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Old 01-18-2016, 06:47 PM   #81
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Marin wrote;
"maybe the engine(s) can't go exactly where you want but have to more forward or aft. This can screw up that ideal trim so the solution is---- ballast"

Not IMO. If you do it right you move things around untill trim is right ... per the designer. If you can move something like a battery to bring trim up to the designer's spec it's far better.
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Old 01-18-2016, 07:11 PM   #82
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Greetings,
Mr. A. You're a little out of order with your last post. Mr. CP raised an extremely valid point which must be considered on any vessel. As has been mentioned several times already in this thread, anything one puts on board will affect trim.
If one adds, say more batteries or a generator and cannot position them in an appropriately balanced location, what is one to do? How about the change over from line to chain rode? Sure, move your tool boxes around to trim but you're still using your "useful" items as ballast. What if you're like my BIL who considers a screw driver as his tool kit? No spares, no roll of tape, nada. How do you offset that new gennie to cure the 5 degree list?
Further to Mr. B's etymology comment...
ballast (n.) "heavy material used to steady a ship," 1520s, from Middle English bar "bare" (see bare; in this case "mere") + last "a load, burden," or borrowed from identical terms in North Sea Germanic and Scandinavian (compare Old Danish barlast, 14c.). "Mere" because not carried for commercial purposes. Dutch balg-last "ballast," literally "belly-load," is a folk-etymology corruption.
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Old 01-18-2016, 07:20 PM   #83
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If you can move something like a battery to bring trim up to the designer's spec it's far better.
I don't disagree with that at all, Eric. That should certainly be the strived-for solution.

But the world of product design and manufacturing is full of examples of "perfect" design being outvoted by user needs and so the design is compromised and a sometimes less-than-ideal solution is the only solution.

I don't know anything about Nordic Tugs other than what they look like and most of the owners I've met really love them. So I have no idea what led the company to put a fuel tank in the lazarette of the NT32. It would be interesting to find out. I suspect it has a fairly logical (from their perspective) "We had to put it there because....." reason.

I'm making this up, but one might have a really nice express cruiser design in which the engines were placed at X-position for just the right balance and trim at speed. But.... putting them in this position would make one of the living spaces--- let's say the forward cabin--- too short to do what the designer wants to do in with it because he knows that potential buyers would really like the boat if the forward cabin had such-and-such features and space in it.

The forward cabin could be made this way if the engines were moved aft four feet or whatever. That's fine but now the cruise trim's screwed up. Moving a pair of heavy engines aft is more than can be compensated for by putting some batteries farther forward, and maybe there's no practical space up forward for a water tank or fuel tank or whatever anyway. But it turns out there is room up there for a hunk of lead or concrete or some shot bags and their presence won't mess up any other aspect of the design of the forward part of the boat.

So you end up with an express cruiser that makes potential buyers happy because it has a really cool forward cabin design and the trim of the boat at cruise is what it should be because moving the engines aft was compensated for by putting some ballast up forward.

Now I think you're totally correct, Eric, the ideal solution is to compensate for these kinds of design compromises by doing something that is practical to the boat's systems, not just sticking non-functioning weight somewhere because it's needed to keep the trim correct. Unfortuantely reality tends to trump theory pretty much all the time which is why we see things like concrete or lead or bags of shot placed in boats to maintain the desired trim.

There's also the reality of cost. Getting really clever with functional weight distribution can end up costing a fair amount of money depending on how much more time consuming or complex it makes the manufacturing process. Where chucking a bag of shot down in the forefoot takes no time at all and the only expense is the bag of shot. In a competitive world, this sort of cost control can make or break a sale.
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Old 01-18-2016, 07:59 PM   #84
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Greetings,
Mr. A. You're a little out of order with your last post. Mr. CP raised an extremely valid point which must be considered on any vessel. As has been mentioned several times already in this thread, anything one puts on board will affect trim.
If one adds, say more batteries or a generator and cannot position them in an appropriately balanced location, what is one to do? How about the change over from line to chain rode? Sure, move your tool boxes around to trim but you're still using your "useful" items as ballast. What if you're like my BIL who considers a screw driver as his tool kit? No spares, no roll of tape, nada. How do you offset that new gennie to cure the 5 degree list?
Further to Mr. B's etymology comment...
ballast (n.) "heavy material used to steady a ship," 1520s, from Middle English bar "bare" (see bare; in this case "mere") + last "a load, burden," or borrowed from identical terms in North Sea Germanic and Scandinavian (compare Old Danish barlast, 14c.). "Mere" because not carried for commercial purposes. Dutch balg-last "ballast," literally "belly-load," is a folk-etymology corruption.
RT, RT, RT - Not unlike Craig your mind too is fuzzy regarding the type of "added" ballast I'm not in favor of. P-l-e-a-s-e carefully read my post #80 to Craig. If fuzziness persists I recommend the same dosage of same medication I prescribed for Craig. Again I will clearly say - the only - "added" ballast or ballast adjustment I am not in favor of is dead-weight otherwise useless "added" ballast such as concrete, lead, etc.
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Old 01-18-2016, 08:08 PM   #85
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Greetings,
Mr. A. I'm not misinterpreting your point of "useless" ballast, only your definition. If your so-called "dead weight" corrects an otherwise un-correctable (by rearranging on board movable items) list then by definition, it's not useless unless you want to live life on a constant slant.
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Old 01-18-2016, 08:30 PM   #86
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Greetings,
Mr. A. I'm not misinterpreting your point of "useless" ballast, only your definition. If your so-called "dead weight" corrects an otherwise un-correctable (by rearranging on board movable items) list then by definition, it's not useless unless you want to live life on a constant slant.
IMO - If only concrete or lead types of useless material (except for its per cubic inch heavyweight) is needed, in order to correctly maintain trim... then sell the boat and find one that is correctly self weighted so that the then minimal changes in ballast weight positioning can be accomplished by placement alterations of items having useful-uses... in addition to their ballast weight capabilities.

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Old 01-18-2016, 08:35 PM   #87
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"If you can move something like a battery to bring trim up to the designer's spec it's far better."

Let me correct this with consideration of a 35' - 45' boat

"If you can move something like a battery to bring trim up to the designer's spec, you didnt have a trim problem."
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:18 PM   #88
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With fully loaded fuel and water tanks, the Coot is stern-heavy. That's one reason I fully load only two of its four fuel tanks. Now if loading for a very long cruise, there would be a need to put food stuffs in the forward cabin's nooks and crannies. Another 100 or so feet of chain would also be helpful.
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Old 01-18-2016, 10:07 PM   #89
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"If you can move something like a battery to bring trim up to the designer's spec it's far better."

Let me correct this with consideration of a 35' - 45' boat

"If you can move something like a battery to bring trim up to the designer's spec, you didnt have a trim problem."
barnacles,
The battery was just an off the wall example of something heavy. If you've got a bigger boat move more batteries or something heavier. Use your imagination.

Mark,
Coot's probably heavy enough (like Willy) so add (if you must) 200' of line instead of 100' of chain. More useful.
Where do you go in the Bay area that you need extra fuel?
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:11 PM   #90
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Mark,
...
Where do you go in the Bay area that you need extra fuel?
Full fuel load needed if going non-stop to Seattle. Otherwise, a half-load is good for at least nine months for mostly day trips in the SF estuary. Best fuel-stop here is a half-day's voyage. Best to plan an overnight trip and enjoy a local restaurant.
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:13 PM   #91
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IMO - As long as hull design and shape / superstructure design / interior parcels' locations / bilge-equipment & storage-spaces / engines / tankage / furnishings / as well as "fixed" initial ballast (i.e. what the designers engineered into a boat) are all taken into the "weight account" of a vessel while designing and building... then there should be no need for "added" ballast by the owner to then establish correct trim needs.

Being the thread starter and OP here I've been amused at some of the posts offered. My intended definition of "added" ballast was not what the original boat design engineers had in place as "fixed" ballast (i.e. trim weight in keel or other location)... but rather it means just as the thread title states ADDED ballast... meaning ballast that a boat owner ADDS in guess and by god test sequences because the original boat design was not ample to properly trim or maneuver the boat.

Additionally, it seems that there must be some way[s] to figure out how to (if it is truly necessary) "add" ballast via placement of new or redistribution of existing features in the boat that can further enhance useful/usable conditions in and about the boat. The placement of lead bars, concrete sacks, bird shot sacks, poured concrete squares just seems soooo non productive regarding usage of such limited space inside a boat.

I can't help but wonder why most if not all of the high quality production boat manufacturers' boats seldom if ever had substantial trim problems wherein "added" ballast was required to properly trim their boats. Could it be high quality engineering procedures as well as ample prototype-boat tests to make sure all weight positioning increments are sufficiently handled before major production numbers of boats came off the line?

I believe boats should be designed with no need for owners to "add" ballast to produce correct trim and handling conditions. Especially with modern computer assist design programs!
Clearly, it's because of the 3 bladed prop.

Though it could also be the anchor.

Wait, maybe it's an issue of needing a stern line, but then that depends on whether the line is flat or braided.

Now, if it's braided flat line, then 2507 pounds of ballast must be added 22.73 feet from the anchor.

But if it's a Rocha, made with Chinese steel, subtract 8.3 lbs of ballast and move the ballast 1.3 feet to starboard.

Unless, you have an off center queen berth, as I do. If that's the case, you must get one of those fuel splatter shield from Hopcar. Then, remember to only fuel on odd numbered days.

Though, if you need fuel on an even numbered day. That's no problem as long as you change all the above numbers by 1.64%.

So, just multiply the above by 1.0164 ,
But if you do that, it's better to get fuel on a Saturday. As there is less bio additives at week end.

Unless you are buying fuel from a location that celebrates the sabbath on Saturday, not sunday.

Then, just move the ballast aft 4.2 feet, and redo all the above.

I hope that helps.
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:28 PM   #92
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Well said!
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:09 AM   #93
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Clearly, it's because of the 3 bladed prop.

Though it could also be the anchor.

Wait, maybe it's an issue of needing a stern line, but then that depends on whether the line is flat or braided.

Now, if it's braided flat line, then 2507 pounds of ballast must be added 22.73 feet from the anchor.

But if it's a Rocha, made with Chinese steel, subtract 8.3 lbs of ballast and move the ballast 1.3 feet to starboard.

Unless, you have an off center queen berth, as I do. If that's the case, you must get one of those fuel splatter shield from Hopcar. Then, remember to only fuel on odd numbered days.

Though, if you need fuel on an even numbered day. That's no problem as long as you change all the above numbers by 1.64%.

So, just multiply the above by 1.0164 ,
But if you do that, it's better to get fuel on a Saturday. As there is less bio additives at week end.

Unless you are buying fuel from a location that celebrates the sabbath on Saturday, not sunday.

Then, just move the ballast aft 4.2 feet, and redo all the above.

I hope that helps.
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Old 01-19-2016, 06:14 AM   #94
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Amazing that pet theories/opinions used to describe some normal boat issues are amplified to make a big deal out of things that often deal in the single digit percents...sometimes in the tenths of a percent.


OK...even if these ideas, opinions, theories, whatever do affect one's boat...even entire classes of boats....it doesn't mean it affects all boats in the same way or even skippers in the same way.


Tad posted that at displacement speeds, running a bit bow down is more economical yet a bit unsightly. Well....many skipper's I know will try and trim that out....who wants an ugly boat? Yet other's will let it ride for the sake of economy. Neither is right or wrong...so adding ballast is neither right or wrong DESPITE what others may "feel". AND, it is within the designers original concept...go figure.


So beat your heads against the wall trying to convince others about things that are neither right or wrong, don't affect everyone, and in most matters don't matter a smidgeon less than fly poop....but then again...tis TF.....
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Old 01-19-2016, 06:44 AM   #95
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Use your imagination.
You mean like this Eric?

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Clearly, it's because of the 3 bladed prop.

Though it could also be the anchor.

Wait, maybe it's an issue of needing a stern line, but then that depends on whether the line is flat or braided.

Now, if it's braided flat line, then 2507 pounds of ballast must be added 22.73 feet from the anchor.

But if it's a Rocha, made with Chinese steel, subtract 8.3 lbs of ballast and move the ballast 1.3 feet to starboard.

Unless, you have an off center queen berth, as I do. If that's the case, you must get one of those fuel splatter shield from Hopcar. Then, remember to only fuel on odd numbered days.

Though, if you need fuel on an even numbered day. That's no problem as long as you change all the above numbers by 1.64%.

So, just multiply the above by 1.0164 ,
But if you do that, it's better to get fuel on a Saturday. As there is less bio additives at week end.

Unless you are buying fuel from a location that celebrates the sabbath on Saturday, not sunday.

Then, just move the ballast aft 4.2 feet, and redo all the above.

I hope that helps.
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:36 AM   #96
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barnacles,
The battery was just an off the wall example of something heavy. If you've got a bigger boat move more batteries or something heavier. Use your imagination.

Mark,
Coot's probably heavy enough (like Willy) so add (if you must) 200' of line instead of 100' of chain. More useful.
Where do you go in the Bay area that you need extra fuel?
Not necessarily for everyone. That is YOUR opinion...not fact.

Most with all chain will have whatever chain they need for normal, convenient anchoring. For those once in a blue moon time....cruisers will add more chain stored someplace else (otherwise it would just be part of their everyday rode) or attach a nylon extension.

But to keep harping that your opinion somehow is "better" or "more useful" just makes every cruiser I discuss it with just shake their head...even the guys who use combo rodes and understand why others use all chain because of choices not even close to using the words "more useful".
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:41 AM   #97
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psneeld you seem to be of the opinion that if it's my opinion it's not fact. Well obviously that's YOUR opinion.

I refer you to the recent anchoring thread.
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Old 01-19-2016, 02:46 PM   #98
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And that thread is the final word?


Seems to me.... others place more importance on other aspects of anchoring than just MAX holding.


Therefore your emphasis on what you think is important is possibly for them and for sure meaningless for my boat.


I don't think your opinions are wrong...just not applicable all the time or for all vessels... therefore I try to make sure those trying to learn about boats get all sides.
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Old 01-19-2016, 08:49 PM   #99
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I have to agree with psneeld - in that - The Newbies need to hear every side of every boating story. Cumulatively there are many hundred very experienced mariners, thousands of different boat types owned now or previously by we experienced mariners, and a gazillion different things that happened to chat about and maybe hope to teach a bit and surely hope to learn a bit... no matter how many decades we've been on the water.
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Old 01-20-2016, 07:09 AM   #100
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"I have to agree with psneeld - in that - The Newbies need to hear every side of every boating story. Cumulatively there are many hundred very experienced mariners, thousands of different boat types owned now or previously by we experienced mariners, and a gazillion different things that happened to chat about and maybe hope to teach a bit and surely hope to learn a bit... no matter how many decades we've been on the water."

BUT, BUT, BUT , the broker said it would be fine!
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