say whether a person should have stayed or pressed on.

3 times this trip NJ to Florida and return...I got into really uncomfortable (not dangerous) situations because the marine forecast winds were greater than 10 knots off.

Fortunately my crew knows me and my experience/decision matrix and lived with my decisions in misery but are usually not scared.

I have seen it plenty of times in life...people who encounter similar situations...but have different opinions of their leader...some suffer in silence and know their leader will NOT put them in danger...and others who have no trust in their leader and become panicky or worse.

Unfortunately...sometimes the combination of these factors come at the wrong time and it seems that's what happened to KJs friends.

 

[Moonstruck]

Yes, it truly is sad. It sounds like a broken dream. They must have planned for this as an idealic way to retire. The decision for one to make the other sell the boat may be the worst possible outcome. It will be hard to overcome the resentment, and repair the relationship.

Many times the captains actions can telegraph the wrong message. When the passenger senses the captain is afraid or doesn't know what to do, it will panic the passenger. I wonder if anyone warned them. It is a known bad place, and the Umbrella cut off is such a simple alternative. It keeps you out of the bad area.

I hope the resentment and bad feeling between them can be repaired. There is much at stake.

 

[psneeld]

I truly wonder what people consider "bad conditions"?

Unless you have constant water coming over the rails...anything less is uncomfortable but hardly dangerous unless your mechanical systems or stowage is really bad.

I know my crew is miserable with anything more than 5 degree rolls and 30 degree rolls really get's them thinking.

But they know I let them know before we leave the dock, when the rolls are coming and pretty close to how bad, how long they will last, what should be done battening down before I get pissed at flying stuff....and finally where they should be for the least amount of stress on them.

They figure if I can predict all that...then they are safe despite being uncomfortable because I can foresee the issues.....usually...when it is worse than predicted....the trust is still there as they know I would warn them if anything more than uncomfortable could be forthcoming.

 

[BandB]

Yes, it truly is sad. It sounds like a broken dream. They must have planned for this as an idealic way to retire. The decision for one to make the other sell the boat may be the worst possible outcome. It will be hard to overcome the resentment, and repair the relationship.

Many times the captains actions can telegraph the wrong message. When the passenger senses the captain is afraid or doesn't know what to do, it will panic the passenger. I wonder if anyone warned them. It is a known bad place, and the Umbrella cut off is such a simple alternative. It keeps you out of the bad area.

I hope the resentment and bad feeling between them can be repaired. There is much at stake.

Wifey B: I remember reading about the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally in 2004 and one of the women decided on the trip that was it for her. For sale sign went up the moment they got across. I think it falls apart for two reasons. First, they don't get adequate training. Second, the passion isn't shared. She convinced against her will, remains unconvinced still.

I feel so sad reading about it. Guess we're so lucky that we've always shared love of the same things and boating is top on our list. But other things too. We knew a girl who always said that she guessed she and her hubby would just have to get divorced when they retired since she wanted to retire to the beach and he wanted to go to the mountains.

I hope they can work it out with each other, but sounds like he'll never get his dreams fulfilled.

 

[windmill29130]

Just looked at the charts because I'll be coming through there in a couple weeks. Definitely looks like it could get sloppy out there at the point. The alternate route looks good and doesn't look to be too far out of the way. As stated numerous times on this forum, it pays to not be in a hurry and better safe than sorry.

 

[psneeld]

Some people dream...when the reality of most dreams hits them in the face...dream over.....

It seems ALL relationships can fall to false expectations...it's usually the rare few that survive everything and that truly is a dream come true.

 

[windmill29130]

There appears to be two alternate routes.

 

[sunchaser]

Sounds like the wife knows her husband really well and recognized he was in over his head. Most of us know directly or read of those who have died thinking they know the sea and their boat. Sadly their guests and crew go down too with this false bravado.

Two years ago we met some people who were turning back after completing 10% of their trip to Alaska. A faulty charging design on their new vessel was too much too bear, especially after the wild ride they had up Johnstone Strait in big winds and opposing currents. They were smart in knowing they lacked the knowledge and sound vessel.

 

[BandB]

Just looked at the charts because I'll be coming through there in a couple weeks. Definitely looks like it could get sloppy out there at the point. The alternate route looks good and doesn't look to be too far out of the way. As stated numerous times on this forum, it pays to not be in a hurry and better safe than sorry.

And if in doubt, access some local information. Boats coming from the other direction. Stop at a marina near the trouble zone and talk to people. Talk to one of the tow boats as they are a source of great information plus the ones to come get you if trouble arises. Then if doubt persists, just don't.

I guess at this point they need to start over. Either by doing the boating correctly or something else. Maybe an RV is their answer. Maybe a cruise ship.

We have years of lake experience, but we took captains classes and hired a captain to train us hands on actually before we even purchased our first boat in Florida. We feel very confident now but we've had excellent teaching and gained experience. Still we will have someone with local knowledge for Alaska. And we recognize our captain still has decades more experience than we do. Now it depends on the boat and the trip whether we'll take it out by ourselves or with captain. But we've put many many hours into developing our skills. WE are presently only 50 Ton Inland Masters. We will reach 50 Ton Near Coastal this summer and 100 Ton Near Coastal around the end of the year. But it's not for the tickets, it's for the knowledge and experience and confidence.

Someone asked what is bad conditions and that varies to everyone. We prefer to do most of our distances outside. I'd say when we first started, bought our first coastal boat, we probably considered anything over 4' to be rough especially with a short period. Now we just don't consider it as enjoyable and it does depend on the boat. In a 44' open sports boat, 6' with 8 seconds isn't dangerous to us but it's just not fun. In a 130' then 6-8' with a 10 second period isn't frightening or scary. Still we will often wait for the next day. But it's not because of fear or skills, just pleasure. Those conditions are ok for a couple of hours, but eight to ten hours like that get tiring and we just don't need to get anywhere that fast. We have friends who don't go outside when it's more than 2'. They just stick to the ICW.

But in spite of all that, the inlets at the wrong time can be uncomfortable and challenging. One has to not get lulled into a comfort. Cruising nicely along think you have it made and forget that you're about to hit a very different area that may have winds and current at odds with each other. That's where practice and experience are so essential. Our captains teaching us never said "I'll take it through here." They always said, "Ok, now I'm going to tell you how to approach and handle this." I remember our first day in the Gulf of Mexico when things got rough, 6-8', and we were close enough to pull into land. But we needed training. So, that's the day we were taught hands on how to handle it from all directions. Our first experience at surfing larger waves. Timing the boat speed to the waves. Learning how things felt at different speeds. We were exhausted but we learned what the boat could handle and what we could. Now if we were considering going out in those same conditions we'd probably stay put but if we were caught out in them, we know we can handle it.

Now many of you have learned over many years. But our first coastal boating was toward the end of 2012 so we're trying to compact and speed our education. From May to September of this year we'll be covering around 7500 nautical miles, 550 or so engine hours, about 70 days of actual movement. Almost like immersion in a language but we covered around 18,000 miles in 2013 in total. Oh but we sure don't put many miles on our cars....lol.

 

[BandB]

One thing we have to be careful about too is remembering what we enjoy isn't for everyone. Not boating. Not the type boat. Not the places. Two of our best friends who live in our guest house on the water will not set foot on any boat in motion or even with the engine running. Finally they have stepped on just to put food on it for us and to look around. The thought of sleeping below deck is horrifying to them. They see a boat take waves and they think that must be scary. And we know that they worry about us every time we go out. But theirs goes back to taking a cruise decades ago and spending the entire time on their dream cruise sea sick. Although with what we know now of cruise ships I strongly suspect it was a sickness other than just sea sickness.

 

[Egregious]

3 times this trip NJ to Florida and return...I got into really uncomfortable (not dangerous) situations because the marine forecast winds were greater than 10 knots off.

If I meet someone on the street and they say they work at NOAA I'm going to punch them in the mouth! That's how my rough passage in St. Andrews happened. NOAA predicting not so heavy wind, and then I contacted a boat who had just come through heading South. He described the passage as "manageable but wet" and I let the "manageable" part convince me to go ahead. It was "OK" until we got to about .5 miles from that outside mark and then suddenly it became very bad. And another note is that bad for our boat might not be bad for another boat. If I was in a Grady White it would have been easy. But getting beat up in a our tub going 6.5 knots is no fun.

Takeaway -- NOAA can be WAY off, and another guy's "manageable" might be your "take a lay day." It is worth noting he was heading south and we were going north and the conditions could be completely different for each direction. And NOAA had lied to me before and my sailor friends all had NOAA horror stories.

Luckily for me, my wife and my two dogs forgave me and want to continue our cruising more than ever!

 

[Egregious]

One thing we have to be careful about too is remembering what we enjoy isn't for everyone.

A friend of mine who is a professional captain says you need to be a masochist. Between weather, shoaling, currents, repairs in exotic locations and all the rest, it takes a special person to even attempt cruising. That's why we took a two month trip just to find out if we could do it and wanted to do it. Yes, and Yes, and now my wife is begging me to quit my job. I'm starting to take her seriously.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. E. Weather forecasting is one of the few jobs you have a 75% chance of being right 50% of the time and still get paid the big bucks. It's not an exact science after all...