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Old 12-28-2018, 10:36 AM   #21
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I never tried going downwind without the engine for several reasons, autopilot and electronics primarily. The benefit I derived was the reduction of engine RPM to maintain the same speed, where I usually could steam a 7 kts. @ 1900rpm I could maintain the same speed at 1200rpm.
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Old 12-28-2018, 12:55 PM   #22
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RE:RE:RE: Adding Spinnaker Rig to Trawler Suggestions

Well all I can say is that ALL the responses have extreme Merit and worthy of consideration.
Just one more thought concerning the Diesel Hybrid set up using Teslas. Yes, I have seen many of the Electric boats and systems being offered on the web these days like the Duffy, or the system by MasterVolt. These are all great systems, but as has been pointed out, they do not supply range, nor any real performance. What I have concluded is that the Marine versions of electric Propulsion is still way behind the technology curve of the Auto Industry mainly in this area: Nominal System Voltage. The majority of the Marine versions are running at 48 Volts utilizing Brushed DC motors which can not develop the Torque Nor the RPM's of the PMSM 3phase AC Induction motors such as the Nissan Leaf or the Tesla. Example: The Nissan Leaf Operates at 360 Volts, and the Tesla varies up to about 550 Volts. Both the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla are rated for up to 10,000 RPM's and these motors have all their rated torque available right from 5 RPM through 10,000 RPM. (Think the higher the system voltage the LOWER the AMP or current draw = Range) They do not have Brushes to wear out and their Japanese made bushings and bearings are rated for a 10,000 hour lifetime.
Now concerning 'Range' well, here again we have a lagging in the Marine versions. It is well known now, that a Tesla will run almost 250 miles at highway speeds on a single charge, and if you stop at a 220 volt charging station, you can recharge while stopping for dinner at a restaurant. In the west coast between Vegas and Cali there are several Tesla charging stations located near major highway exits, and Tesla has virtually thousands of these charging stations planned to be built. Now, let us consider the new Tesla Semi Truck, It too has a 250 mile range and rated to pull 60k pounds of cargo. Budweiser has just ordered 40 of these Semi Trucks, and has actually taken delivery of 4 so far. The problem with Marine Electric propulsion, and what everyone with a boat has to compare to, are the current suppliers which are primitive and extremely over priced for what you get.
This is why, I decided to go and purchase wrecked Nissan Leafs and Wrecked Teslas to pull their Power electronics, Motors and batteries to convert the Systems that I have installed in smaller boats. (I will start a new thread and post pictures and performance data when I get some free time)
No, I do not expect to get 250 NM's range from the Tesla or the Nissan Leaf in a boat, hence the matching up to a Diesel Generator which can produce 220 voltage which can power the level 2 High Voltage Battery chargers, while the vessel is under way.
Keep in mind the Tesla Batteries are rated at 75kW, but can actually perform at 100kW (software limited by factory) of stored energy. Now, with the Motors set to push the vessel at only 10-12 knots, the power demand will be about 18 to 20kW, so even without the Generator running that gives about 4.5 hours of run time.
Add some Solar to assist the house batteries, and maybe 2 wind generators, and have the Generator set with a 2 wire auto start feature for when the HV batteries need supply or if you need to lower the hammer on those 950 HP Teslas to get out of trouble.
Master Volt sells a primitive electric system for about 15k, Without the Batteries! While I have bought an entire Nissan Leaf at auction for 5k, and got everything I needed for my Jet Boat, Motors; Batteries; Cables; almost everything...........So, as with everything else.....where there is a Will....there IS a Way.....
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:22 PM   #23
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Keep in mind the Tesla Batteries are rated at 75kW, but can actually perform at 100kW (software limited by factory) of stored energy. Now, with the Motors set to push the vessel at only 10-12 knots, the power demand will be about 18 to 20kW, so even without the Generator running that gives about 4.5 hours of run time.
20 KW is 26 hp at 100% efficiency. Two of those is 52 hp. You need to do the calculations to show that your 60', 60K displacement trawler will do 10-12 knots on 52 hp. You might also want to check how long the Tesla motors will put out 900 hp before catching fire. 4.5 hours duration is OK for some short dock - dock trips, my little trawler has a duration of 200 hours, and a refueling time of less than an hour.

Not trying to be a naysayer, but recognize that not all of the people who have worked on this problem are idiots, and a few are actually quite clever. No one has yet achieved what you are attempting. Make sure you do your homework before you remove those DDs!
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:34 PM   #24
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I have no doubt there is a way, it's been done. Unless you just care to tinker with systems, which is a great hobby, the question becomes why?



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So, as with everything else.....where there is a Will....there IS a Way.....
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:47 PM   #25
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My sails add about a half-knot with winds from abeam and moving at less than hull speed.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:47 PM   #26
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Sails can be put together very in-expensively. Look at his costs in tulsa. Home - SV Seeker
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:04 PM   #27
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Removing 4-6 tons ballast ( engines, gear units and fuel ) .... you might want to crunch some stability numbers, especially with a sail added.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:51 PM   #28
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Rig addition

Our boat is about as heavy as yours -66,000#- although only 43'. The original design had a small steadying sail but the builders lengthened the wheelhouse, which I felt put the effort too far aft to be useful. The boat had a 1940 Detroit Diesel (eventually replaced with a Cummins) and I was a bit nervous about having a way to get home if/when it gave up the ghost. So we installed a small rig forward, which I will show in a photo once I figure out how to add it. With the sails up we can drop engine revs by 200-300 and keep the same speed; without the engine it was painfully slow but we had steerageway. The sails also provide some stability, but not enough for all conditions, plus the boat isn't designed to heel much, so we added paravanes as well. Cost of the rig was around $25,000. Yes, that's a lot of diesel fuel, although not so much when you are buying it at $2+/liter.
Good luck and smooth seas,
Ric
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:57 PM   #29
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Pretty much everyone has covered what needs to be said, so I'll just add my take.

Two things:
1. Having crossed an ocean last year with pretty steady trade winds, said winds are steady only on a macro scale. Yes, the winds blew steadily for three weeks from the NE thru the SE, but on a minute to minute basis, they aren't that steady.
So a steady 15 kt wind can have voids, like 1 or 2 kts for a portion of a minute or more.
And since you are motoring and not sailing, you would be running over your kite once too often.

2. Electric motive power works great in applications needing torque at low engine rpms, like starting a train rolling or racing a car off the line.
But at top speed, that car doesn't need torque to push it thru the air, just horsepower. Our boats (though not tugs) are like those cars at high speed. Torque isn't needed. We're being pushed thru a fluid.
So, forget hybrid, even without batteries, an electric motive boat would be a big waste of copper (for rhe windings).
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:59 PM   #30
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hello everyone! Yes, i am new here, and just want to say i really enjoy reading all the awesome questions and answers here on this forum.
O.k. So here goes my first question:
I have been reading many threads concerning adding one or more of the following to a traditional trawler for purposes of either sail assist, or sail steadying; get home sail; ride sail; steadying sail, and/or lugger sail. I do understand the many replies in which it has been pointed out that a trawler just does not have what it takes to truly have a sail rig for purely propulsion purposes. Namely hull design, keel, rudder, nor proper ballast. But what i was considering is more of a spinnaker type sail rig for running with the wind.
I have a 60 foot concorde motor yacht, 16' beam and about 60k pounds (loaded and provisioned). Not looking for total sail propulsion via a spinnaker, but more along the lines of assisting the 8v71tti detroits to maybe help save some fuel?
Any ideas or even the flat out no way, would be appreciated.
I do hope that everyone had a wonderful christmas and wish everyone a pleasant stress free (as much as possible) new year.
look up the vessel wonderbird. 65 trawler with a sail assist
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:25 PM   #31
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Wow. This forum is all about folks who know everything about everything and there is no room for those of us who disagree , based upon real life experiences . Good luck. But yes, a trawler steadying sail like those used on the great fishing trawlers of the northeast, where real trawlers live, believe in them.

Yes, I expect the darts and arrows of those who believe themselves to be true yachtsmen and women.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:11 PM   #32
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Wow. This forum is all about folks who know everything about everything and there is no room for those of us who disagree , based upon real life experiences . Good luck. But yes, a trawler steadying sail like those used on the great fishing trawlers of the northeast, where real trawlers live, believe in them.

Yes, I expect the darts and arrows of those who believe themselves to be true yachtsmen and women.
There's experts aplenty in any area of interest, some are worthy of the title others perhaps not. I've not always been received all that well when I ask a question, express an opinion or share experiences either. Don't take it too hard the world is made up of a myriad of differing peoples, find some you like and ignore the others.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:26 PM   #33
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Greetings,
Mr. La. "...cost be somewhat offset...? Sure but it may take you 432 years to realize the break even point. I think you're trying to make a pig's ear out of a silk purse.


Pretty well the same deal with Tesla motor replacement but it may only take 196 years (you could sell the DD's and recoup some of the expense) to "break even".



Sorry to be so blunt but as many have said, fuel is a small expense in the greater scheme of boat ownership as you will most probably find out once you get the bill for your bottom and restoration work.


There is another alternative BUT it might take a substantial crew...


Funny but true.
Welcome aboard !

I have a steadying sail that came with my 48í trawler. A lot of owners cut them off, but I would never do that.

The cost of purchasing by the times/hours you would really use it. Not good.

Best to you
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:39 PM   #34
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An offshore motorboat flying a spinnaker.



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Old 01-04-2019, 04:47 PM   #35
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Avard Fuller flying a another spinnaker on an earlier boat, Pieces of Eight.


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Old 01-04-2019, 04:52 PM   #36
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My FD hull trawler had the option of a power assist sail. At times, I have been tempted to explore adding a mast.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:55 PM   #37
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My FD hull trawler had the option of a power assist sail. At times, I have been tempted to explore adding a mast.
That's similar to what I intend for my whaleboat, I've seen pictures of Tad's Timbercoast with a similar rig also.
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Old 01-04-2019, 05:06 PM   #38
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Who needs a mast and I canít say itís a trawler but... At first we didnít know what we were looking at as we were leaving St. Maartin. By the time I got the camera out, she had out distanced her self from us. The kite was on a power cat of about ~40'? Arenít some commercial vessels experimenting with something similar? Looked like a lot of power down wind.
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Old 01-04-2019, 05:10 PM   #39
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I watched a 45 ft wood ketch flying a spinnaker single handed. It was a beautiful sight right up till he lost control. His boat was being dragged sideways rail down. He finally cut a sheet line to save his boat. Flying a spinnaker is not for the inexperienced or short handed.
Seriously buy more diesel. For your 60 ft 60000 lbs vessel expect a spinnaker about 3 to 4000 square ft. In the light winds 2 to 5 mph you will be getting 3 to 4 lbs per sq ft of sail . That's in the neighborhood of 9,000 to 20,000 lbs of force pretty big neighborhood.
Best of luck.
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Old 01-04-2019, 05:14 PM   #40
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I watched a 45 ft wood ketch flying a spinnaker single handed. It was a beautiful sight right up till he lost control. His boat was being dragged sideways rail down. He finally cut a sheet line to save his boat. Flying a spinnaker is not for the inexperienced or short handed.
Seriously buy more diesel. For your 60 ft 60000 lbs vessel expect a spinnaker about 3 to 4000 square ft. In the light winds 2 to 5 mph you will be getting 3 to 4 lbs per sq ft of sail . That's in the neighborhood of 9,000 to 20,000 lbs of force pretty big neighborhood.
Best of luck.
This is why I never used my parachute with the engine shut down, I could always turn into the chute if necessary. It was all hydraulic anyway with a collapsing line on a winch for retrieval.
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